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Interview with Wilma Simpson

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Interview with Wilma Simpson

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Interview with Wilma Simpson

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  • Simpson 1 WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA TOMORROW BLACK ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Interviewee: Wilma Howell Simpson also present Morris Simpson (MS) Interviewer: Lorraine Crittenden County: Jackson Date: May 19, 1986 Duration: 1:24:39 I: [inaudible] S: Yes, in my house. My grandmother come from Georgia, Clayton, Georgia. I: Clayton, Georgia? S: Yes. I: What about your grandfather? S: He was born and reared in North Carolina. I: All right. Would you please trace your family tree as far back as you can remember, beginning on your father's side? S: Granddaddy Howell, Grandmother Howell. I: What were their first names? S: Oh, Berry Howell, Chrisenberry Howell. I: Christin? S: Berry. I: OK, let 's begin again. s: OK, Grandma Turk. Nancy. I: Nancy Turk? S: Yeah, Nancy Caroline Turk. Chrisenberry Howell was the son. I: So, Nancy Turk was your great-grandmother? S: Yes, and Grandpa, Chrisenberry Howell, was my Granddaddy. Erman Howell was my daddy. I: OK, so Chrisenberry Howell was your granddaddy and he was the son of Nancy Turk. Where did your great-grandmother come from? Simpson 2 S: I guess Jackson County. I: Jackson County? S: I never heard of her being nowhere else except Jackson County. I: OK. Your grandfather? S: Grandfather Howell? He was my grandpa. I: Chrisenberry? S: Chrisenberry, my granddaddy, my daddy's daddy. I: Now, where did he live? S: He lived in Bryson City all my days. I: Was he born there? S: I don't know. Grandma Turk was a slave owned by Wesley Enloe. I: What was her first name? S: Nancy Caroline. I: Nancy Caroline Turk. What do you remember about your great-grandmother? S: I can remember her visiting with grandma and grandpa when I was a small child and all and how much we enjoyed her sitting around. She’s very old and feeble then and all. I: What do you remember about your great - grandfather, her husband? S: I really didn't know him. It was just hearing about him. I: Do you know his name? S: Clark Turk. I: Do you know if he was from western North Carolina? S: I imagine so. I: So, you didn't know your great-grandfather at all. Well, what about your grandfather on your father's side? S: Chrisenberry Howell. Simpson 3 I: Chrisenberry Howell. Where did he live? S: Bryson City. I: Now, was he a slave also? S: No, he really wasn't a slave but he was about five years old, not old enough to be a slave boy or anything, just living at the Enloes with his mother. I: As he grew older and the slaves were free, what did he do? S: He stayed on with the Enloes until he married in 1880. I: 1880? So, was he working on the farm or what? S: Yes, living and working on the farm. I: Now, did they provide his house, food, or was it sharecropping? S: No, he just lived there and they provided everything. I: What else can you tell me about Grandpa Howell? S: Well, he married. I: He married? S: Married while he was still there and they gave him his start. I remember him saying his horse or whatever when he left there. I don't know that him and Grandma ever lived there or if they went off in another area to themselves or not. I: Now, what did Grandpa Howell do for a living? S: He farmed and ditched. He kept the cemetery in Bryson City, the cemetery up on the hill. He kept both of them. But the big cemetery up on the hill, he was a grave digger. I: I see. S: And took care of that cemetery up on the hill, you know next to the school house up on the hill. On School House Hill, that cemetery. I: Do you remember if the produce from the farm was used just for the family or did he sell it? S: Well, sometimes he did sharecropping on the Bryson land, that he would, you know it was divided or whatever and all like that and everything. He raised enough for his own cattle, which he always had three or four cows and five or six horses, and he traded. Simpson 4 I: What do you mean he traded? S: Grandpa was a great trader, traffic and trade, horses and cattle and whatever. I: Oh, I see. S: He was also a veterinarian. Grandpa Howell was a veterinarian. I: A veterinarian? S: Yes. I: Where did he learn to do that? S: Well, he said his daddy taught him I don't know that he actually taught him, but anyway I guess as far back history he knew that's what his daddy did. So, Granddaddy was a veterinarian. He'd go and doctor cattle and horses and whatever in that line of work. I: How did your grandfather get the knowledge to be a veterinarian? S: I imagine just self- taught and all because people would come far and near to get him to go doctor on their cattle or their horses or whatever needed to be doctored on in the veterinarian life, but he did it. I: So he was quite a busy man? S: Yes, worked all the time until he retired and was older, farming and ditched. I: And horse trading. S: Horse trading, he was the janitor at the courthouse. I: In Bryson City? S: In Bryson City, and he took care of the White cemetery as well as dug every grave for the Blacks as long as he was able to. He was the grave digger over in our cemetery and theirs and all. I: At Watkins? S: At Watkins, yes, and he kept the White cemetery, of course that was a salary job, at the White cemetery. But our cemetery, he kept it you know. He kept it cleaned off. I guess that might've been where Memorial Day, you know, the decorations in the cemetery, I guess that's when it started. I imagine he might've started it. I don't know. He and your Granddaddy Dehart, they worked together, ditched together, and all that kind of stuff together. I: I see. Now did your grandmother have to work outside the home since your grandfather, Chrisenberry, had so many jobs? S: Oh, yes, Grandma worked. Simpson 5 I: What did she do? S: Worked. She mostly washed for people. She'd have her people that she'd wash for. I: Did she go to them? S: Yes, she went to them and of course she brought bundles home in later days and all, but she used to always go to the people’s home and wash for them and all. I: How did she wash at their homes? S: Washboards outside and washpots and all that... water in the tubs and all. It was all outside, doing and all. Nobody had a washing machine back then when Grandma Howell washed for people. I: Did she go everyday? S: Mostly everyday in my days. I: Who was taking care of her children while she was out working? S: I don't imagine that she did too much of it when her children were growing up. Now you remember her babies was eleven years older than me. They were grown then when she went to the homes in Bryson City down there, but of course before they moved down to Bryson City she went places and washed for people, maybe occasionally. But I could remember her telling me that when her children were growing up how she would work in the field. Now she helped Granddaddy in the field. She helped him, even in my days, he would help him in the field because they lived on farms of their own. I: They owned the farm? S: From time to time. They owned their own farm and worked their own farms. She said she'd work and help him in the field all week long and did her washing and ironing, and her patching on Saturday and took her children to church on Sunday. I: So, they worked from sun up to sun down? S: Yes, from sun up to sun down. Absolutely, and then night I guess. I: Now, would you say, if you remember, that your grandmother and grandfather made enough so that the family was comfortable? S: Oh yes. Yes, they made enough that their family was comfortable. They raised all of their food, let's put it that way. Potatoes, beans, corn, Grandma did a lot of canning and then they had hogs and they had cows for their milk and butter. So, I just imagine they, as far as food was concerned, that they got along very well. I: Did they own their own home? Simpson 6 S: Oh, yes. I: Now, where was the home? S: Well, you know their home was Bryson City. Well, they lived at different places. Now back in their early married days only lived up around the Cherokee... I think they call it Adams Creek. I: Adams Creek? There's a place called Adams Creek? S: Yeah, Adams Creek. Then when they left there, I don't know actually when they come to Bryson City to live because they had lived at Governors Island. I don’t know if they come from Governors Island to Bryson City. But, when they come to Bryson City, you know going over