Phillip Smith, a student at Western Carolina College in the 1950s, discusses playing basketball and baseball under Jim Gudger, being nicknamed ‘Chief’ by his teammates because he was Cherokee, and race relations at the time.

• Creator
  • Smith, Phillip
• Contributor
  • Carroll, Tonya
• Format
  • Transcripts
  • Interviews
• Type
  • Text
• Date
  • Date interview: 2009-10-03
  • Date: 1950s;
  • Date digitized: 2014-12-04
• Extent
  • Duration: 13 pages
• Subject - Topic
  • Autobiography
  • Baseball players
  • Basketball players
  • College athletes
  • Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians
  • Smith, Phillip -- Interviews
  • Southern States -- Race relations -- History -- 20th century
  • Western Carolina College -- Students
  • Western Carolina University
• Location
  • Jackson County (N.C.)
• Source institution
  • Western Carolina University
• Source Collection
  • WCU Oral History Collection - HIST 474/574
• Identifier
  • HL_HIST474_Carroll_Smith_2009-10-03_transcript
• Repository
  • Western Carolina University Hunter Library

Transcription Phillip Smith Interview TC = Tonya Carroll PS = Phillip Smith * Indicates a clarification not on recording TC: Today is Saturday October 3, 2009. My name is Tonya Carroll and I'm here in Cherokee, North Carolina to interview Phillip Smith about basketball and baseball at Western Carolina College. Ok. Here we go. I have to ask you (pause) are you aware that this conversation is being taped? PS: Yes. TC: Are you ok with this interview being used for academic and historic purposes? PS: Yes. TC: Ok. What years did you attend Western Carolina College? PS: 53 through 57. (*1953 -1957) TC: Ok. Why did you choose to attend Western Carolina College? PS: Honestly, uh, at that point in time I had no intention of going on to college. And all of a sudden I got this letter that said I had been accepted. (laughs) I didn't remember even sendin' a application. But, when that happened I had to really start thinking about it. So consequently, since I didn't have any plans on goin' on to school I didn't know of any other college, anywhere, and it was close to home. So that's basically the reason (pause) be close to home. TC: What did you major in at Western Carolina College? PS: Urn ... Physical Education. TC: What years and sports did you play at the college? PS: 53 through 57. Well no, no, no, no. Probly 56, probly cause my GI Bill ran out. And so the last year I had to take a job in order to finish up. And I'd gone that far and I wuttin' about to (laughs) drop out. And so (pause) it's sorta ironic. I had played softball with a team in Waynesville or Hazelwood, Dayton Rubber Company at that time, where the new Walmart is. So I went to see if I could get them to give me a temporary job, a part-time job. And they didn't have any openings at that time and some how or another the owner, his name was Freedlander, heard about it and he contacted me and he invented a job for me. He gave me a private guard at his home, two nights a week. The only rule I had was I was not to go to sleep. He was deathly afraid of fire, and so I was to guard his house to keep it from burnin' down you know. And so, I worked Sunday night and Monday night and I was doin' my practice teaching so I would go to bed Saturday night and I wouldn't get to go to bed again until Tuesday (laughs) or sleep. And so it was uh, it was hard. But if you see something that you really want, you'll do it. Whatever it is. TC: And what did you say his name was? 1 PS: Freedlander. A.L. Freedlander. I never did know his first name though. But he was sort of a multi-millionaire. Urn, he was sort of the inventor of the V belt that you see under the hoods of most cars. Evidently his invention I guess, or that's what they told me. TC: So you played basketball and baseball for Western Carolina College. PS: Mm-hmm. TC: What positions did you play? PS: I was a pitcher in baseball and a forward in basketball. TC: Do you remember the number on your jersey? PS: Do what? TC: The number on your jersey? JS:Ten. TC: For both? PS: Ten. I don't remember my baseball number. TC: Ok. PS: If you'll dig deep enough you'll find some pictures TC:Ok. PS: and cause I 'member when I was in school up there they had a bulletin board out in the front in the gym they had all the ball players and their pictures. TC: So were you recruited to play? PS: Recruited? No. I was a walk on. TC: For both sports? PS: Yeah. TC: So you didn't consider going to any other colleges? PS: No. I really didn't even know where any other colleges were, you know. Back then, what was the closest? There was a junior college in Asheville, what was the name of it? I can't remember the name of it. That was the only higher education school that there was in this area at that time. Now 'bout every town you go to now has got a either a college or a junior college or a what's this place where your mama works? TC: A community college? PS: Yeah a community college. There wuttin' any of those around either. 