• Format
  • Transcripts
  • Interviews
• Type
  • Text
• Extent
  • Duration: 19 pages
• Source institution
  • Western Carolina University
• Identifier
  • HL_HIST474_Hughes_Carson_2009-11-20_transcript

Wayne Carson Interview 1 Carson, Wayne, interview by Kevin Hughes, Canton, NC, 20 November 2009. KH: I'm Kevin Hughes and today I'm sitting down with Wayne Carson to talk about the Canton paper mill. Wayne, is it alright with you if I record this conversation? WC: Yes sir. KH: Okay, thank you very much. When did you begin working at the Canton mill? WC: Employment date is February the 21st, 1959. KH: Who owned the mill at this point in time? WC: Well, of course it was stockholders, but the Robertson family was basically ... I never did see the stocks ... I guess had more controlling interest, because you had Rueben B. senior chairman of the board and Rueben junior president of the company. KH: And you saw them a bit more than you saw the other stockholders? WC: Yes. Of course many under the employ never did personally meet them, but still, in meetings they'd have with us and so on. Rueben, Jr. stayed primarily in Hamilton, Ohio, which was the main headquarters at the time, Knots Ridge they called it. And senior was here at Canton, he had an office at the main office up here. KH: Okay, did you work anywhere else before you began working at the Canton mill? WC: Yes, a filling station, stores - two or three - in the old days here around Canton, even Biltmore Dairy Farms, as a helper on their wholesale route. They sold so much milk to the stores back then; they had to have a helper. KH: Kind of like UPS around Christmas time. What got you interested in switching from your other jobs to the Canton mill? WC: I guess primarily money, but money's not everything. I was satisfied. They were hiring in, well, ‘58 and ‘59 real heavy and maybe 1960. People kept- I was 19 years old, married and didn't have children at the time, but people kept saying, why don't you put your application in at Champion, they're hiring. Anyway, I was making $50 a week working at the store I worked at and that was pretty good. But anyway, I finally did and a couple of three weeks went and they called me. So, I went through the process of being examined and taking tests and everything. It took maybe a month or so, but I was hired then. That was probably in ‘58, in the later part, when I put my application in. I started out in salary, hourly of course. Let me think ... A dollar fifty nine an hour, now that sounds pretty cheap, but that's three months, and then you got a raise. You had to have a three months probationary period. I believe it went to a dollar - I'm trying to go by memory - seventy nine or eighty nine, I forgot which, it's been over fifty years ago. Made it through the probation and didn't get in trouble. Naturally, you got insurance, good benefits and I mean even though it sounds like a low rate - actually, it'd be more than I was making at $50 a week, no benefits. Even at the store job I worked at, it was a grocery store. He had a delivery, I'd deliver twice a day, people called in orders and so on. About seven o'clock till six is how many hours? Nine? Nine, five days a week plus Saturday for $50 a week. So I was making pretty good at $50 in ‘59. KH: One of the first restaurants I worked at, after working there a few months, I Wayne Carson Interview 2 tried talking to the owner of the restaurant about my hourly rate and he said I don't pay by the hour, I pay by the day. [laugh] WC: I was glad to get the other store I worked at I made $28 in half a week. So, I got a good raise at $50. We made it. KH: In your first like ten years at Canton what do you remember about worker morale at the plant? WC: Really, honestly, I just have to say my part. Very good, I never did see anything negative. You had, when I went to work at 19, there was a lot of fellows there that were 40s and in their 50s, some even in their 60s in age. A lot were retiring, because what was [accomplished], started production in 1908. So, you're talking about help me out a little... KH: About fifty years of operating. WC: Yeah, so you've got a lot of these older follows, not that actually started there, but still the workforce was getting older, so that was one reason for the hiring and all, in the later '50s there, very satisfactory under the old plan of Champion, Champion spirit, and leadership and Christmas bonuses and different things. Even, I guess you had others talk to you about it, had what we called the old age bonus. After you worked 5 years you got a 5% wage adjustment, 10 years 10, went on to 25% So, you could actually be working on the same paying job as somebody else, but if they had been there a long time, they'd draw 25% more on the same job than you was getting. Nothing unfair, but I guess in the '20s or '30s Champion started that for an incentive for people to... way back in the early days people would work a year or two and then quit, and do something else here in the mountains, farm or whatever and then they'd come back. Hard to keep a regular workforce, that was one of the Champion incentives. KH: I think that is something a lot of industries struggle with, is how to keep people for more than two years. WC: You know you can train somebody depending what field at the mill they was working for and if they quit, all that's gone, so to speak. KH: With those early years of working at Champion, what do you remember of community mill relations? Was there a certain perception of Champion employees? WC: One of the things about the town of Canton and all of the surrounding areas wherever you live [inaudible] Champion is involved in sports, the YMCA, in fact the founder of the company Rueben B's daddy-in-law built the YMCA out of his own money for the community. You didn’t have to work at Champion or be employed to join and belong or get into their programs. It was such a help to the youth, it wasn't just all for youth, but swimming pool, all the sports programs, had pool tables there. Primarily the older ones or the adults played pool. It wasn't like the old pool halls in the honky tonk areas, I mean nothing like that went on, but it was just a fun thing. You could go there to read, all sorts of things went on. The Y was a great community thing. And then too any other programs that Champion had went on out the help, churches, community, [inaudible] always involved in civic type stuff, that's what I remember as growing up here. KH: What do you remember of the environment, of the river or the air quality as you Wayne Carson Interview 3 were growing up? WC: The river and air quality? KH: Well, those are the main two, but the environment in general of the surrounding area. WC: Well, if you was born and raised here you didn't pay that much attention. [laugh] And, I'll take up a little bit for Champion. I lived through the years and still worked there, the environment, you begin to hear a lot about it in the late '50s and '60s, then it grew to the '70s and '80s, and it really became a big thing with all the government and everything, OSHA and everything else. In the early days they