toward [Sherrill] gap way what we call Lands Creek. Now they use to live over in that area and then they lived up Bryson Branch above Birdies. They lived there. Then when they left there they come down to the home place down there on Bryson Branch. I: Now you said that they lived near Adams Creek in Cherokee. Was your grandmother an Indian? S: Granddaddy's Howell's mother was as he called a Blackhawk Indian or Hawk Indian. They owned their place in Adams Creek. I: I was wondering. S: No that wasn't given property to them. I: So, I was wondering how they were allowed to unless they were Indian or had so much Indian in them. You said that they owned their place in Adams Creek and that she was a Blackhawk Indian. Now was your grandfather an Indian? I: No, just whatever he might've been an 8th, 4th or whatever. I don't know what percentage Indian she was, but I just remember hearing him say that there was Blackhawk Indian in them. Now what Blackhawk Indian is, I don't know. I: So, at that time they didn't go by the amount of Indian you had in you in order to live on the reservation? S: No, I don't know that Adams Creek area was a part of the reservation. I just don't know. I don't know whether that was considered reservation or not. I can tell you this. Where the Rockhill Church was and the school, that later on the government probably included that as part of the reservation when the blacks were moved away from up there. My granddaddy had given them that part off of his farm for a school for the black children and a church for them. I: Now, which grandfather are you referring to? S: Granddaddy Howell. See cause he and Grandma Howell lived at Adams Creek. They were the ones who live at Adams Creek. I: so, there was a school and a church? Simpson 7 S: There was a school and a church. It's what they call Birdtown. I: Right. S: School and church, that property come off my Granddaddy Howell's farm on Adams Creek. I: Oh, I see. Now Birdtown, now is incorporated and is a part of the reservation. S: Because in later years you know when they had the part Indians that had married into the black race, and when they had to leave the reservation because of not having enough Indians in them and all but that was the school that they went to that come off of my granddaddy 's property. They had a public school there. You know, [inaudible] taught there, Aunt May's sister taught there, our cousin Rosalynn Gunnis taught there in that school and Uncle Bill Mosely, I guess. I: Were there other Black families in this Adams Creek then? S: Oh, yes, up in that Birdtown community. Up at Coopers Creek and all. See your granddaddy, Uncle Will, and Aunt Kelly lived there. Lillie and them went to that school up there and then Uncle George, your Uncle George's children. Your Granddaddy’s brother, they went to that school up there. see, there was a gang of them. Darryl Thomas and them had a dozen of kids. There was a big crowd. Just about as many went to that school up there as they did to our school in Bryson City. That school wasn't done away with until after they moved from out there. I: So, eventually because the residents didn't have enough Indian blood they had to move and so, then you think that's about that time that your great-grandparents moved to Bryson City? S: Oh, no! They owned their property. They had already moved before then, honey. They sold their farm up there. They had moved from up there. See that Coleman crowd and all that was living up on the reservation property, they didn't move until... what year was it Morris? Helen Larry was teaching up there when Laura was born in 1934. They had moved after then. S: Now Helen Larry might have been their last teacher. I guess she was. I guess Helen Larry was the last teacher up there. Now, I could be mistaken about that, but I guess she was the last teacher. I: What was your Grandma Howell's name? S: Sarah Elizabeth Powell. I: Powell, OK. Now tell me what you remember about your grandmother. S: Starting back, I don't remember Grandma's mother. Grandma told me that her mother died when my daddy was three months old and he was born in 1891. I: Your father was? S: My father was born in 1891 and Grandma said her mother died when my daddy was sitting alone. Well, he was born in June so she had to die in the early part of the year of 1891. Grandma's daddy, see, Simpson 8 Grandma was half white. Her daddy, she come from Georgia. I told you that. She was born and she called it the last year of the surrender, 1865. I: She was referring to the Emancipation Proclamation? S: Yes. She said that when that come she was born in June the 22nd, or whatever. In other words, her mother said that she was on the block to be sold with her baby in her arms, when they were free. I: Did you ever meet her mother? S: No, she died, you know I told you. I: You said three months. S: My daddy was about three months old when Grandma's mother died. See, she died in, my daddy was born 1891 in June and Grandma said he was just a baby sitting alone when her mother died. I: Ok. So, after the Emancipation and they weren't sold what did your Grandmother do? S: Well, see she was a baby then in Georgia. Grandma was born in Clayton, Georgia. I don’t know how long her mother might've remained in Georgia but Grandma said when she wanted to come to North Carolina her brothers were already here, Uncle Will and Uncle Anderson and maybe the rest of them. I don't know because see Rabin, Georgia, it's just across the line from Franklin. Evidently her mother knew Grandma Turk, Granddaddy's mother. Or it might've been through her brothers. I don’t know because she lived right at the foot of the Cowee Mountain. When she was ready to come to North Carolina her mother told her she could come to Mother Turk’s. I guess her brothers might've brought her. I don't know that Grandma Powell or whatever her name was, I don't know Grandmother's mother maiden name. I don't know whether she come, I mean I don't know when she come, only thing is when Grandma told me when she died in 1891. I: Even though your Grandpa and Grandma didn't have an education. S: They didn’t get to go to school. I: They left a school for the black children in the Birdtown area. Now when they had their children did the children get an education? S: Well, all of them, mostly. Now, Uncle Landon, I don't think he could read or write, simply because he didn't want to go to school and I don't think they could make him. That was their oldest son. Then of course, Uncle John was pretty well raised. The second son and all, and of course, Uncle John would read even in my days and study and things like that. Then Uncle Haines, I guess was their next one. He could read and I imagine Uncle Landon and Uncle Thomas was the only two of their children that never did go to school enough to learn to read. I: Do you remember how many children they had? S: Oh yeah. There were eleven boys and three girls, fourteen. Simpson 9 I: Fourteen children. How far did the school go at that time? What was the highest grade? S: I imagine that the school did go on through what we call grammar school in their days and all because you know Aunt Vera went on and finished and taught school when I was a little girl. So, I imagine they were at least grammar grade education. The main thing about it was that two or three month school terms was all they had back when her older children, just two or three months of school term. I: So, what did they do the rest of the year? S: I guess helped on the farm. I guess so until they were grown and left home. I: And your mother was one of these children? S: My mother? I: Your father? S: My father was one of them. My father went on to school enough that he was able to read and write. I don't know how far he went in school but he was able to you know. I: Well, tell me what you remember about your father. S: Well, my father, Erman Howell, went to, I guess he stayed in Bryson City probably until about 1912. He went to Cincinnati and worked in the glass factory, he called it, until he went in World War I. I: Why did he leave Bryson City? S: Well, I don't know at the time he left, see me being born in Ohio and all. He had to be up there in 1914. I: Right. S: And of course, my brother was born in 1913 and from what I heard through them he went to Ohio to work before my brother was born because he was four months old I think, or whatever, before he saw him. He was born maybe while he was in Ohio and all. I just imagine it was like migrating to where there was better work because he worked in what they call the glass factory. Uncle John worked up