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Vimala Aldus Crispin 1 Vimala Aldus Crispin Interview Interviewee: Vimala Aldus Crispin Interviewer: Anna Morgan Interview Location: Sylva, NC Interview Date: May, 2019 Interview Length: 54:40 START INTERVIEW Anna Morgan: Okay. So, will you please state your name? Vimala Aldus Crispin: Okay. My name is Vimala Aldus Crispin and my name growing up is Vimala Aldus, but then my married name is Crispin. AM: Okay. And you consent to this conversation being recorded? VC: Yes. AM: And so, yeah, are you aware it’s being recorded? VC: I am. AM: I just asked it backwards. All right. And thank you for taking your time to talk. So, first question, when were you born, what date? VC: June 13th, 1976. AM: That’s my friend’s birthday. VC: Oh, really? AM: Okay. Where were you born? VC: I was born in Johor Bahru, Malaysia. AM: So, what was your timeline for living there, when did you move to the US? VC: Hmm-hmm. My father is American and my mother is Malaysian. They met in Baltimore. My father was working as a doctor and my mom is a nurse, they worked in a hospital there. And then my dad started working in an international public health program in Bangladesh, but Bangladesh at that time in the ‘70s, well, still now, isn’t the cleanest or safest place to have small children. So, my mom decided to go back to Malaysia to give birth to me. So, I was born in Malaysia and then we lived in Bangladesh for two years while my dad ran a rural public health Vimala Aldus Crispin 2 program there. And then after two years, he decided to move, they decided to move back to America, and he and a group of doctors that he knew from, I think from medical school were looking for places where they could start kind of a rural public health program but in America, and I think they were actually, there was someone taking them around and they were trying to take them to Waynesville or Franklin, and they were driving by the highway and they looked down and I think they saw the courthouse and they were like, “What’s that place?” And she’s like, “Oh, you don’t want to go there. It’s so tiny,” and they’re like, “No, no.” AM: That’s kind of the point. VC: “We want to check it out.” That’s the point, exactly. And so she took them down, and they kind of fell in love with it immediately, and I think they met some of the doctors who were here at the time, and there was a doctor named Dr. Seal and I think my dad took over his practice. We moved into his house on Mitchell Road, near the hospital, and they set up the Sylva Medical Center, which is that building right below the hospital, and, yeah. So that was in 1978. AM: You’re still very little? VC: I was still very little. I was 2. Yeah. So that’s kind of my whole memory is growing up here, yeah. AM: So, backtracking a little bit. Did your family have a little bit more reason for moving here or was it because of you that they decided to move from Bangladesh back to America? VC: I’m not really sure. I think they did want to move. I think living in Bangladesh is pretty tough and they’d wanted to move back to the states, and then, yeah. I’m not sure why they picked this out, but I know they wanted to live in the mountains and then, yeah, they just discovered Sylva, so it all worked out. AM: Let’s see. Do you have any siblings? VC: Yes. I have two younger brothers. So, my second brother was born at CJ Harris here in 1978, so right after we moved, and then I have a much younger brother who was born, well, when I was 11. AM: So, you moved here and then you lived here your whole life or until you went to college? VC: Until I went to high school. So, I went to Fairview until 8th grade and then I went to boarding school in India. So, an international boarding school for high school, yeah, in northern India. AM: Was there a reason, like why? VC: Yeah. I think that my parents were a little worried because back then, like in the ‘80s, especially, Sylva was much less cosmopolitan, I would say, and open than it is now. This was very kind of closed place, like in terms of people’s views and people’s politics and, you know, it Vimala Aldus Crispin 3 was good in a lot of ways, you know, it was a great place to grow up, but I think they were a little kind of worried that I was becoming… AM: Yeah. They want more global setting. VC: A little more, yeah, you know, and like honestly, like in my class, like everyone’s dream was like to be on the football team or be the best cheerleader or, you know, and they’re like there’s more to it than that, you know. And also, my grandmother, so my dad, who is American, my grandmother went to this boarding school in India, so it was an international boarding school, and so I had a family history there, and it was kids from all over the world, and it was a really cool experience. AM: So, I think I’ve met a couple of people who’ve gone to international schools. Did everyone speak English there? At least with the ones that I heard of, it’s like no matter where it is, you know, English is like kind of ambassador’s children and that