wasn't polluting because they wanted to, over the whole country, all of the manufacturers. Whether it was air or it was water it didn't, even the town of Canton never did have a sewage treatment plant. You're saying something bad, but unless it's a big city somewhere, it's straight piped all in the river right down there. But, when Champion began to improve and waste treatment and built their small facility they treat and still do today all of Canton, all of their sewage, probably have an agreement. But the town's sewage help, you got to have bugs in the waste treatment, that helps those bugs. That bacteria has to work there, but not technically. The reason I said I'd take up for Champion somewhat, it wasn't just Champion. Of course, one of the things that affected the river was it's being a large manufacturing on a small river. So, there wasn't that much water to after they was through with their water and their black water, from cooking chips primarily, wasn't much to mix it with. If you had a great big river, you wouldn't notice it as much. As technical stuff come along, regulations, they had a hard time to start with, of meeting it. But, from my understanding, they’re below all the things that are required of them today. KH: That's my understanding as well. WC: Took several years. But, growing up here the tourists, this used to be the main road 19/23 going west, lots of tourists, summertime especially and fall every year. Lots of traffic jams right through Canton because of the heavy traffic, as more people bought cars, 1950s and '60s. And they still say today, they come through here, here at the visitor's center, what's that odor? It's not near as bad as it used to be, but on certain humidity days you can still smell the paper mill. KH: I first started coming through here commuting from Asheville to Western and I thought the smell, the area I grew up in, the big industry was Waste Management, they had a couple of huge landfills there and if you caught an odor that was the odor you were catching so I just immediately assumed there was a landfill around here. I hadn't smelled a paper mill before. WC: The common thing, I still say it today. Well, they'd say, shew, what's that odor? We'd say that's money a makin'. They weren't making greenbacks over here, but when you smelled the odor, you knew that from the chips, what's coming out the front end was paper and paper products, so money was a makin'. KH: I hear you. WC: One more story, I'll side track a little. This was in the '80s when there was a real battle going on with Tennessee and North Carolina, the environment, and what's the federal? Wayne Carson Interview 4 KH: The EPA WC: The EPA was all in to it, over the regulations and variance on the... what do you call it, where they have to get a permit, they run on a variance permit for a while. One of the fellows I visited down below Canton in the Iron Duff Section here of Haywood County, Pigeon River run through his farm. He was an older man, even older than I am now, I'm 70, I visited him occasionally. One day we were visiting with him and he was telling me about the river and he said: "I've lived here 40 or 50 years," I don't remember at the time right now, old family farm, he was a widow, all of his children were already, he was still on the old farm, still farming at that age. He said: "My cattle," though he didn't have any creeks, he had small, what we call branches here, that's a smaller creek, springs that fed, and they all go into the Pigeon down below here. He said: "But, my cattle will go out and walk out into the river and drink out of that black water," and he says, "never hurt them or anything, but they even prefer to drink out of the river than they would out of the clear little branch here on my place." He said, "They don’t always do that," but he explained to me, "Now, I've lived here all of these years," that's what he told me, so. Another story that went on about the river was if you had a dog with mange on it, you could throw it in the river and it would cure it. Some of the boys would get into bad poison oak and they said you could get in the river and it would take away the poison oak [laugh] Anyway, all kinds of things were said about the river over the years. KH: Did you ever go swimming in the river, growing up? WC: Not really, because I couldn’t swim. [laugh] I waited until they got the pool over here and had shallow water and so on and ropes. If it got too deep you [inaudible] the lower rope. KH: Do you remember any fishing in the river growing up? WC: I didn't, I wasn't much of a fisherman. I still never have been. But, some of the other people did. Of course you didn't catch bass or trout or anything like that, except way on down toward in the lower part of Crabtree and Iron Duff, the lower part of Haywood County. Of course some of the trout streams are such as I believe Cataloochee Creek pours in about where Walters Dam is down there. But, they would even catch some of the game fish in the old lake down there, which Carolina Power still has, down on 40 there. KH: What do you remember of the union being voted in back in the '60s? WC: I'll give you a little personal background on that. Seemed like as a whole the mill was satisfied, I'm talking about people, younger ones, see when I went to work we had a lot of younger employees like me, but you still had the old work force and under the old Champion way. But when Rueben Robertson, Jr. got killed in , I believe it was March of 1960, I'd been there a little over a year, it was a tragic thing, he was about 52 and he got struck by an automobile, and killed of course. Why just in a either that week or the next week in two weeks the Champion Board had met and they elected… Rueben Sr. decided to step aside and be honorary chairman of the board. Now, he still was a member of the board, but he still not in the controlling - they elected Karl Bendetson, which was already a vice-president and he had been over Texas division, Pasadena but he had moved up in the company. He was something like over manufacturing. Another big job, but not in the executives as far as controlling you know. But, they elected him president and one of the Thompson's as chairman of the board, Dwight, I believe. Well, Wayne Carson Interview 5 nearly overnight the old ways began to change and within a few months whether it was wages, whether it was the Christmas bonus, within, by the late '60s, I'm going by memory or early ‘61, they started laying off people. Especially a lot of the younger people, cutting benefits, your Christmas bonuses, even had some big layoffs, they went to cleaning house, some of the employees over the years, had what we called rode the insurance. They were out of work a lot, their backs and this and that and the other, some of them were sick and a lot of them weren't. So they actually fired hourly and salary people, let them go. Besides the young ones and even boss men got let go and so on. Well this really tore up the whole system. And, that didn't happen overnight. So, you got to hearing then Union. Some of them had petitioned the union, so they campaigned. I