there, Uncle Roy, was there. Now those three I know was in Ohio just before World War I. My daddy went in the service, World War I from Ohio. I: So, both of you, you and your brother, were born by then? S: No, Ulysses was born in Bryson City. I: But I 'm saying when he went to the service. S: He went into the service. We entered in 1914. Well, he must've went in after I was a year or so old because Grandma Howell went up and got us because he and Mama separated. He went in the service and Grandma Howell brought Ulysses and myself to Bryson City. Simpson 10 I: Did your mother stay in Ohio? S: She stayed in Ohio. She stayed up there until I guess 1940 or 42 or something like that. I: So, your grandma S: Raised us. I: Now which grandmother is this? S: My daddy's mother reared me and my brother. I: What was her name? S: Sarah. I: Sarah Helen? S: She reared me and my brother. I: Did your father come back home after the war? S: Yes, 1919, he came back to Grandma Helen. I don't remember how long he stayed in Bryson City because my next remembrance of him was in Canton. So, evidently he went to Canton and worked over in that area. I: And you stayed on with your grandmother? S: I stayed on. No, I never did go live with Papa or Mama, neither one of them. I stayed on with my grandmother. I: Were you able to get an education? S: Yes, as far as I could. I finished elementary school in Bryson City. I: Now, by your time was the school year longer than two or three months? S: Yes, we had seven months of school in Bryson City at one time. But I remember when they cut us back to seven months or eight months or something like that, when I was going to grammar school and all like that. We never went up to a nine month schooling in Bryson City while I was growing up, but of course with the other children coming along. See back during the Depression, schools were poor and all the counties were poor. I guess the county did the paying instead the state or however and all like that. So, our school was cut back drastically because of funds. I: Now, was this just the black schools or all of the schools? S: As far as I know the white school went on their full term. It was just the black schools. Simpson 11 I: What else do you remember about the Depression? S: The best I remember it. I know there wasn't any work much to be had, and back during the Depression had it not been for people raising their own food, and all that, I don't know what the situation would've been. I: You said your grandparents had their own farm and animals and so forth. How about clothing? Did your grandmother sew? S: Well, yes, Grandma could sew, but you know, your clothing was meager. You were kept clean, you had enough to stay clean, for instance whenever we came in from school, my school dresses were washed. We would pull off our school clothes and put on something to play in. Then you had your Sunday dress and shoes. I went barefoot when I wanted to in the summer time but as far as having to go barefoot, I never had to. I always had a change of clothes. I: Now, you said that your grandparents had enough food and the work was scarce during the Depression, what else stands out in your mind about the Depression? S: I don't guess too much of anything at all. As I said that, we fared very well and of course by that time I was babysitting and doing little odd jobs myself. Sometimes had a regular little job and all. I: Well, did your family ever have to go on relief? s: No, not that I ever knew of back in those days. I: Were you aware of the stamps for the food rationing? S: That was in World War II, the stamps and food rationing and all. See I was grown and working then. When of course things were a little hard to come by, especially by then. Granddaddy died before World War II. Grandma died in 1943 after the war started. The only thing was the scarcity. You know how hard it was to get your meat, your lard and things you seasoning. That was the thing that was hard for me to come by. I: So, the stamps were used for that? S: The stamps were used for that. Of course, we could get vegetables and things like that. But butter and meat and things like that, seasoning, your lard and things like that you just had to catch as you could. I: So, you had to stand in line f or that? S: Not necessarily stand in line. You just had to catch it when the stores had it. They got it so scarcely. I'll have to say this, it depended on who you were, say for instance the white people. They got all the choice meats when the things come in, even in some of their homes they just had it hoarded and all that. But we would just have to catch it as we could and if you didn’t have a real good friend in the grocery stores where these items were sold, then there just weren’t nothing to save back for you. I: You mean a white friend? Simpson 12 S: Yes, or maybe the butcher or maybe the storecare or something like that and all because I've seen them reach under their counter and bring out things for some people and all. Then others not get it. I've had people tell me right here back in Jackson County when their babies were coming along, how they had to go hunt for Carnation milk. The milk was... they couldn’t get it sometimes. I: What other discrimination did you see when you were growing up? S: When I was growing up there was a man in Bryson City that owned a little cafe and he had a window, that we could go to and get an ice cream cone on the outside, an ice cream cone or a hot dog. They were both five cents in my days. He'd see us coming walking across the street, you know from the depot over to those buildings right across the street there and all. His little old joint was in there somewhere and he'd see us coming and he’d raise that window and say "What you want!" before we even got there and you tell him because we didn't have anywhere else to go. Slam it down and go get it and raise the window and hand it back to you! Discrimination was terrible in my days. Back of the buses and of course the train and all that and everything. You knew exactly where to go to keep from being insulted. If you went in an area where you weren't supposed to go you would be told to move back. Even though there would be white people taking that back seat which they allotted to the colored people and all, if anybody stood up, you did. The bus driver would tell you to move to the back but he didn’t tell the ones that was on that back seat to get up, that seat is supposed to be for the black people and all. You stood up and let them sit on the seat that was supposed to be for you to sit on. I: Do you remember the black people voting when you were younger? S: Yes, they voted on full scale back when I was a child. Now, they were told, I can remember hearing them say you had to, of course, not with my Grandparents, but their children had to read the Constitution as they call it. In other words that determined whether you could read or not. If they couldn't read that, they did not let them vote. But then in later years, I don't know, it might've been in the early 30’s or whatever. They stopped that. That's when that legislative went and they said it was Thad Bryson that stopped the colored people from voting and then there was just a very few. It might've been something kind of secret voting, I don't know what it was and all. I know they'd come up to Grandpa Howell, and Grandma was voting absentee. I don't know that they just went down and voted or it might've been because they were old that they come up to the house and voted them, but I wasn't old enough to vote before they stopped the voting in Bryson City. So, my first vote was in Jackson County. I: Those few blacks who continued to vote, do you know why they were allowed to vote? S: Because they were in the right party I guess. I: What was the right party? S: He was a Democrat. I: Oh, he was a Democrat. S: Grandma was a Republican though. Simpson 13 I: Oh! S: But I don’t know, she probably might've always voted. I don’t know, but anyway I know Granddaddy did because they'd come up to the house. I can remember when I was a child, the Democrats met over Grandma's house then, even though Grandma didn't like it and I think the Republicans, you know your Granddaddy was a Republican. I can remember they'd come to James’ house in the days when Dorothy and Bill was little. See that was kind of, you know, under the cover. I: That was their politicking. S: That was their politicking over there and have all the Republicans over there, they'd throw a big dinner and cook up a bunch of stuff and all that kind of stuff and all. I guess talk to them about, I