2 TC: So who were your coaches? PS: Uh same guy coached both sports. Jim Gudger. TC: Can you tell me a little about him and your experiences? PS: (laughs) He was something else. Urn (pause) they called him Big Bear. Because he was a big man. And he didn't really have to really jump on you, he could just look at you, and you knew I better change my ways. (laughs) Oh he was sornethin' else though. TC: What about your teammates? Were you close to them or do you remember any of their names? PS: Urn, eh, just a few of 'ern. 'ere was a coupla Kuykendall guys from Waynesville or Hazelwood over in that part of the country and a kid named Bobby Dallan? he played shortstop for us. And these Kuykendall were, can't remember what Bobby was, catcher I believe, and uh, his brother, uh, his nickname was Krute, Krute Kuykendall he was a big left hander. And the reason you remember these kinda people is they do something that makes you remember them, you know. Uh, other than just playing you know, cause, urn, tell you a funny story of how I remember, Krute was, we was playin' somebody, I forget now who it was, and they was an urnp that made a call, coach didn't like it and here he come. And he had a half a bag of Beechnut Chewing tobacco in his mouth he could chew half a pack of Beechnut in one chew. And when he got in that urnps face and he spit tobacco juice in his face (laughs) I mean he wuttin' meaning to spit on him it was just corning out you know? And while all that was goin' on the other team, our opponent started giving some raspberry out of their dugout. And all of a sudden Krute turned around and took that baseball and he threw that baseball, it rnusta been goin' a hundred miles an hour if he hit somebody in that dugout he'da killed 'ern. And the ball bounced straight back to him. And the urnp never did see it. (laughs) He was standing there like nuthin' had happened, you know. But he threw a baseball in that dugout I mean he cut down on it. But that was Gudger, an urnp or a referee would hate to see him cornin'. Cause he could get your attention. That's another thing that sorta wears off on ya. Urn, so when I started coaching uh, I coached like he coached. And uh, I think that's sorta part of your core cause you don't know any other way of doing it other than what you know what he was doing, you had to learn it or you couldn't play. It was something else. (*Krute was a pitcher) TC: So which one was your favorite to play, basketball or baseball? PS: Hrnrnrnrn ... I'd say basketball. Because it's sort of an indoor sport. Baseball has a tendency 'specially in Western North Carolina you started the season while there's still snow on the ground. (laughs) And you get up 'ere and start hitting the baseball with a wooden bat, I don't think, you still can't use aluminum bats in college, I don't think you can. It's been a long time since I've watched college baseball. I think they still use wooden bats but you hit that baseball and it sends splinters up and down your spine. It hurts. TC: Did you have a nickname? PS: Chief. TC: How did you get it? 3 PS: (laughs) I'm Indian. TC: Did you like it when people called you Chief? PS: Hmm, yeah. Uh, because to me it (pause) and a few times I had to straighten people out. They, when they referred to me as Chief, I wasn't the Chief. We had a Chief, but it wuttin' me, that was just a nickname for me. And so I had to straighten several people out on that score. They thought I was royalty you know, I was the Chief. (pause) But that's just the way it goes. TC: While you were playing these sports did you win any awards or championships? PS: Hmm, no. Back in those days playing college sports there really wuttin' that much emphasis on the tournament and things like that, if you got in a tournament you know you went and played it and that's 'bout the size of it. Urn, what a lot of people don't understand, is especially in college 'specially no bigger than Western was at that time urn, cause at that time Reid Gym was the only building that wuttin' tied into the University or the college proper. Where the Hunter Library is you come just past the entrance to Hunter Library, you tum an' go up the hill uh, that's where most of your dorms were well, not most of 'em all of 'em were up there. Urn, and my freshman year Reynolds was a brand new dorm. But they only had one other men's dorm. And they only had one ladies' dorm. Think the name of it was Moore, i'm not sure. And all the administration buildings was up there, everything was up on the hill there. And, but now you go up there and it's spread out all over the country. It's probly ten times bigger than it was when I went to school up 'ere. As a matter of fact, it hasn't been a University