was there, in these first years. I'm going by memory, but when did the union go in? '65? KH: '66. WC: '66, okay, I'm still going by memory, but we had either three different votes or four over the, in about four or five years. Of voting on, you know, they petitioned them. KH: And, from what I've read it was usually pretty heavily against the union. WC: Yeah, yeah, but they didn't let up the controlling now with Karl Bendetson. Like it used to be, even as far as the community and the Y and the towns and all this, it didn't cut it off over night, but it definitely changed. KH: I think I read something about, it's now the academy up the street here was the new Y. Was that built during the union drives that were going on, by the company again? WC: Along, in there, I can't tell you, I believe they opened the new one in '65. Reuben Sr. was still alive. They still funded it, but it become more… instead of Champion funding it, now to belong to it you paid a little fee of joining. But it wasn't much, maybe $20 a year I forgot. Anyway, actually the reason of the new Y was they decided to put in #19 board machine. Shut the old board mill down, which was small, little machines that had been there since the start of the plant in 1908, and put in a number one machine at the time. I believe it started running in '65, but they needed the space where the Y was and the company store. Reuben Sr. personally give $250,000 for the new Y and then the community got workers and civic and all and put up the rest of the money. So, there's where the new Y come from. But then it, as I mentioned, come out of the… been so much funding it, the new program was for it to stand on its own and it did for a few years. Now it reverted back to later Champion and they used it for training. The Y, I'm not going to say went bankrupt but it ceased to be it couldn't fund it enough to pay everything that went on through the Y programs. KH: How did the workplace change with the first union contract? WC: Not drastically, went to keeping up naturally better with seniority, stricter rules, for instance you were working say come in on 3 to 11. You know everybody had seniority always did in a way still but some it was done if you was a pet of the boss you might get to work on the higher job before the union, not always, nothing wrong, but somewhat different. But, with the union it was more if you was due for and there come a step up, you got it and the only way that you wouldn't be you could sign the job away or sign the step up away and you'd let two people go around you so to speak. There's rules, Wayne Carson Interview 6 that changed a lot. And then no boss, supervisor had to naturally was on salary, they wasn't allowed to do any work period and before whatever you was doing the boss didn't knock you out of work, but he was in there. For instance, if a work in the roll storage department, we loaded cars or what we called broke. Boss man he'd get on a jitney and he'd you know just all that changed. Worked in the lower end, the pulp mill we had to watch spill overs since the tanks would get too full and run stock over. It'd be knee deep and you'd have to wash it up and so on because you couldn't leave it there. And the boss might have to wash stock for an hour or two, but after the union, you'd get a grievance. Hourly man would file a grievance, so anyway, it changed. Not everything I thought was good but nothing real bad with the union. KH: On the union getting voted in, did you join the union? WC: Yes, I didn't vote for it to go in, I didn't campaign for it not to be, but just like a local election whatever why when it got there I joined. Let me say this you've got all kinds of people even then and now, but they just last week, week before, voted in the next contract with Evergreen. You could pay some people even way back when I did work a hundred dollars an hour but they'd want more money they didn't want to do no more work. And always was that even under Champion, we want the top pay in the job, but we don't want to do no work, we want a bunch of holidays, we want gravy but. It's always like that. KH: Did joining the union or the union coming into the workplace change your attitude toward work at all? WC: No, not really you still worked for all in all it was a little more different even than the years that come by three year contracts later I believe we're on about a five now, I'm not sure but it's been a few years since I worked. You still had some... Wayne's friend is leaving the museum/visitor's center. The recorder is stopped while they say goodbyes. KH: Okay, do I have your permission to record this conversation? WC: Yes sir, we'll try again. KH: Thank you, and did the union coming into work change your attitude toward work at all? WC: Not really, not drastically as I might have mentioned before some it did and it changed some of the supervision and little different rules and even looking back whether it was supervision or the workers it didn't, it took a while to get into the right kind of, you know, but as I remember working in several different groups in the mill from what we call the front end paper manufacturing to the storage department down to all over the mill before it was over with. Well, different areas had different type of work and different supervision. There's some things that you might have to you didn't break rules but if you needed somebody else to help in an emergency type situation, I mean nothing about to blow up or anything like that, you didn't worry about whether it was a supervisor or not, you just needed some help. It wasn't took to the extremes about, you know, is this going to break a union rule or a company rule or what. I'm not talking about safety now, but it took a while just as anything else. If I was to buy a new car, we've got a Ford Escape that's a smaller four wheel and then we have an Explorer and they've both got all kind of things, Wayne Carson Interview 7 but I don't drive the Explorer too much and I can't tell where to turn which button for what, that's about the way of the union and management I'll say. KH: Did the union coming in change anything in relations between the mill and the community? WC: Not drastically, because some of the same programs was carried on as I've mentioned. When Reuben Jr. died it began to change, but it was over a period of years. I'm not saying that even the company or the now we've done more things, you know like the union done things for it, just being recognized as the union for the community, good things. I can't remember anything bad where at the other time it'd just be Champion, which would be workers and so on, but I can't remember of any bad situations even as far as strikes. Fortunately, and I know you might not have it in this report, but a way back in the '20s there was a strike here but they really didn't have a union. It was they just shut the mill down because the union was trying to get in the mill, that's what it was about. There was threatenings of strike, we'd vote to turn the contract down over several different times that I can remember, but we never did. They always got