imagine, now I didn't sit in on their conversation but I guess they talked to them about the candidates and so forth and so on and all. [Tape stops] And Doctor A. M. Bennett was real good, I think about making house calls, you know, whether you had money or whether you didn't. I know some of them would if they had some produce or something that, they would pass it along to them on their bill or something like that. Now, I don’t know what a house call was or anything like that, but I remember now when I was a little child, I had I guess diphtheria, whether it was proven to be diphtheria or not, I don't know. I could remember everytime I'd open my eyes that I could see old Dr. DeHart hitching his horse out in front of the house to the trees. So, now, how he was paid, maybe Granddaddy went and did some work for him or maybe Grandma went and did some work for them. But I don't believe there was too much of a problem of them not coming to see you because they made house calls then, when I was a child. I: Do you remember if your grandmother, being part Blackhawk Indian, used the herbs when members of the family were sick? S: I guess so, because they usually didn’t, I mean Grandma Howell would give us, even bone set tea and all of that stuff and caster oil and Grandaddy was a great Japanese oil said it tasted good to him. Some kind of oil. I don't know if you can even get it now or not and all. And Yaggers liniment to rub you with if you had your aches and pains and so forth and on. I mean a bone ache. I: Right. S: All the old timers I think used a certain amount of herbs in their doctoring and all like that. Give you a little turpentine if you had the stomachache. And we were talking not so long about when they took a drop or two of kerosene oil on sugar if you were hoarse or something like that and later years they say kerosene oil is poison. I: Right. s: Why it didn't kill us. (laughter) I: You don't know. You must've been made of sterner stuff. S: Must've been. Simpson 14 I: Well, do you remember when a hospital was built in Bryson City? S: Back when I was a child Dr. Tidmorris had, you know down there in the area where Mrs. Myers or where that little bank was, there was a little house there that Dr. Tidmorris had something like a little hospital, now how much I don't know. I don't know whether any blacks were ever there or not. Then over where Mrs. Hughes' lives, you know back in your days I guess where Dr. Ward is. His house is on that middle street. I: Right. S: There used to be a big white house there that was a hospital. Evidently Dr. Tidmorris was the leading doctor or the only surgeon and all like that, that he was in charge of that hospital there and I know, I heard as a child. Now, I know they were over there when [Coot] was a baby. I know that 1925 because Beulah Dehart, your cousin Thomas' wife Beulah. You knew Beulah when she come to Bryson City, I guess because she died there. She cooked over there at that hospital and Coot had sore eyes when she was a baby and I know Grandma was afraid to put the drops in her eyes because it was black looking stuff and all, and I can remember Beulah putting that drop saying that's not gonna hurt that baby's eyes. That's what it's for and all. She was cooking at that hospital then. So, Coot was born in '25 so that hospital was there then. I: Now, were Blacks allowed in the hospital then? S: I guess so. I don't remember. I really don't remember anybody having any surgery of the blacks back in them days. Now Aunt Jane Rogers had an operation up in the hospital here in Sylva when I was a little girl but I guess that one was gone then. But I don’t really remember it, some of the blacks might've went for some attention and I remember a guy got shot. He was in the hospital because we had Uncle John to come and sit with him and all. He died but Uncle John went over to the hospital and sat with him. But now as far as any of our blacks in Bryson City having surgery there, I don't remember. You couldn't sit in the waiting room. I: You couldn't sit in the waiting room? S: In the public waiting room where the white people sat. No, we were segregated as far as where we sat in the doctor's office. I: But you could go to the doctor? S: You could go to the doctor but you sat out in the hall. Of course now in Dr. P. R.’s office upstairs there, I don't believe he had anything that was a waiting room except out in the hall. Now, when I went to Dr. Bryson's office it was just mainly, he knew I was coming and just go back into the office part and all of that. So, I guess to a certain extent you had to sit in a different area. Because I know when I went to the hospital in Asheville back in '40, after Morris come out of the service, I guess and all, '45, '46 or '47 or something like that and all. It was just a little scuttle hole place where you sat. You didn't sit in the main waiting room. I guess that didn't come on until segregation was over, integration started. I don't guess. I: Well, when the hospital, that is now standing in Bryson, was built, were blacks allowed to go there? Simpson 15 S: We had one special room that was built especially or was assigned especially to black people. Now if there was ever more than one at one time I don't know what they would've done with them but that’s where they stayed back there in that one room. Marshall’s daddy was in there, Aunt Jean was in there, Ada Coleman, when she had surgery down there, she was in there. Now, those three I know. Flora Jackson, I guess died in there. Your Granddaddy Julus died in there. That one room. It was just the one room. I: Do you remember if the patients were treated any differently? S: I imagine their doctors saw that they did have whatever attention they needed and all like that. Now I do know that we were allowed to go in. I don't know whether there's any restricted areas or not to go in there or not and all and they could sit with their loved ones if they wanted. I: So, the family? S: The family could sit with them and all that and I've seen quite a few maybe in one room. I: Well, when children were born did the mother have a midwife or a doctor? S: Well, some had doctors and some had midwives. Aunt Morgan Coleman, your great- great- grandmother, she was a midwife. Your aunt Jane Rogers, she called herself a midwife. Now whether any of them was licensed, don’t ask me. I don't guess they had to be. But they were. Some had midwives and some had doctors and all. I never heard Grandma Howell say anything about her children, whether she had any doctors with any other of them at all, or she just had midwives. I don’t know. I: Do you remember attending a wake when you were younger? S: Oh yes, at homes. They kept their loved ones at home. They were dressed. Your grandmother, Stacy's mother, and Grandma Howell was two of the main ones that would go into the home, and see the women took care of the women, bathe them and dress them and lay them out on cooling boards. They weren't put in caskets, they called them cooling boards. They were planks set up on maybe a chair, a straight chair. No, maybe these horse things, you know. I: Saw horses? S: Something like that and all. Those, you know, to brace the plank. They were laid on planks. Now they probably had something under them and all like that and sheets over them until they were ready to be put in the casket. They called it cooling boards. See, there was no undertaker or anything in my days. I can remember when Aunt [Alice], Elmer's, their mother died when I was about six years old or seven. I was real little. Francis was in Philadelphia and they had somebody to come out from Waynesville cause I heard Uncle Landon tell that because he assisted the undertaker. Come out from Waynesville and embalmed her because they had to keep her until Francis could get home. But most all of them back when I was a child was not embalmed. We didn't even have a funeral. Well, I guess there might've been a funeral, I don't know but the whites did. Nothing like that with the blacks. No, they didn’t have. The people in town sold caskets, Bill Elmore, I don't know whether Callens or whoever. I guess your grandma could tell you. Grandma Stacy could tell you that but Bill Elmore was the first one that I can just really remember. Simpson 16 I: Do you remember when blacks were permitted to use the funeral home? When they were first permitted? S: When they were first permitted? I guess now, I tell you what, they didn’t stay in the funeral home. They'd take them and prepare the bodies and all that and everything, but they brought them home. I believe Lillian