that long. It wasn't a University when I was up there, it was I think when I first started it was Western Carolina Teacher's College. Their main thing was teaching. TC: So why did you decide that you wanted to play sports while you were in college? PS: Uh, it's hard to say, frankly if you're not on scholarship because it does, it takes a lot away from your scholastic work. Because you go on a ball trip like North East Carolina urn, you'd be gone 3 or 4 days and when you came back you had to go back to those instructors and they'd give you the make up work that you'd missed and (laughs) it's hard for an athlete to be that strong in academics. You could ask me what had happened on a road trip I could tell you everything that happened, as far as missing that stuff in the classroom it's hard to make it up. And then there'd be those days that you'd run into, I probly shouldn't say this, but there's a lot of instructors despised sports people because that make them extra work. Because they have to give us the make up work and do the things, make sure we don't miss out on anything. But that's (pause) just how it is. You can't have it both ways, and another thing too we didn't go to the airport get on a plane and fly anywhere. We never flew anywhere. We didn't even have a bus. I think one of the reasons they kept me on the team is I had a car. (laughs) And so uh, we had the coaches car and my car and there was one other person had a car who was 'at? I can't remember the other guy that had a car. We'd travel in three cars and you packed in there like sardines (pause) but it's an experience and I did that for three years and you look at my academic record and you can see where I spent most of my time. TC: So for basketball and baseball you not only were on the team but you had to drive the team? PS:(laughs) That's about the size of it. (pause) But somebody had to do it. I don't know what they woulda done if they didn't have ball players that had cars. 4 TC: So it was pretty rare to have a car? PS: Yeah. TC: So can you tell more about traveling to the away games, like the places you went, the best teams that you played against? PS. Urn right off hand I'd say probably Appalachian was our number one foe I guess. We wanted to beat them more than we wanted to beat anybody. Then the next in line would probly be Lenoir-Rhyne because they thought they was better than everybody else. Same way with East Carolina. East Carolina fought and fought and fought tryin' to get out of the conference we was in, they thought they was too good for us. (laughs) They didn't wannabe in there. I even forget the name of the conference we was in. After all, I hadn't though about this in forty years I guess. TC: So what would happen? Were there fans? Would they be mean and how were their reactions? PS: There was a fight or two (pause) or three. (laughs) TC: Between the fans? PS: Oh yeah up in the stands. TC: What would they do when a fight would break out? PS: Well, they had police there. They'd get 'em straightened out. TC: Did your team have any pre-game rituals that they would do? Or after the game was there something you always did together? PS: Uh, there was always a pre-game meal. Uh, and it was a, just certain things that you could eat to where it wouldn't, the food wouldn't bother you when you started playing. And I think that's one of the reasons I dislike tea. Coach Gudger he loved tea. Everywhere we went we had tea for the pre-game meal. I couldn't stand it, but I had to drink it cause there wuttin' anything else to drink. TC: So all you did was drink tea before the game? PS: No, you'd have a meal. Uh, Iotta times it'd be roast beef, somethin' that you could digest in a hurry. You know like you'd probly eat say as early as five o'clock then your varsity'd probly play 'bout eight so you got three hours for your food to digest. And after the game you had a real meal, steak and that kinda stuff. TC: Who would fix the meals? PS: Uh, the uh, people that ran the uh cafeteria. TC: Even at the away games? PS: Well uh, well, it would be their responsibility to do that. 5 TC: And this was for both the sports? PS: Uh-huh. Well, no not in baseball, not in baseball. Cause most of your baseball games were played in the day. Cause they wuttin' I can't remember any place where we played that had lighted fields. So you had to play in the day, while it was daylight. There wuttin' any, we never did play a night game. TC: So all you did was have the meal before the game and after the game? PS: Umhmm. ' TC; Did the coach ever, you know, have a speech for you? PS: Oh yeah. He get you riled up. TC: Do you remember some of the things he'd tell you? PS: Not really. Urn ... just if you've ever heard a pep talk you know uh he'd tell you why they want to beat us and why we have to beat them and you know urn over and over and over it's 'bout the same