together. Basically, I'll comment this… a strike don't help neither side very much, if you want a dollar more an hour if you stay in a strike for any length of time you've done lost whatever raise you'd have got. Alright I'll change subject or you do it. Recording is paused for a phone call. KH: We had talked a little bit about the strike back in the 1920s. During your time working at the mill as different union contracts came up for approval, was there any movements among the rank and file members during the votes to try and opt for a strike instead of into a contract? WC: No, you have various ones. It wasn't a compromise or anything as I might have mentioned already I couldn't see any point in striking, but you still had various ones. And I might have mentioned this on this interview, but you could pay some of them $100 an hour and they still wouldn't want to do much of any more work. You can never please everybody, we all know that. I do not remember even the ones that always negative ever you know trying to get a bunch to strike. That was just a personal opinion, but naturally whatever we got didn't always please everybody. It's just like you vote for the president or whoever, you still wind up getting whoever the majority voted for. I never did see any animosity before or even after a contract was signed. KH: Is it correct that most of the workforce at the mill here was within the union? WC: Yeah, most of them, yeah. KH: Was there any difference in relationships between say the union and nonunion members who worked? WC: No, you know I never heard anyone made fun of or anything. But, just like there's freeloaders, they got all the benefits whether they belonged or paid any dues or not but actually the dues weren't that much. I never was aware of any. I'd say what else they call them, scab, I believe that was one of them. Is that the right word? KH: I think scab is usually used when, if the union members are out on a strike and people go in and work while the strike is going on. Wayne Carson Interview 8 WC: It seems like we might have called them, you might be right. We had some... KH: It wouldn't surprise me if that term were used. WC: We had some that never did join and so on but right now I can't even think who some of them was but... KH: They might have gotten a little bit of ribbing for not joining. WC: I cannot never remember, personally, and I worked all over the mill eventually. KH: When you were approached to join the union or people talked to you about the votes corning up of whether to bring in the union or not, were you approached by organizers from outside the mill or was it in conversation with employees from within the mill? WC: No, it was within the mill. I can't recall of any, I remember one fellow, he is deceased now, but he in there in the first group that I worked with was called the converting department, but it was the roll storage group. We would handle all of the rolls that would come off the paper machines, all of them. Whether we stored them in the basement eventually to go to the cutters to the finishing room or put them to be wrapped to go to the shipping department. That's what and it covered more than just rolls of paper, naturally the jobs but that was the group that I worked in. And, we had I remember one fellow whether he covered all shifts or not right now I can't recall, but he was the union man so to speak. He was really… campaigned nothing bad but in the early days they got the workers to sign a union card if you wanted so that would after the inside campaign those cards votes were counted with the employees name to whether they could petition I guess what would it be the state government or federal. KH: I'm not positive which, but I think it's the federal, with the National Labor Relations Board. WC: Probably, but anyway they had to have so much votes to petition to get a vote. That went on, but no force that I can remember. If you was displeased so to speak, some signed the card that was displeased or not just to give it a chance to vote. So that went on for as you remember either three of four elections over about four or five years, something. As you already mentioned probably on this one of the first big no votes two thousand one hundred and... Do you remember it? KH: I don't remember the exact number; I just remember there was like fifty yes votes maybe something like that. WC: Champion really celebrated on this. I'll tell you what they done. I'll say the antiunion, the no union people, they numbered the switch engine Champion's still got their own switch engine gets the rail cars that Southern brings in here, places them in the mill, railroad tracks everywhere they could put them. They put the number on the switch engine of the no votes two thousand one hundred and, twenty one hundred something. That was on there for several years, till the, finally after three or four years they finally got the union in. KH: Was that the first union petition that changed that engine number? WC: probably I don’t know it wasn’t a big thing. I’ve got some pictures here of the, Wayne Carson Interview 9 even had an article wrote in some of the things but, it was like celebrating. KH: I remember from an earlier conversation with you that you retired right around the same time that the employee shared ownership was starting [inaudible]. Before you retired, as you were working did you hear the news that the mil was up for sale when you were still working or was that? WC: No, it was after that. KH: Okay. WC: In fact let me give you a little insight, somebody else might not remember this, but I’m thinking back Andy Sigler, which was our chief executive officer, or Mr. Longbine, Robert Longbine, they worked together for a few years and I believe Longbine took over the company after Sigler’s time, you may have to check your records on which was first. I remember them coming and having some employee meetings though here at the mill. At the time, I’m going thinking [inaudible] in the 80s, companies over the United States of America was taking over other companies. They would buy them out. And Champion made the statement and they sent the executive officers here, and I remember the speech, we’re not going to be bought out, or we’re not selling out, we’re going to keep our company. And it was a strong company. But that was to avert any company from, if wasn't too many years later why as things did change. And two, Champion had bought out one company was Saint Regis, several more other smaller paper manufacturing companies merged. And one of the largest besides International Paper, but they did, going back to this time it was up for sale, the whole company, I don’t know if you studied this a little bit, I may be over talking what you already… only this plant was put up for sale. This Canton Division, it was put on the market for sale. The rest of it was going on. Champion their selves put this one, now this preceded the buyout. The buyout just got this and a few other package plants. KH: Right the dairy packs. WC: The whole company then [invests], in let’s see, this was ’99 right, am I right on the date? KH: ’99 is when