Hill’s little Sarah was the first black that stayed in a funeral home, Bill Moody's funeral home in Bryson City. I thought she was the first one to stay there because all the others after he come back and brought you home, when you were prepared they brought you home. I: During that time were there many cars? S: Oh, back when I was a child, there wasn't. Of course, down the years you know people got a few cars along and all that. I: OK. If you couldn’t use the funeral home, how was the body transported from the house to the cemetery? S: In the wagon! I: Oh, in the wagon. (chuckle) S: In the wagon, and then later in trucks, I guess. Let me tell you this, Ralph Kathy, Mrs. Kathy's son, died about the time Coot was born and that was the first black that rode the Billy Elmore had an old white hearse. I: So, the hearse was white back then? S: The old ones he had. Anyway they picked him up on 19 that night. I: What do you mean 19? S: The train. I: The train? S: He died in Baltimore. They brought him back to Bryson City. Bill Elmore picked up his body and brought it to Mrs. Kathy. I: Now, what was his name again, the first person? S: Ralph Kathy was the first person that I ever saw riding an ambulance, hearse or whatever they call it. I: The hearse. S: That was 1925. I: 1925? Simpson 17 S: Yeah, that was the first black that ever rode in the ambulance. I: What was the tradition of the wake? S: Well, people sat up and sung and prayed. [tape pause] I: How were weddings celebrated? S: After they got married, they'd gone to the justice of peace or wherever they married at, and when the word got out that they were married and all then we'd go get the bride and you know and take her off and ride her around in a wheelbarrow or something like that. (laughter) We didn't do anything drastic, but it was a lot of fun. I: Where would you take her? S: In Bryson City we rode them up and down the road. I: Erving's house. S: His wife Mammie. When he and Mammie got married. We rode her up and down the road in a wheelbarrow. I: Now what happened to the men? S: The men had the husband so, I don't know what they did with him or where they took him off. We just separated them. The women took the wife and the men took the husband. I: Well, how long did you keep them apart? S: Oh, just an hour or two or something like that. Just, you know, maybe until bedtime, you know, part of the night or whatever and all like that. Just having fun with them. That's what we call serenading in my days and all. And then we did [Ann] and [Slim] the same way, those are the two that I helped, those were the only two that I helped serenade. I: Well, after they got back together what would you do? S: Have a little party and serve them something to drink, soft drinks and maybe cookies or some little refreshments that would be prepared to serve them after they were serenaded. I: Other than the wedding celebration what did you do for fun? S: Well, most of the older ones would gather to different homes and they’d have the square dances and then they'd have their ball games because they always had a ball field and a ball team around Bryson City and all. I: They had a black ball team? Simpson 18 S: You know, just the community ball team and all that, they played baseball not the other ball. They played baseball and of course we as children at school, we had our own little ball team, mixed girls and boys and all like that. And we’d play games at school, you know, whatever the games of that custom of that day, I don’t remember all of them, ring around the roses and all that and everything. We'd play hopscotch. We'd shoot and play jack stones and things like that and all. We always had it on Sunday evening. We'd still go up to our school on the hill because Brysons always let the boys have a baseball diamond and we always had a play field out there. In the up land. I: So, you’re speaking of Thad Brysons? S: Yeah, the old man, Thad 's daddy. He always let the children have a playground. Up there even after he was gone, I think Thad and them had a ball field up there and all but ours was just mostly our play field at school. We went out there and played ball and all like that. See, Grandpa Howell had quit farming the up land and I guess during the time when I was a kid up there in the school, there was nobody farming. And if there were, he let them leave that part so that we could play out there and all, because the school ground, we didn't have no, we were right in the road and the back wasn't no good place to play and all our school up there on the hill and all. So, our playground was out there in that up land. I: Well, how did you celebrate the Fourth of July? S: Well, I guess with balloons and so forth, just our usual activities and some of the older ones after it had gotten warm and take us up to what we called our swimming hole up there at the Deep Creek trestle down through there and all where the river and the creek came together and all. The older men, like Neil Jackson, and of course, my uncle Thad and all them. They were real good about playing with us youngsters. Our Sunday school teacher would take us for walks. We’d walk maybe up to Governors Island and walk down going down toward Andrews, down the railroad track that way, the coal shoot as they called it down there. See, you don't have coal shoots now, I guess the coal sheet in your days. I: What’s that? S: That’s where they dumped coal from those little cars into the train coal car because they wasn't run by these diesel engines like they have now a days and all. They run by coal and steam or whatever and all and Aunt [Eta] would walk us down to the coal shoot. Back before the Y was built, I don’t think I ever saw a train turn on the Y. That was down in the Bryson Bottom. But they had what they called the turn around table. It was down there around the Bear spring. Do you know where the Bear spring is in Bryson City? I: No, I’m not sure. S: it’s going down the railroad. You go down by the old knitting mill building down through there an all before you start up that hill to Eddie Grants and them and the coffee house up the hill. There’s a spring down there on that left side down there and that’s the Bear spring. We’d get to walk to the Bear Spring it was tall and all. Well, the turn around table was somewhere down in there where the trains turned around now. I can’t tell you how that come around and you know headed back the way it was suppose to go but in my days later on they built what they call the Y. Where the train would back in and the engine and way it’d come out and all back like that. Now Marcy can tell you maybe how it turned Simpson 19 around in both places. I can’t. How did they use that turn around table in the Y to turn those trains? Did you ever see the turn around table in Bryon City? Morris Simpson: You go in forward and they throw the switch and they back up and then they come out. S: Well how did they do the Y? MS: That’s the Y. S: Oh, you never did see that turn around table. MS: Turn table, yeah, they’d run the train up on it and turn it around, trun table. turned it around back to the east and put the track even and they’d go right. S: I didn’t know how it did it but they called it the turn around table when I was a kid. I: Do you remember your first train ride? S: Oh, yeah. I rode the train back as far as I can remember. I: How far did the train go? S: From Asheville to Murphy. This breaks through here. I: Through the Murphy line? S: We had four passenger trains a d ay. We had a train come down at dinner time. They called it 17. We had a train that come from Asheville going to Murphy at night, 19. We had a train, the one that come down from Murphy at night and then it go back up as 20 in the morning. It come through Bryson City on into Asheville. Then we had what they called 18 that come through Bryson City about 2:00 or 2:30 heading to Asheville. We had four trains a day, two from Asheville and two to Asheville. We could go to Asheville on the 20 in the morning and spend the day and come back that night. There were times that we'd have excursions that you could go and come back for a dollar. I: And you'd go to Asheville? S: And spend the day. I: What would you do in Asheville? S: Well, most of the time we’d go up town shopping or whatever we could do that and all. See they had street cars in Asheville in them days too and all. The people that knew their way around now, I didn’t know my way around back in them days. But, I'd be with somebody who did know their way around that could take me places up town and all like that until I learned my way around