story all the time that was more or less the important thing, how it would affect your school urn if you lost or how it was gonna affect your school if you won, you know. TC: Was there any music you would listen to to get you pumped up? PS: Urn ... uh, I keep thinking (pause) there's a song that's good warm up music for basketball, Sweet Georgia Brown, they'd play that while we was warming up. And didn't have anything like that in baseball. TC: So were you a starter on the team? PS: Ev'ry now an' then. It's just dependin' on who we playin' and uh what their strengths are and what yours are. And who is available on your team for that particular game you know. You try to match your players up with the opposing team uh hopefully you're not wrong and uh, you say ok Chief you're gonna be guarding this guy and this is what he likes to do and they expec' you to stop him. (laughs) And uh you know if you did then ev'rybody patted you on the back and if you didn't you heard about that too. TC: So what were the best skills you would bring to your team? PS: Uh, well thing 'bout it when you playin' college ball urn, it's different uh, because when you're in the lower ranks of sports uh, just your experience will get you by, you know because you don't run into All-Americans, you know. I'll never forget the first time uh we played, in those early days, in the early to mid-fifties all of your industrial plants uh sponsored teams. Uh, like Enka uh they had a powerful team. And what they did was they would give these All­Americans out of college a job or a position and so that's how they'd end up with a good team. Because when they were out recruiting workers they were looking for athletes too. TC: So you played these teams, these industrial teams? PS: We played against some of 'em yeah, and I'll never forget the first time we played Enka and they had this monster, that's the biggest man I've ever seen in my life. He was over seven feet 6 tall, I'd never seen a man seven feet tall before. And we he turned to make a move on you, here I was 'bout a hundred and sixty pounds soakin' wet and a brick in each pocket and I was expected to stop him. He just moved me out of the way like I wuttin' even there. (laughs) He wuttin' a great ball player but the heck of it was back, then the lane was only six feet wide where you couldn't stand in there over so many seconds. Well if you take a guy 'at's seven feet tall he can step across that line he can straddle six feet wide he don't have to stand in it he can straddle it. And when he'd get up and around that rim the ball didn't have any place to go but down through the hole cause he had hands on both sides of it you know (laughs) the ball couldn't go any place else it had to go (laughs) he wouldn't let it go any place else. TC: So what are your best memories of playing sports in college? PS: That's one of 'em (*the story in the previous answer) Uh, it's uh, well the things about it is you sorta have a, it's sorta like an honor society you know if you're a ball player everybody knows you, because you're out there in front of them every night you know out there in your little skivvy shirt and skivvy drawers and they watch you and they learn you know what your name is and so you're a big man on campus. And you know if you've never done something like that you don't know how it feels urn, when everybody knows you, you know and they don't have anything bad to say about you it's always somethin' good, and so that's some of my best memories, the camaraderie of being an athlete. It's hard to explain because you know it's a, that's just the way it is, you're popular. TC: What about some of the worst moments? PS: (laughs) Hmm, (pause) some of the worst moments is when like time run out a you took the last shot and you miss it and you get beat by one point. That stays with you for a while. Or you're defending a person, the score is tied and the guy gets off a fifty-foot jump shot, the buzzer goes off and the ball goes in the hole, and you lose by two. They's nothing you can do it's just like somebody hits you in the head with an ax hammer or something because you know you don't get another chance, you don't get another chance it's over and there's nothing you can do about it. That's hard to accept. It's tough when it happens to you. Coachin's the same way I coached for seventeen years after I got out of college and uh, you win some that you shouldn't and you'lllose some that you shouldn't urn, that's just the way the ball bounces (laughs). TC: To your knowledge were there any other people from Cherokee that played a sport before you at Western? PS: No. I don't (pause) think there was one, I don't ever remember hearing about it if they did. I don't think they did. TC: Did you ever think about maybe you were the first Cherokee person to play for Western? PS: Hmm, not really. Urn, because