the buyout went through and it was 18 months before that that they started actually trying to put the buyout together. WC: Even International Paper Company I remember at the time negotiated to get this part of the Champion. And they couldn’t come… Champion wanted a lot more money then what they finally agreed. One thing with them wanting to sell this part, wasn’t the fact, didn’t have nothing to do with the river as much as it was fighting the river, the problem, but everything was on the upturn about the river and the pollution and so on. But they’re wanting, this being the second oldest part of the Champion organization. Although it’s still running today, but it’s like having a ‘44 car, it’s in good shape, but it won’t run with a 2009 it just won’t keep up. So you know, it being an old mill and so on that may they decided to. Now they didn’t publish hey this is about to shut down this is an old mill that’s the reason we’re selling, but still running, still good production. But anyway, then after they did sell this, this buyout and so on, International bought all of Champion, everything. There’s no Champion today. No Champion today. So I think it happened in 2000, or 2001. So Champion didn’t last too many years after they sold this. And this was a takeover so to speak when they bought. And the old home plant in Hamilton, Ohio, that’s the mother plant, I visited Wayne Carson Interview 10 up there after International bought ‘em out. And the employees as I went around and visited and they took me a tour of the mill, the lady that took me we got on good terms, they had the regular route to go and she had been, she told me she had worked for Champion 28 years. She was in the public relations department. Anyway, then and still is today, International sold them out and didn’t ask them. They didn’t get a chance they knew that we had been able to buyout and now we’re Blue Ridge. And we were the second part of the Champion organization, this Carolina division. She told me personally, we wish that we had got a chance to buy ours. So they sold them out to investors and they really cut back and changed and shut it down a few weeks and reorganized and so on. They still had jobs, but they didn’t have a change to buy their own. KH: I was reading, there was a book that some of the people higher up in the Champion International management published, spread around, I think it was 1998. And when they mentioned their divestments of recent, they said, how was it that he put it? He mentioned that many of the mills that were up on the sale black looked into employee buyouts. At the moment, but when the book was being published only one was still looking at it. So the book was published while the 18 month process was going on. WC: Due to, I’ll say the whole paper industry, pollution, whether it be water or air, or even more, they are not, as you might know, there’s no new paper mills going up. And a lot of them, a few of them is as old as what we’ve got here now. Not many. But all the older ones is shutting down. And even International has closed. For instance they sold a home plant out they shut the Pasadena plant. It was number two in the Champion organization in Texas. Several more and the paper industry is tighter than it used to be as in the earlier days. There is not as much paper in a way used because of electronics and computers and. But there will always be paper. You’ve got to have some paper. KH: In studying history there is kind of something that something that gets mentioned now a days where it isn’t, there is no when you go into archives and you’re doing research on something, you try to find letters that people have written to each other. We’re starting to hit a point in time now where you’re not going to be able to find those letters 50 years from now. Are you going to go back in people’s email files and try to put together their emails for correspondence on what’s going on? WC: They are doing that with our terrorist outfit now. Excuse me. Also if you noticed, was it yesterday or the day before, the computers went something happened, KH: Oh the [inaudible] WC: Man they are scrambling, KH: It was one server in Salt Lake City, Utah that went down and that was. Everybody was grounded. WC: And you go to Wal-Mart or somewhere, occasionally they’ve had a power outage or something – shut down. KH: So, how long ago did you start working at the museum here? WC: For several years, but mostly in the background. I’ve after, let’s see, you had Wayne Carson Interview 11 Patrick Willis here for about 18 months, but there’s a period of time they really didn’t have anybody and just, not in a position, a paid position, they are paying me a little bit now. Didn’t have a director. But I’ve done a lot of stuff to help them out. Cause I know the history, born and raised here. One thing, I’m old, so you get old I’m history. [laugh]. I’ve done nothing, I’m not any great knowledge of anything. KH: We’re you in between… the time when you retired from the paper mill and when you started working here, were you still relatively involved in the community? WC: Somewhat. Being born and raised here, and you know, although I don’t live, I live about 10 miles from here, but Canton is home. Whether it be that Pisgah Bears now, it used to be the Canton Black Bears, it’s hard to get away unless you just move and leave. I think you’re from what Pennsylvania? KH: Yes. WC: Well Pennsylvania will always be home, you may be satisfied where you wind up. KH: I still get a little excited when I see the Philadelphia skyline flying in. WC: I live in Buncombe County, not even in this county, but on quieter days I can still hear, we have a mill while here you know, you’ve heard it blow. KH: yeah. [phone rings] KH: I do believe you had said that you know you were talking about growing up in the area it’s not really like you get uninvolved in the community. One thing I was curious about is the period of employee shared ownership here. Now from what I was reading, forget about what I was reading, what was your perception of the idea, how did you feel about the idea of employee shared ownership? WC: Not really being that involved, I had already retired, but by knowing so many people and still, I mean you know, actually worked with the mill under Blue Ridge, not worked for, under Blue Ridge, but still been involved as we’ve got a group, maybe I mentioned to you before, maybe a Snug Harbor group. Mr. Reuben B. Robertson started a retirement, a little club so to speak for the retirees in 1953 I believe, and it’s still going on. But it’s, I’ve been and we have every year an old-timers party once a year. And usually this year, we had around 475. And to be able to have that party and everything Blue Ridge still funded us. Evergreen is still, takes about anywhere from $6,000 to about $8,000 to fund this fellowship, mill and everything to do with it. So been able to work even through the buyout, the Blue Ridge, with these people. And most of them were, not this is not bad, but leftovers from Champion era. Not all of them. And then you know you had newer people come in and got acquainted with