and all. We could go spend the day. We could go to Waynesville, Canton, or anywhere and spend the day and go on the morning train, come back at night and all. Simpson 20 I: By that time were the families becoming separated by the children moving, for example to Asheville, to Waynesville and not in this close-knit community? S: Well, by the time the train was completely cut off I think most of our people had moved. You know, say for instance when World War II started and work opened up, say for instance, practically everybody in Sylva went to Detroit and different places like that to work because of the better jobs, of course. I: Did most of the families live in little sections together? S: Yeah! Now, you take for instance like the Dehart's over there, where your mamma and them live. I: Right. S: And then Aunt Maggie and Uncle Abe Williams and them where they lived as you start up Black Hill and all. And then I: So, would you say that the families tended to live in groups, in little areas? S: Little different areas and all like that, but of course we were always in walking distance. I: Of each other? S: Of each other. I: You said the Fourth of July and walking down to the train, Asheville excursions, ball games. Do you remember any other times that the black community got together? S: Always when somebody died. I: Al ways when somebody has died? S: Oh yeah! Everybody went to funerals in my days and all and everybody went to church in my day! Everybody. I: Was the church a central part of your lives? S: Yes, the church was always the gathering. Even back when I was a child, our entertainment, our school programs and everything was held at the church because we didn't have lights in our school house. Now there was lights in the church even back when I was a little girl. But we didn't have lights in our schoolhouse. We never used our school at night or anything. They might've put lights in it now. I guess they did and all but I can't remember us having any electric lights in our schoolhouse, maybe later years or something like that. But the church was the central place and all. They even had entertainments, Saturday night entertainments. I: At church? What kind of entertainment? S: Oh, like selling their ice cream and hot dogs and cake walks and chicken and whatever they had to sell. Now, Grandma Howell and them Miss Ida never missed out on them. See, that was their way of Simpson 21 raising money and they weren't like today. People didn't have all that money to give. There was always road workers and things like that. They'd bring people in around Bryson City. Say for instance, down where the Parris’ live you know, down in that area and all. When they were building that highway through there, see that was road workers' camps down in there and all and they'd have entertainments on Saturday nights you see, and raise their money. I: With the church? S: To support the church and things like that for different causes of the church, they supported, through their entertainments and all. See, because sometimes the collection might not have been quite what... I'll say anything, any project that they wanted to do like buy something. Now they bought an organ in Bryson City when I was real little at that church. I guess their money was raised that way and all like that. They'd make them churns of ice cream and sell ice cream and sale chicken, I guess make it into sandwiches or whatever and all like that. I: Do you remember fish fries? S: Well, now they didn't have too many fish fries because see we didn’t have no fresh fish. There wasn't no markets around there but we had them in our days though up at the school house. We have you know fish fries and sell fish and everything else up to the school house, the new school house and all. I: The church was a central part of your lives for entertainment as well as for religious services. What other holiday do you remember that was really special? S: Christmas! I: Christmas. S: Christmas. That big, tall Uncle Abe Williams was our Sunday school superintendent and he 'd have that big, tall, pine tree without light one on it because I guess there wasn't no light in the church then. We didn't know what Christmas tree lights were. He'd have our little bag, brown bag, with our little apple because see oranges weren't as common when I was a kid until after the A&P and the other stores got to bringing them in and all. He'd have our apple and our stick candy and our nuts and all in that little bag. He'd have them tied on to that Christmas tree now. He didn't have them sit down on the bench and hand them out to you and all. He had everything and his little bags tied on that Christmas tree. I: Were there other decorations on the tree? S: I don't remember anything. There might've been some red crepe paper on it or something like that but not nothing like we see now a days and all that I saw later on. You know, not when I was a child. I: Now, did all black families have a Christmas tree in the home? S: I don't believe any of them in my days ever had one in the home. I know we didn't start fixing them at home in Bryson city I believe until Coot was a little girl. Because that's why I tell Terry I can’t decorate a Christmas tree. I said because when Coot fixed one for because she's about as old over as I was over her. She'd fixed the Christmas tree and we’d try to have one at home and she'd fix it when she was a little girl Simpson 22 or something like that. I remember buying lights for her and all like that when she - because we had lights then and all. She'd fix her own little tree. I: Well, if the church gave you your bag of candy and fruit, what did you get at home for Christmas? S: Well, Santa Claus stopped coming to see me when I was real little. [laugh] My house couldn't afford big Christmases. I’d have a little doll, maybe. Maybe a little animal of some kind. I remember I had a cat that, well, it was more like paste board and all, but I just adored it. I remember Eunice had a monkey on a string. We had shoe boxes. In that shoe box there might be an orange in it and some candy and maybe an apple and maybe one toy. You didn't get no variety of toys, maybe one toy. But you were just as happy over that one as you would be over a dozen now and all that. It was a happy occasion. I say my childhood was happy. I didn't have nothing, but I was a happy child. I: Right. Since the family members have started to scatter in order to find work, was there a particular time during the year when they would all come together? S: Come home for the association, the fourth Sunday in August. They would come home. Most of them that were able to. I: Now was this the Baptist? S: Yes, they planned their vacation. Our Baptist Association, they would plan to come home for the association. I: Was this just a one day affair? s: No, it started on a Thursday back when I was a kid, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday, all day four days. I: There would be regular sermons? S: Regular sermons. They'd have sermons and of course whatever business they had to tend to and all and different organizations, representing them and all that and everything. They would all meet together, the men and the women and all and they’d just have a singing, praying and preaching and shouting good time. The churches was always full, the associations was something that was just looked forward to. I can remember Grandma Howell, in fact Miss Birdie told me there was about 35 people stayed in Grandma and Grandpa’s house and all like that. They down on the pallets. I: I was gonna say, how did they sleep. S: On the pallets on the floor. Now, Birdie told me that now. I can’t remember because their daddy was the preacher. He'd come to Bryson City, bring her and Mable with him, she said. They’d stay at Grandma Howell's and them. She said she knew of times there’d be 35 people there and all. See, everybody looked forward to having beans and corn. Birdie told me that Grandma and Grandpa would kill a beef. I don't remember them serving beef stew but anyway she said they killed a beef. Well, see all the eating was done at the church except the ones that are in the home there with you and all like that. But everybody carried out loads of food to the church. They’d spread it, what we call it dinner on the ground. Simpson 23 I: Right. S: Cause see they didn't have the kitchens and dining rooms and all like that at the church and everything. They'd have dinner spread on the ground or maybe put some planks on the horses, as I call them and all, the work benches and all like that or maybe take the benches