the subject never did come up for whatever reason I don't know. I don't recall ever being asked that question. Even back during the time 'at I was playing. TC: Urn, did anybody from Cherokee ever come watch you play? PS: Uh, yeah they was several people uh, that was, they were sports enthusiasts, it's hard to be a sports enthusiast in Cherokee back in those days because Cherokee was just a wide spot in the 7 road uh, what a lot of people don't understand, you know this new bridge they're building in Cherokee? (*Downtown Cherokee at the intersection of US 441 and Hwy 19) That's the third bridge that's been in that same location. The first one was down a little bit below the old one that's there now, a little bit below there. The only, from the end of that bridge to that first curve out there, right there where that uh, just like a little shopping mall in there uh, they got sub sandwich place in there, that's as far as Cherokee was that was it and they was plenty of vacant spots between that. A that time there was one, two, three there was five stores on the right hand side coming from the bridge, there was I think there was only four on the left hand side. And there was plenty of room between 'em. The post office was down there it was 'bout as big as my shop. (* he is referring to his shed at his house, we were sitting in front of it) And so Cherokee it was just like anything it'd be like Western urn, Western, nobody had ever heard of Western, just a lil' old place, where's Cullowhee, North Carolina? Nobody ever heard of that. TC: Do you know any people from Cherokee that played sports after you at Western? PS: There was a boy from Robbinsville, not Robbinsville, Snowbird that they signed to play football up 'ere but I don't know that he ever played. I can't remember he didn't play while I was there 'at's for sure. And he, I think he works at the hospital. What's his name? I can't remember his name but he was from Snowbird. And Western signed him but I don't think he ever played. TC: Did any of your players that you coached after you left Western did any of them play? PS: For Western? TC: Umhmm. PS: No. And I don't know why that is. Urn, for some reason a college education has never been one of the important things for an Eastern Cherokee. And why that is, I've never really set down and thought about it but uh, there's people, why do you go to college to begin with? Supposedly, you go to college to improve your chances of being successful at whatever you do whether it's teachin', playin' a sport, whatever. That's never been a real concern even though if you've got a college degree if you apply for a job in Cherokee you're almost certain to be picked over someone who doesn't have a degree consequently, there's not that many Eastern Cherokee graduates that's setting around waiting to apply for jobs. Therefore, having a college education is not that beneficial to the young people. Because uh, you know with the Casino there's people that never even thought about going on to college that's making fifty thousand dollars a year, you know, and with a high school diploma. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, it doesn't lend itself to go on to school because I could be out there making fifty thousand dollars a year instead of going to school to get me prepared or qualified to earn that kind of money. So why do I need to do that? I can, for four years I can be drawing that kind of money, you know and be buying things with it. Eh, I don't know, times have really changed. TC: Were you the only minority person on your team and the rest of 'em were white? PS: Now what? TC: Were all the other players on the teams you were on at Western were they white? 8 PS: Yeah. Uh, and that's another thing, I tell you a quick little story about Coach Gudger. And I couldn't swear that this happened but, but that was the word that carne out. There was a guy that was setting the world on fire playing basketball he 'bout six seven, six eight probly averaged 'bout thirty some odd points a ball game, Gudger went to recruit him. And they claimed that this is what he said when he was introduced to this young man. He said you're the player that I want and need, you're just the wrong color. (laughs) There was not one black student at Western. TC: The whole time you went there? PS: Yeah. Not one. TC: Were there any black workers? PS: Not that I remember. They was one that was uh, like the equipment attendant at the gym that issued towels and things like that when you got through nah, they was still very much segregated. TC: In your experience do you think you were treated differently because you were Cherokee? PS: Urn, I wouldn't think so, not to that extent to where it would be that noticeable. Urn, I probably was given more opportunities because of me being a Indian but I don't think, well I know for sure that, I never