kind of people one of those international schools? VC: Yeah, kind of like that. I mean, there were some kids who like really struggled with English because I spent a lot of time helping people with their essay. It was an advantage to be a native English speaker, definitely for school. AM: But this school was basically VC: All English. AM: it wasn’t like, yeah. VC: Yeah. Completely. And most of the teachers were American. A lot of the kids were American, but also it was really cool, it was really cool coming from here to meet kids from all over the world because that was really new, except for my mom, it was a really new experience for me, to have meet people. AM: Before that, have you ever visited, like did your mom still have family back in Malaysia? VC: Yeah. So, we would go every like three or four years for the summer, like all summer, and so I had that experience, but I don’t know, somehow it was different. It just seemed, and the other thing that was really interesting going there is I used to have a really, really thick southern accent, like. AM: Funny? VC: Like the thickest, and people really couldn’t understand me. I’d be like, “Hi. My name is Vimala,” and they were like, “Are you speaking English?” And I had no idea that we sounded that way to other people. It was really an interesting experience to realize like you did grow up in this little Sylva bubble, you know, stuff. Vimala Aldus Crispin 4 AM: Oh, dear. I just totally forgot my question. Oh, yeah. So, you said your parents met in Baltimore? VC: Yeah. AM: But what made your mother move to America and be a nurse? VC: Yeah. So, she was growing up in Malaysia, one of the eldest of six kids, and they were Hindu, and in that culture, you kind of have to get married in order, and she was getting a little bit older, and, well, older for them is like 21, and they were like, “You have to get married.” Her younger sister wanted to get married and they were like, “Look, we’re organizing an arranged marriage for you,” which means like you meet the guy at your wedding, and she was like, “Oh, heck, no. I’m not doing this,” but she didn’t know what to do, and at that time, they were recruiting nurses actually in England because there was a shortage of nurses, they were recruiting in Malaysia, Indonesia, all these countries, and said, “If you will work in our country for like five years as a nurse, we’ll pay for your flight and we’ll fly you over and we’ll train you as a nurse.” AM: Wow. VC: “But you’ve got to agree to work in our health system.” So, it was a huge risk and like, you know, adventure for her, her parents were furious, but she did it, and she ended up really loving nursing, so it worked out, and then she ended up moving from there to here. AM: So what was it like, we’re kind of skipping around, I apologize. VC: Yeah. That’s okay. AM: So, you went here in Jackson County, a small town, to Fairview until 8th grade and then you told me you went to India. Were you excited or, I mean, I would think you were excited, but how nervous and like… VC: Yeah. AM: -- what were your thoughts on that? Was it something that you looked into and you wanted to do or your parents kind of started it, like. VC: Yeah. My parents were really smart about it. My dad said he had like a meeting in India, I think he did have some, it was during spring break, during spring break. AM: Did the idea, sorry, did the idea just start when you were in 8th grade? VC: I think they were already starting to think about it. AM: Kind of planning on it? VC: Yeah. And I was looking at two schools, actually, one in Massachusetts, I’m like more of a Vimala Aldus Crispin 5 traditional like boarding school American one, and then there was the one in India, and initially, I thought, “No way.” And then we went over there, my dad and I, because he had these meetings and, “Well, come with me and you can check it out.” We went up to the school and then I got to meet a lot of the kids and then they had like a camping trip or something and they were like, “Come with us to the camping trip,” and you know how it is, like you meet them and you’re like, “Oh, they’re cool, they’re great.” They’re like, “You’ve got to come back.” And so that kind of solidified it for me. I knew I had friends there and it was going to be okay. AM: That’s really interesting. VC: Yeah. But I remember being really nervous about it because it just seems so different, and a lot of the kids in my class like in Fairview, like, “You’re going to have to live in a tree, you know, in India, and you’re going to have to ride an elephant to school.” And I’m like, “Oh, no. Is that true?” So, it was really good to go there and kind of, you know, because people have these myths or misunderstandings about different parts of the world, you know, and so did I, so it was really important to see it in person, you know and stuff like that. AM: What was it like in India, like were you in a pretty wealthy area or, because I know they have a lot of pollution problems, especially now. VC: Yeah. It’s really rough actually. AM: Like