those and even same way now with Evergreen. But normally I don’t say anything negative of Blue Ridge or Evergreen, Evergreen seems to be more, they are opening up some. I know you’ve been here a little while, but they were more secretive so to speak because you didn’t hear nothing. What they are doing or going to do. [laugh] Whereas a lot of things you might hear you go to the barber shop. KH: That would have to be a big change from the Blue Ridge Paper ownership Wayne Carson Interview 12 because I imagine with all of the employees having a share of the ownership that it would just be almost common information what was going on. WC: Yeah, you’d hear things. And most of them they, of course some people is bad to start a rumor and there wouldn’t be nothing to it. [laugh] Or hear a part of something and then it wouldn’t work out. So we talk about here, the barber shop, go to the barber shop and you hear all kind of things. I think the ladies got a beauty shop gossip. KH: As you can see I haven’t been to a barber shop in quite a while, but I remember growing up with that environment. When the purchase went through, when I was reading about that, it seemed like one of the groups that they brought into the fold like it was a very wide reaching operation to actually bring it to happen, like getting in touch with politicians and other local businesses and just bringing everybody together on the idea to keep the mill running. One of the groups that I was interested in them bringing in was the environmentalist who since the 80s had protested pretty heavily or brought lawsuits against. Did you see anything as far as what the Blue Ridge Paper Company did any different from Champion as far as being environmentally friendly? WC: Not any drastic thing. They took as far as they got with Champion and fit right in, had them blend in actually. And still as I mentioned you had still Champion people that worked in that and we’re working now for Blue Ridge and all that in a way we say dovetail it, it means it all of course they worked on it to even make it better. It’s all a progression even now to Evergreen. There is a lawsuit now as you are aware of. I can’t see how they do it, but you’ve got three fellows here down river, still in Haywood County, I know one is a farmer and all, got a suit for a lawyer, I forget how many million, now going on over the river. Are you aware of that? KH: No. WC: Well that’s. KH: I had heard on NPR the other day that the EPA permit was up for renewal, but they said in the news report was that it should be pretty standard. Just get reapproved. WC: This particular lawyer won a lot, at least one if not more lawsuits with the people in Tennessee and he made a statement a few years ago, I think you can just sue ever so often. KH: I heard that there's a lawyer from Tennessee possibly who said that until he dies he's going to sue every three years. WC: Yeah OK that's what I was referring. To so now whether that three years is a limit to this thing or what but I mean I don't know whether it's a law I mentioned it might be, but anyway that's what's being said. To me money is not everything. We all need it, but I say I'm not a compromiser, but I'd be ashamed if I lived here in Haywood County and you looked to mill whether it be Champion, Blue Ridge, or Evergreen it means more to the whole county even western North Carolina and Tennessee then just the employees. It affects Ingles the Ford places, the whole situation. I mean it feeds maybe not up front, but this goes down. I'm not saying pollute the river to keep it running but why do they keep suing if they're meeting all the standards which they are. They are better than, you are going to find that out, they are better than. And it's improved drastically it's just hard to figure. Wayne Carson Interview 13 KH: I think one last question on the environment of the area as we were talking one of the last times I was going out hiking around the area a lot, I was curious over the course of your life what changes have you seen in the surrounding environment? WC: As far as air, water, what? KH: Air, water, wildlife any kind of indicators you can think of. WC: Well one of the things when I was a smaller boy raised up a couple miles from the plant not right in town or anything. We used the bark [for bunkers] down here. All the bunk refuge was burned in a boiler and I am going to get rid of it but that wasn't the primary reason. See they had to debark the logs the wood, take the bark off in order to make good pulp. You can't use the bark to make pulp with. Anyway they burn it in bark boilers and didn't have no precipitators or any way of catching it so all the bark ash ran out and especially on the side of town that I grew up in, the black, it was just black flecks of... It wasn't burning or anything, but it was all over the trees and the land. Didn't kill them, it wasn't dangerous remember that. And then too some of the, if you see smoke today coming out of any of the stacks it's not really smoke it's hot and according to humidity, you come in here and it's raining or different types of how cold it is or what you think wow the mill is really smoking it's not smoke as far as smoke it's just hot air hitting the atmosphere. But back yonder really used to smoke, but now they've got precipitators and all this catches anything that goes out and I know that's on the standard of the EPA. KH: I remember reading that back in the early 80s when those lawsuits were started up they used to be signs on the interstate when you were going past year that one year fog for the next so many miles. WC: Had several wrecks here. You know Champion was always to blame, but you let hot air out in this valley in here and it creates fog. Another thing about I can't exactly remember it might've come out of the nine kilns but there was acid now it's not the acid that killed the… but it some type of something that went out in the air - you could buy a new car and overnight especially it would settle on it. In a year or two… everybody rinsed their car off every day. If it wasn't in the garage or something it would rust the car. It started in the chrome or anywhere there was any other thing besides smoothness. People had a lot of old work cars they were just old rusted cars you know that they kept their good car and the garage or something and then drove these old cars to work back-and-forth because it was all rusty everything. But you don't see that anymore. And even you buy a new car and especially before clear coat come along and you know automobiles had a lot of trouble with clear coat because Ford and Chevrolet too it would come off. But anyway in the days of enamel or lacquer paint if you had a two-tone car and just in six months or year after it quit rusting so much it would change especially on the darker color metallic you'd see little spots on the paint. Not rust, but something to the paint on the car. KH: How long ago was it that you saw that stop happening? WC: So it's been since what's this 2009 so I'm going to say way back into the 60s or 70s where you know I don't even remember now seeing rusty cars around