went up to somebody and they never gave me a hundred dollars 'cause I was a Indian uh, but some of the opportunities uh, would be better than I would have received had I not been an Indian. I'm pretty sure of that. TC: Why do you think that is, that you were given more opportunities but then a black person wasn't? PS: It was just the thing, that's like urn, I have been in redneck bars, redneck restaurants I have had a lot of real inquisitive looks come my way I have never ever been refused service anywhere I've ever been. That includes, now I've been to almost every state in the Union, but I would be served where a black person would have to go around to the back. And that reminds me of another little funny story. (laughs) I, at Fort Benning, Georgia, Fort Benning, Georgia is just a few miles from Phoenix City, Alabama. Phoenix City, Alabama was Little Chicago. Every weekend there'd be some soldier found floating down the Chatahoochee River. That's the kind of business, I never remember seeing one church in that town, there was not one church in that town, but even the filling station had slot machines. (laughs) It's uh, talk about being served urn, I've never been refused you know I drink out of the white fountain and really it didn't seem like it was that bad because Indians are sorta like black people, if there's another black person there who you think that black person is gonna associate with? He's gonna associate with the other black. If you go to a big luao if there's three Indians sitting over at a table guess where I'm gonna sit? I'm gonna sit with the Indians, it may not be right, I'm pretty sure it's not right, but that's just the way it is. And you grow up, just like that story about Gudger, he made the statement if I coulda gotten him down here, got him into school, and let him play his first game we woulda integrated this school, he's that good. Since he was black there was no way I coulda offered him a scholarship. Who was the first black athlete at Western? He was exceptional. He was six feet tall and he could stand flat-footed and jump and dunk it with both hands, at six feet tall. I had to struggle with me six four and get a running start in order to get up there high enough to dunk it. I can't get Jordan off my mind, start talking about basketball I start thinkin' about 9 Jordan. (*Michael Jordan) Uh, Logan, Logan was his name Henry Logan. I took my team up 'ere of course, I used the team to get us in free, and so we were there and uh, that's the first time I had ever seen Henry Logan, this was the first year I coached at Cherokee, I'd had heard of him but I, the accolades that were bestowed on that guy didn't come anywhere close. He was fantastic. He handled a basketball like a yo-yo. And I'll never forget we were watching him and they were playin' Lenoir-Rhyne, Logan was out front and one of Lenoir-Rhyne players stole the ball and was headed to the other end him against nobody but the wind, but he knew Logan was coming, so instead of trying to shoot a lay-up shot he was all the way to the comer turned around and went up to shoot a jump shot and when came down he just held the ball, Logan (At this time Mr. Smith gets up out of his chair and stands to show me that Logan had one hand on the rim and was suspended with half of his body above the rim) had the rim right there and he was six feet tall. (laughs) I have never seen a human being (he sits back down) that could jump like that. That was another one of Gudger's fine speeches, it took him a long time to teach him how to jump like that. (laughs) I used to say the difference between an Indian and a black playing basketball, they both jump but the Indian has to come down. (laughs) The black they don't come down they just stay up 'ere. (laughs) TC: Well over all how would you rate your experience as an athlete at Western College? PS: Ah. Couldn't be better. Uh, there's people even as small as we were back then that would pull four years up there, graduate, and nobody would know even what their name was, not so for me, everybody knew who I was. A lot of 'em probly didn't appreciate it, but they knew who I was and that's part of being an athlete uh, whether you acknowledged the fact that's sorta bred into us we enjoyed the pedestal and the people put you on that pedestal. And then the only one's you'd hear anything bad about is those people that what was that guy's name that Vit? With the dog fighting? TC: Michael Vick? PS: Yeah, most of your athletes they're put on a pedestal but they's some things that even the people that put you on that pedestal ain't gonna put up with and that was one of 'em. So other than that I really, I fairly enjoyed it urn, I know my grades suffered uh, I would like to think that I could've been a better student academic wise, if I had had more time, or had I not, even if I hadn't, even the year that I