out of the church and put planks on them and all. People would eat, and you know and all like that. A good time, it really was. I went to some of them myself. I: It seems like you had quite a bit of fun. Now, what did you do to earn a living? s: Well, I started real early in life. My first little job was going out to Black’s and helping Lilly. When I was nine years old, I'd go in the summer time when they had company and help wash the lunch dishes, I'd go at lunch time. Then I 'd go back at night and help wash the supper dishes, it was called then and all. I: Now, when you say the Black’s, he was the president of the bank? S: Yeah. Lily worked for him. Of course their children were all at home then and they would bring company home from college in the summer time and all. That would be extra help. They'd need somebody extra. I would go out and help with the dishes and the little chores that I could do around and all like that. Then that was when I was real small. I said I was nine years old when I started going out there and I helped them when Ellen got married, their daughter Ellen. Had a big home wedding. There was a lot of work for us to do. I got to go maybe all day for some of the days. I think I must've been eleven or twelve years old or something when she got married. Then I babysit for the Halls. Thelma Hall. You know Jackie and them and all. You know, Jackie died not too long ago. Jackie Sherrill, she was. Mrs. Hall lives down at the Calhoun House now. They lived on that middle street down through there. Her husband was a lawyer. She had Betty and Jackie and I would babysit for them when I was a little girl and all like that. Then later on I got little jobs of my own. Maybe making $2.50 or $3. 50, three dollars a week or something like that and all. Then on private home or tourist court and all and working in the restaurants and things like that and all. Then until I come to Enloes in ‘48. Then after I come to Enloes in ‘48, Mr. Enloe died in ‘60 and then we went to Western Carolina University where I served as housekeeper until I retired in ‘81. I: Now, what did you do at the Enloes? You stayed with them approximately twelve years. Now, what did you do? s: General house work, cooked and everything. I: You went daily? S: Oh, yeah. Lived on the place, we did down there. That's when we lived in Dillsboro. I: Oh, in Dillsboro? S: In Dillsboro, we lived on the place down there. Morris was the chauffeur, butler, as Mr. Enloe said, yard man or whatever and all like that. But I was the housekeeper, maid or whatever, general house work, let's put it that way. Simpson 24 I: Was your house a part of their house or separate building? S: It was a separate building, entirely separate. We lived up there in a six-room house. I: Was this seven days a week? S: Oh, yeah. I: Did you have time off? S: Seven days a week, we were off on Tuesday evening and of course we were off on Sunday evening. Then they went to Florida in the month of February, we were off the whole month of February and then anytime that they were gone, we of course could be off and all like that. But we lived there because that was our house up there and wherever we went we’d come home at night time, you know, unless we stay in Bryson City sometimes and all. I: Now, did you become a part of that family? s: Oh, yeah, still am. That family treat us just like we're one of them to a certain extent. Not as much segregation now as there probably was then. Now I didn’t sit at the table and eat with them. When I was working for them, me and Morris would eat in the kitchen, of course, after we'd already served them. I never stayed down there at night, but of course Morris had to stay when Mr. Enloe was sick and all like that. I: So, when did your work day begin and end? S: Well, now there were various times. That was just more or less up to me. I'd go down, well Mr. Enloe didn't get up until late in the morning but when Miss Anne was going to work at 8:00 when she worked at the hospital or 9:00 when she worked at the bank. I'd always go down in time to give her breakfast before she went to work and I’d be there in the house in case the telephone rang because he slept late. Mrs. Enloe died shortly after we left, six months after we come up there. She died and all. Of course we all were in, Mr. Enloe’s sister come to live with us and all. We were there with them of course during the day you know. I'd go down as I say still by the time the Ms. Anne went to work so they didn't have to get up and answer the telephone because it wasn't in the bedroom. It was out there in the hall and the breakfast room. Then give them their breakfast and putter around through the house. If I wanted to run to town anytime, I could. It wasn’t hard though, be there and give them their lunch and we'd go over the house then I could go home in the evening and go back at supper time. See, because I could just walk down the hill. Well, now it was up to me, I mean if I got supper earlier enough Miss Anne come home 5:00 or 6:00 or something, they'd eat supper just as soon as I'd give it to them and all like that. Sometimes it was a little later and sometimes they had a lot of company. I'd be a little later or something like that and all. I: Now, would you cook at their house and then go home and cook at your house? S: No, Morris and myself, both ate down there. When Marlin was with us and all, see she'd, I'd take her a plate or she'd come down to the house and eat too. I: That's your daughter? Simpson 25 S: Yes. I: After you left the Enloes... S: We still lived there until we moved up here in ‘80. I: Now, were you renting the home or were they just letting you stay there. Did you have to pay them rent? S: We stayed. We didn't pay no rent. We just stayed there until Miss Anne sold the place down there, but in the meantime see we had already bought up here. Just in case. I: On Hospital Road? S: Yeah, this place became available when they decided to sell it. We bought it I guess in ‘71 but we didn't move up here until about ‘80. We moved up here in March of '80. So, you know the last year, see Sissy and Rudy was living in it when we bought it and all. I: Right. S: Then after they got their trailer and moved out, we let it set empty until about a year before we moved in it. Peggy asked me if she could live in it. We let her live in it. I: So, after the Enloes died? S: We still stayed down there. I: And you went to work? S: At Western Carolina in 1960. I went in July of 1960. Mr. Enloe died in February of 1960. I: Now how long did you stay at Western as a housekeeper? S: Stayed at Western as a housekeeper from ‘60 until ‘81, twenty-one years. I: Twenty-one years? S: Yes. And my vacation and sick time added up to 22, well in other words I worked 21 years I went in July and I retired last of July. I: Now, Mrs. Wilma, is there anything else about your life that you would like to share which I haven't asked you? S: Well, I lost my brother tragically in an automobile accident on May 9, 1937. I: How old was he? Simpson 26 S: He was twenty-four at that time. I: So, his life had just started? S: Just started. He got married in August before he had that fatal wreck in 1937 and was killed instantly. I: This was your only brother? s: My only full brother. We grew up together. My grandparents reared both of us. They had him since he, I was a year and seven months old when they took us and of course, he was close to four years old and all when my grandma had gone to Cincinnati after my parents had split up. That's my daddy's mother, and brought us back to Bryson City. She reared us. We lived with her until his death, which was in 1937 and all. I: That must've been hard for you? S: It certainly was. It was just most tragic for me. It's something I'll always remember. I: Can you remember any other events in your life that stand out? s: My grandmother and granddaddy lost a son. That got drowned in Bryson City down the island which is just below that new bridge in Bryson City, that island down there and all. He was hauling gravel. The water got up while he was there, washed him and his horses, his whole team. I: Oh, my goodness. S: He was washed away. I: Wasn't there another flood in Bryson City? S: Now, that was when just the river really got up. Now, what caused the river to be up, you know, people said a cloud burst or whatever but I know we’d had a lot of rain and all, but anyway I don't know whether that water completely covered that island. It must have because he loaded his wagon and he was washed away along with his horses. His body, he was in the river a week before