because of the mill or even the paint changing. Today you don't have to worry about rinsing your car. I remember as a teenager staying with a friend of mine his daddy had work graveyard so he come in from work about 7:30 in the morning summertime and we'd hear him outside he had a ‘54 two-tone green car, ‘54 Ford. And I can even remember since you brought this up looking out the window we’d hear him come in after work and he'd be out there rinsing the car off. He’d do that before he went to bed. Washed that stuff that settled on it overnight because and that Wayne Carson Interview 14 would protect the paint. If you kept it rinsed off good it made a difference. That's been years since it doesn't even affect… there's nothing in there that affects your car that I'm aware of. KH: Over the course of your time around Canton how do you feel the Canton mill both and your work and being a member of the community how do you feel the Canton mill has fared economically compared to other mills in the same industry or even other industries another small towns. WC: Well here and especially in western North Carolina it was it was just a saying if you got a job at Champion you had it made. They had different… prices are different, wages in the mail. But as far as any other industry in this area you could even do as good just be a millworker no matter what position you got into whether hourly or salary it was the same as or good as if you had a college education here and had some other employment in some other field. I remember bringing that up when the union went to petition for a vote. Naturally the union had their ideas and they would have to us and I can't remember now in the mail I know that before the union was in we’d get stuff from Champion comparing Champion’s wages with union wages. And we always stood even with the nonunion as good as not in all jobs of a union plant, but still as far as average just as good as a union plant in other places. Naturally the union would try to get in. They’d have their union plants and comparison of three or four different ones same way with both sides look here's the whatever it was and then name where it was. All that's free public information. They're doing better with the union then you are with the Champion system. But that went on for a while, but still here in the mountains we could say our living expenses wouldn't be as high as it would be in Pennsylvania or New York or Ohio or somewhere else. So you had to look… even in voting there for several years, I'm raised up here, our economy… maybe I don't make as much money as I would in Pennsylvania, but our living expenses is not bad so. Anyway at all averaged out they’re still working. KH: That's why they come up with the idea of cost of living and what is a living wage. Take the expense of what rent or mortgage, property value, groceries all that stuff and what do you need to make hourly to not go into debt living in that area. Or not bankrupt yourself I guess living in that area. WC: Or plastic credit cards. KH: I've been trying to leave those at home. WC: Several different things here started I'll mention this, I'm off track, but Champion had a credit union and still called Champion Credit Union. It don't have anything to do now with Champion, but it was and did in the earlier days for several years. So the employees, now it’s anybody can join the credit union, but it was you could get loans personal, get your coworkers to go on a note and so on. It was a very, very that was one of Champion’s good ideas. Workers out it was Champions credit union. KH: One of the things, one of the differences that I first noticed about Champion or Canton versus other mill towns around the same time that Champion came into this area, and other mills that were operating as mill towns in the area, not even in this area, just Appalachian in general, it seem like the company came in and had the idea that our employees are going to take home any money and Champion was different in that in some way in that they weren't trying to keep all the money that they paid coming right back in it was almost like they wanted a town to be its own. WC: I'm backtracking but I think it might too if you I was just a farmer lots of them are independent and I'm not saying anything about just being a farmer, but some of the farmers Wayne Carson Interview 15 had done as well as somebody working in the mill. It's according to how good they farm or if they bought land or inherited land or whatever. Even in this area land wasn't back in the earlier days even 30 and 40 and 50 years ago like the price of land is now, but the farmer or just a worker or just man that didn't even own a farm could buy a track of timber and even before the chainsaw that's going way on back, but my day you’d have a chainsaw you’d haul wood in here on a pick-up truck if that's all you had. But a lot made their living and fed the family by selling with to Champion, pine wood, hardwood. The reason I mention the farmer why he had, most of the farms here in the mountains had a mountain or a place that they couldn't farm that had timber on it. Well they could make money by bringing wood to here at the mill. It just you had mentioned other manufactures you had Dayton Rubber Company or later Dayco Southern same place. West of here, Enka, in Waynesville you had the furniture factory. The old leather tanning factory, I believe they call that let's see you know Unagusta, that's furniture. Several more, less employees and not as big, but still they made pretty good wages. Even at Enka, but even some of those workers later on would come from Enka to Champion to work in Dayton Rubber Company here, but always a little better wage here in the paper industry. KH: Were any of those other industries that you mentioned did any of those ever unionize? WC: Yes, in fact they were union before Champion ever was. Champion was unusual to get this far in the mid 60s without a union for that long of a time because Enka was union and Dayton Rubber. They had strikes at Enka and Dayton Rubber in my lifetime. My mother worked at Dayton Rubber and so on. And then you had Acosta over at Brevard. It was a finer paper, more of a cigarette type paper, still cook there had pulp, I don't know I never visited their plant. But they were union and I’m not against union, but I still said earlier that strikes hardly improved anything. KH: That's another one of those things that fascinated me about the mill here because being in Pennsylvania was a close shop state so the union got voted in you had your probationary period and then you join the union if you want to keep working at that plant because if you got the benefits that the union got you paid into the union. And that's just something that fascinated me that there was union, the shared ownership period and everything because over my time in North Carolina, North Carolina is 49 out of 50 as far as union density in this country so it just kind of struck me when I heard on NPR a couple years ago about there being Smoky Mountain Local 507 and that up until a couple of years ago that the mill was owned by the