had to quit it didn't really help me that much because my mind was still there, it never left, it was still there, and so if you're not an athlete and you've never experienced that consequently, it doesn't bother you. You figure out something else that you can uh, achieve or to build yourself on, you know everybody's got to have something you know. Urn, some kind of goal in life, you know and it's been one of my pet sayings I guess and I don't know where I learned this I'm pretty sure it was probly some workshop somewhere somebody's ___ the only way to approach a kid is you put the monkey on his back or on her back. And whatever happens, when it comes to academics how do you grade how successful you are in academics? Grades right? That's all there is. Therefore, you tell this young person when you get that grade and you look at it and I don't care what it is A, B, C, D, or F you ask yourself this question, Is this me? Is this the best I can do? If you look at it and it's a C and you say yeah, that's the best I can do, me, you or anybody else could disagree with that because if that guy knows hey, I'm a C student, Ds ain't gonna get it. Every now and then you throw in an A or a B, but you've got to look at it and say is this the best I can do? And if you say yes that's the best I can do and if you're honest with yourself the rest of your grades should reflect that. Right? 10 (laughs) They should reflect that because if you say no, uh-uh I'm better than this then your next grade should reflect that. And that was one of my best coaching tactics there, are you giving me the best you got? If that's the best you got I don't need you. (laughs) But if that's the best you've got hey, I can't ask for any more. TC: So do you know who the first person to call you Chief was? PS: Lord no. As a matter of fact, all the time I was in the service urn, I had a few Chiefs urn, but mostly it was Cherokee, my name was Cherokee and nobody knew what my name was. Then the funny thing about that was I used to tell people they'd say Smith, that's not an Indian name. Where'd you get a name like Smith? I'd say you remember Captain John? (laughs) and Pocahontas? 'Til I found out they didn't have any kids. (laughs) But I did, I used that for a long time. Captain John Smith, I was a direct descendant. TC: So tell me some stories about you playin' ball. PS: Tell you some what? TC: Some stories. PS: Oh lord. Urn, I'll give you one. We were in some kind of a money-raising event or something, we played the Arkansas Travelers, it was a all womens team. And as a half time show Chief, with the world's record holder at free throws was gonna free throw exhibition. TC: That was you? PS: That was me. I beat her. However, (laughs) I couldn't do it again in a thousand years. Because she just didn't shoot regular free throws, from all different positions. The one that was the hardest was to shoot a basketball up ten feet to the goal kneeling, try that sometime. It looks like that basketball goal is a mile away. I think I hit nine outta ten. (laughs) I couldn't do it again to save my life. If you had a gun on me and said if you don't shoot this basketball nine outta ten i'ma shoot you, you'd have to shoot me. But that was it, I beat the world champion. On top of that our JVs were the ones that played 'em, I wuttin' on the JV team, but I was sorta like a uh, for want of a better word I guess some kind of a draw to get people to come and watch 'em. So being Chief, you know being Indian, it had it's rewards but it also had uh, its problems. TC: So the reason they wanted you to play was to draw people? PS: Sure. TC: Was that just that night or do you think it was PS: Just that night. Because I didn't play with the JVs, I was Varsity, but for this particular night, the Chief was gonna compete against the Arkansas Travelers. TC: Well did youns win the game? PS: Oh yeah. Before we went out to play, Coach said they've asked us not to run 'em, full court press, but we're gonna play 'em like we play basketball, we're gonna play like we intend to win and that's what we're gonna do. We'll go along with all their little tricks, you know they have all 11 this crazy stuff going on but their tricks end up with two points. You watch' at every time you watch these traveling teams, globetrotters, every one of their tricks ends up with them getting a basket. And he said you guys get out there and get you 'bout a twenty point lead then we'll play with their tricks. (laughs) And so that's what we did. TC: So the team you played that night was like the Harlem Globetrotters of today but they were all women? PS: Yeah, Arkansas Travelers. I don't know, they's probly not enough people living to even remember that you know. TC: Well do you have anything that you wanna to add? PS: Hmm, no. I don't know whether I appreciate this or not, I don't know if I want to remember