they found him. They found him way down the road around Fontana when he came to surface. I: Now, that's a long way. S: That was in May and what, I guess when water got warm, the different temperatures of the water. He was found down, way down, around what they call Hazel Creek or Bushnell or something, a good ways from Bryson City. How they found him, they had searched the river for that solid week. I can just remember the whole Western Carolina. People were there because Grandma and Granddaddy were widely known. They were all there searching and searching for him and all and then this boy that was from Andrews was evidently hoboing up in Bryson City. He spied his body floating down the river. Now whether they stopped the train, I can't tell you because they brought him into Bryson City, they said that evening or that night because they brought him home in the night. They must've stopped the train and brought him on the flat car on the train and all like that because when they brought him home, see they'd already dressed him and put him in the box. They buried him the next day, see because he'd been Simpson 27 dead over a week. Grandma Howell said the only way she recognized it as being him was when his color was changed and everything naturally had swollen up. They didn't hide nothing from you back in those days and all. Aunt Vera and him had fought as kids and Aunt Vera bit a nick out of his ear. They brought his clothing home because I remember I was about eight years old then. She buried those clothes out in our swamp out the back of the house. He had a red flannel looking shirt and his overalls and she took them out there and buried them because there was just so much they could take off him, see because some skin came off him when they undressed him. I remember him being home, but I can't remember too much about how he looked. I imagine they put some type of shroud or something on him because they couldn't put no regular clothes on him because he was so swollen and all. Then we buried him that next day. Seem like to me he got drowned on a Wednesday because Grandma Howell was still washing for people because she'd gone to that family home that morning to wash. I remember you know the Mills’ lived out up on the hill were Stella and Harrison lived up where our school was. I know Elvina came and got me. I was a little girl at home and took me out to Aunt Kelly was living out there. That's when they told me what had happened. So, anyway as I said it was a week before they found him and I guess he drowned on Wednesday and probably the next Wednesday they found him. He was buried on Thursday and that's why I talk about how that cemetery has grown. Now Uncle Elledge worked for Ralph Gibson who was the rural mail carrier in Bryson City. That's who he was hauling that gravel for. I can remember down in there where our family is buried. Well, Ralph Gibson drove his T-model Ford right up to Elledge’s grave so that Grandma didn't need to have to get out if she didn't want to. Now, that's how empty that cemetery was in 1923 when he got drowned. See, how it is now. He just drove it in the front through there until I guess they fixed the path probably and all for him to drive in. Now I didn’t see him carry Elledge in. As I said, everything was in a wagon, I guess the wagon had made the road through there before the what you call it. But she could just sit in that car. I could see her sitting there with her little black veil and things on like that. She could look right over the grave where they were burying him. But she got out and stood there at the grave as the rest of us did. I: Were there any other occasions when a lot of people were affected in Bryson City or Sylva? S: I don't really know of any because all the World War I veterans come home safe. It was just in the community just when a member would pass away, not too many tragic deaths. I: Well, do you remember the flood in Bryson City? S: Oh, yeah. In 1941 and all, and of course the houses were just damaged in town. Now, say for instance, Freeman Hotel, you know there where it is and all then the Dehart house and all. They were solid built but they were flooded with water and all that and everything. The buildings were flooded. But nothing washed away. Our bridge I can remember a big piece of concrete that washed up and made a hole on the sidewalk but we crossed it. It was safe. I: There's a new one now. S: That one up in town. Well, that same one. That was the one during the flood before they built this last one and all. I don't know of anything back when I was a girl there was a plane fell and burned up in Cherokee. The pilot and two others from Ferguson Dairy. Mrs. Ferguson's brother. He was one of them. They were white, the pilot and the two. It was the fair, the Indian fair was going on and they were taking rides, you know, how planes come in and ride people around. It crashed and burned up somewhere around the Cherokee area. And of course, and of course there were different car wrecks in the whites, they were killed Kephart, that Mount Kephart was named for and all and George Masa a Jap they were Simpson 28 killed in a car wreck when I was a young teenager. Two or three of them at that time. And then Ledbetter and Austin Schuler and [inaudible] was all killed in a car wreck, the three of them when I was a kid in Bryson City. So there were different times in the white community. I: Well, during the time that there was a flood in Bryson wasn't there also one in Sylva? S: Oh, yeah. That's when I worked with a janitor whose wife was washed away during the flood when it come through Sylva and all. I: So, it came from Bryson City? S: No, it come down. See the river flows down. I: So, it hit Sylva first? S: It hit, evidently in Sylva in the night because they were in the bed and all. But it didn't hit Bryson City. Annie and them had gone to work at 8:00 that morning. They were blocked on the other side of the river because it hadn't, the water hadn't risen up over the bridge. So, it must've been mid-morning by the time it really hit Bryson City. I: Was there any damage due to the flood in Sylva? S: Oh, yeah! I guess so. I imagine so. The river is over yonder, honey. It didn't go through town in Sylva. See, it goes through town in Bryson City. So, that's why these towns ... in Cullowhee, you know Mr. Davis and Mrs. Davis' home was washed away, going over toward where Betty and Clifford live. I: Which Davis is this? S: Robert Davis and Mrs. Davis. Their home was there beside of the river when you turn down like to go to Clifford's. I: Right. S: Their home was washed away. That’s one black home, I know was washed away during that flood. Now, whether there are any other blacks lost their home during the flood, I don't know. Not any of the blacks were really affected in Bryson City simply because we didn't live in the area. I: The downtown area... S: The downtown area where the bridge was and all. As I told you it was backed up to Medows’s store just as you start up Black Hill. That's as far as we could go when Morris come and told me. He walked to town. That's as far as we could get to what we call Medows's store. That store there, that last store there before you go up Black Hill and turn around to you all’s house. Now the water was out to there. I: My goodness! What was your reaction to the Civil Rights Movement and Dr. Martin Luther King? S: Oh, I gloried in his spunk! Absolutely because he got things done! We could go anywhere and eat, anywhere and sleep! Me and Morris, on our way up to Michigan, stopped at a Holiday Inn whenever we Simpson 29 wanted to, walk in them places and eat wherever we want to, when we used to couldn't hardly use a restroom! We used to have to drive up to the filling station and ask. Morris would ask could we use the restroom. If they'd say yes, we'd say "fill it up." If they didn't we didn't stop there [laugh]. Now, we go into anywhere and eat and sleep if we want to. Certainly, I admire him for that. I: Well, do you think that as a result of the Civil Rights Movement, the relationships have changed? S: Yes, I think it has gotten better because they don't always know what the black man is gonna do. They treat us nice. I: Well, thank you so much Mrs. Simpson.
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Oral Histories of Western North Carolina

These interviews document the communities and culture of Western North Carolina. Topics include the building of the Fontana Dam, the history of WCU, stories from local veterans, integration of the...

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