employees. WC: This fellow that bought them out, I can't recall his name New Zealand, but he made [inaudible] The buyout wasn't that bad, but you had a downturn even started back more than what we are now until [inaudible]. Not blaming Republicans or Democrats we are just the whole world is in the situation realistically. But the paper industry even in my lifetime way back I want to work in ‘59 always been up and down. You’d have good years from one year to the next, but anyway that's still like it is some but it is changing. And you find out that it's still a really good place to work and so on but what I was kind of getting at even with those earlier years they make provisions for like had more warehouse stock and although maybe it wasn't selling at the time, but if you could store it and then get new customers and so on. I once said roll with the flow. Unions been good in lots of ways never been anti-union, but I always join and paid dues and had the opportunity. I can't ever remember filing a grievance so to speak because this is done wrong or that's done wrong. Others of course have, but I never was especially some of that worked overtime or something. Had rows over here some was silly. So if the foreman missed, had a work list, any extra work, your overtime, or if you was off, if they failed to call you you could file a grievance. Although you didn't work somebody else did, you got paid for it anyway. [laugh] Wayne Carson Interview 16 KH: You got paid for it. Got a check down in your pocket. WC: Oh yeah. All those things. And the poor foreman, sometimes these things were done by mistake oversight so you know. I didn't worry about it if they didn't call me I want to stay home anyway. With all people it's not like that it takes all kinds. KH: Down to my last question then. Is there anything else you would like to talk about today? WC: No, being working those years for Champion, we seen good times and bad and I can't think of nothing real bad that ever… and being around, many of my friends still work there and Blue Ridge and Evergreen and so on. Most of them can tell you I'm sure that it still a good place to work and it never has been a bad place. Everything is not perfect as you go to Western everything is not perfect, I'm not perfect. By whole whether union or nonunion it's still a good place to work. As I mentioned a little bit ago the new owners more were quiet but then working with some of the folks over there through I helped him out a lot with well we all work together still here with the 100 year celebration. We started out under Blue Ridge then here the buyout went to Evergreen. They come along and a little bit later we don't hear as much from them, but they're coming around more than they was. They are quieter people. The difference now let me get in the politics a little bit here. You didn't hear a whole lot and this is not Republicans or Democrats but from President Bush. Although he was our president and everything he done good and I'm not saying the best or anything. Obama, I tell you, you ain't going to miss nothing on Obama he's on TV every day. [laugh]. Whether it's good or bad you're going to hear about it. And the Champion way it was a little bit more open down through the years I'm not saying Evergreen by no means is bad, but they're just a little bit different. But they're coming around. Being able to still work with them through their 100 year celebration and this year’s Old Timers party they've just done well bent over backwards. Actually, we're hoping again this coming year for some more funds they fund that out of their own account this annual that's been going on we celebrated 75 years. Every year even during the wars and everything and Old Timers party. And that's not just for retirees. Mr. Reuben started way back when he first started this if you've been an employee 25 years or longer there is going to start having a yearly Old Timers party and so it’s a socialize thing. Usually has some speakers or something in the last few years we don't have as many, everybody just want to talk to each other no big speeches. And they feed us a good meal and so on and you get some fellowship with each other for several hours. They play bingo, and give away, for instance, Evergreen and it's been a tradition along with what Blue Ridge done and Champion and the last few years it's easier to give good gift cards whether it's to Lowe's or Walmart or something. Top winner, they give away tickets when you check in, and everybody gets a ticket and then they have a drawing at the end of the day $100, $50, 25 and so on, but several, it's just one grand prize $100. But several 50s giveaway and a whole bunch of 25's maybe even down to the 10s I forgot. Just a good feeling here in workers and former workers. Most of the people in town, most of the people in town. Again you don't please everybody and you don't get everything positive from everybody. Everybody's got an opinion. But if we all can work together. You've got your ideas and they've got… that's the way the unions work here since [inaudible]. They never struck, had a strike, probably use the wrong English. But I’m glad that they got another contract. You talk to some: “Oh we don’t need it, shoulda done this”. It’s going on. Good contract. Is that enough? KH: That's very good. WC: I hope I didn't wear you out. KH: Nope not at all thank you very much. Wayne Carson Interview 17 WC: Thank you if I can help you in anyway why just overlook my ol’ country ways. END OF INTERVIEW

Wayne Carson describes being hired on at the mill in the late 50s. He discusses the YMCA, the Robertson family, environmental issues, and the union. Although he was retired, Carson shares his perspective on the employee buyout, and Evergreen.

• Creator
  • Carson, Wayne, 1939?-
• Contributor
  • Hughes, Kevin
• Format
  • Sound recordings
  • Transcripts
  • Interviews
• Type
  • Sound
  • Text
• Date
  • Date interview: 2009-11-20;
  • Date: 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s;
  • Date digitized: 2017-02-22
• Extent
  • Duration: 1:23:27 (sound recording)
  • Duration: 19 pages (transcript)
• Subject - Topic
  • Air quality management
  • Blue Ridge Paper Products
  • Carson, Wayne, 1939-
  • Champion International Corporation
  • Champion Paper and Fibre Company -- Employees
  • Employee ownership
  • Employee stock options
  • Industries
  • Paper industry -- Environmental aspects -- North Carolina -- Canton
  • Paper industry -- Management -- Employee participation -- North Carolina -- Canton
  • Paper industry workers -- Labor unions -- North Carolina -- Canton
  • Paper mills -- North Carolina -- Canton
  • Robertson family
  • Robertson, Reuben B. (Reuben Buck), 1879-1972
  • Water quality management -- North Carolina -- Canton
  • Young Men's Christian Associations of North Carolina
• Location
  • Canton (N.C.)
  • Haywood County (N.C.)
• Source institution
  • Western Carolina University
• Source Collection
  • WCU Oral History Collection - HIST 474/574
• Identifier
  • HL_HIST474_Hughes_Carson_2009-11-20_audio
• Repository
  • Western Carolina University Hunter Library