that far back or not. But no, I enjoyed college and I think that I've already eluded to a lot of the reasons why. Uh, if I did not have a college degree I could not have coached because at that particular time in life in order to coach basketball in the state of North Carolina you had to have a degree. It's not like that anymore. You can go out here and pick up somebody off the street, you wanna coach basketball? That's how that goes now but back then not. TC: Well let's look at these pictures then. (*cartoons attached) PS: (laughs) TC: I'm curious about 'em. So this was you when you scored all them points against PS: Yeah, the Arkansas Travelers. See on her shirt. TC: Yeah, so you were sittin' on the court shootin' those foul shots? PS: Yeah, yeah. TC: And you made nine outta ten? PS: Yeah. TC: So when it says right here, What's the matter chief? Outta practice, they were joking? PS: Yeah. TC: Cause you were making all those shots. PS: Ah, you see how they got that, how the balls going? TC: Yeah. PS: I didn't shoot like that. That ball didn't go like this (*he motions with his hand like the ball turned a flip before it went in) TC: (laughs) 12 PS: That's just somebody, whoever drew that and back then I was the first person at Western that had an earring. There was nobody in Cherokee that wore a earring, not a man, but me. TC: What'd people say about that? PS: It's like being an athlete in college you know, it got you recognized. (laughs) TC: Were there people that after they saw your earring went out and got them a earring? PS: Oh they was one, not funny story about the earring really 'bout playing ball urn, we were playing for this I'm thinking, this Horseshoe Grocery team I was playing with urn, we were lining up, the opposition was going to shoot a free throw and I was on the inside, you know you line up the uh defensive player then an offensive player then a defensive player then the shooter and I was right up under the basket you know and they get more rebounds than anybody else does. That's' all you have to do step up in front of this guy and you got the position over him not unless he's goes over your back and so rather than wear the earring I put a broom straw through the hole because it was relatively new and it would close up. And so I put a little piece of straw 'bout like that (*shows with his fingers how long the straw was) through there and broke it off, you know. And there was a referee standing right there watching the lane you know, violation all of a sudden he blew the whistle and blew the whistle, time-out, time-out, time-out and I had just got off the floor down there I was going' after a loose ball or something and he thought I had jammed a splinter in my ear (laughs) he called time-out and I don't know which one of us felt worse me or the ref when he realized it was a hole in my ear. TC: What made you decide to get your ear pierced? PS: Urn, I was a, when I was at Fort Benning, Georgia I was a jumper, I was a paratrooper and that's the same reason I got my jump wings tattooed on my chest, you belonged to this group you know, so in order to be able to tell who all was in the group we'll wear a earring. And so we did. TC: In this picture it's you and it says Come on Hawg Jaw, what's that mean? PS: They was a football player on the team that uh, his name was Hawg Jaw, his nickname was. Those are some of the things I said. TC: Did you ever. .. PS: Check those, check those pants. You shoulda seen what I was wearing. They were gray with black cross belt loops with flaps on the pockets oh I was a, I was something. (laughs) I was different, and I planned it that way. (laughs) Well, Tonya I gotta get some work done. TC: Ok, well thank you. PS: Yeah, you're very welcome. 13

Phillip Smith, a student at Western Carolina College in the 1950s, discusses playing basketball and baseball under Jim Gudger, being nicknamed ‘Chief’ by his teammates because he was Cherokee, and race relations at the time.

• Creator
  • Smith, Phillip
• Contributor
  • Carroll, Tonya
• Format
  • Sound recordings
  • Interviews
• Type
  • Sound
• Date
  • Date interview: 2009-10-03
  • Date: 1950s;
  • Date digitized: 2014-12-04
• Extent
  • Duration: 0:42:25 (sound recording)
  • Duration: 13 pages (transcript)
• Subject - Topic
  • Autobiography
  • Baseball players
  • Basketball players
  • College athletes
  • Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians
  • Smith, Phillip -- Interviews
  • Southern States -- Race relations -- History -- 20th century
  • Western Carolina College -- Students
  • Western Carolina University
• Location
  • Jackson County (N.C.)
• Source institution
  • Western Carolina University
• Source Collection
  • WCU Oral History Collection - HIST 474/574
• Identifier
  • HL_HIST474_Carroll_Smith_2009-10-03_audio
• Repository
  • Western Carolina University Hunter Library