what was it? VC: We were actually, this school was started over 150 years ago by medical missionaries. That’s why my grandmother was there. So, Americans, Brits who were going there to do like missionary work basically. And so, but because of the reasons you just described, they wouldn’t often keep their kids with them where they’re doing the missionary work because it was hot, it was dirty, there was a lot of disease, so they set up these schools in the mountains, so in the Himalayas where it was cool and it was, and they could keep them kind of safer, and so that’s where the school was. So, to me, it didn’t feel that much different from here in a lot of ways and they really did keep us quite safe and contained. It was always a bit of a shock when you leave the little town and come all the way. AM: Would you guys take like, I guess, field trips, per se, or? VC: We would, yeah. We’d go around, we had like activities where we could go all over the place, and you had to fly through Delhi, so that was like a big city. AM: Oh, wow. VC: And you’d have that experience, but we were kind of removed from it, and I think that is a good thing. AM: Did you have a favorite part of your experience, were they like people or just like getting to see another place or? Vimala Aldus Crispin 6 VC: I think that was it, yeah. It was just kind of like being exposed to a whole different culture and world because I, you know, in Sylva, it was, especially back then, because things have changed so much, you know, in the ‘80s, like it was pretty small here, you know, in terms of culture and people, and you didn’t meet a lot of diversity or anything like that. So that was really cool, yeah. AM: Speaking of diversity, like so when your mom and dad moved here, like how was she able to maintain her heritage and stuff like that? VC: Yeah. AM: What was that like for her, did you know? VC: She really worked at it, I think, and she tried it in a lot of different ways. Like for example, she spoke to us in her language, which was Tamil, it’s a South Indian language. AM: Oh, I think I heard of that, maybe it’s something else, is that the one where... I don’t know what, maybe, or is that something totally different? VC: Tamil? AM: Yeah. VC: Yeah. AM: Is that the same thing? VC: Maybe. AM: Because my friend tried to get me to pronounce it correctly. VC: Uh-huh. And where were they from? AM: I think south India. VC: They probably use that. AM: She would talk about her Tamil pride or I can’t say it. VC: Tamil pride. It probably is because it’s a very strong culture, and in Sri Lanka, they’ve really pushed back against the government and they’ve had a lot of trouble, and so, yes, she would try to speak, she would almost explicitly speak to my brothers and I in this language, but because we were growing up in America, we didn’t want to speak that weird language because we wanted to be just like everybody else. So, we grew up in this very weird way where I could understand everything fluently in that language, like I think I’m hearing English, but I can barely say Vimala Aldus Crispin 7 anything because I never did, and it’s one of those languages that’s like, it’s like impossible to pronounce. So, I can say things like, “Go take a bath,” or, “Do your homework,” or, you know, the important stuff, but I can’t converse in it, and I wish now that I’d done that, but I’m glad that she at least made an effort, but I remember people coming to our house and they’d be like, “Why is your mom talking like that?” Back then, we didn’t even have people speak in Spanish here, right? AM: Yeah. VC: You know, it’s a big change. And she used to go to the Methodist church because she was Hindu because there was no Hindu temple, so she would wear her sari, and people would be like, “What are you wearing,” or, “Is that a bed sheet,” you know, but she would, you know, and she would cook her food as much as she can and try her best to keep with the culture. AM: Did your dad speak Tamil or? VC: No. He could say, “Hospital,” which is where he worked and that was about it. AM: Important? VC: Yeah. AM: What are your parents’ names, just for reference? VC: Hmm-hmm. My dad is William, Dr. William Aldus. And my mother’s name is Rami, R-A-M-I. AM: Let’s see. Let me make sure I have it. Oh. Did you have any particular traditions tied to Malaysia? Like your mother could cook and speak and that kind of stuff, or did you have any particular, I don’t know, not necessarily like a Hindu one, but if there were any other? VC: Yeah. What did she do? I mean we do, like this isn’t a Hindu thing. On Friday, because their holy day is Friday instead of Sunday, and they believe that on Fridays, you need to kind of clean your house of all the bad spirits. So she used to light these, I don’t even know what it was, like it was like this charcoal stuff, and she’d put it in a pan, and she’d walk through the house with this like smoking thing, and my brother and I would be like, “Oh, the house is on fire. Hit the floor,” you know. We would make a big deal of it, but it was important to her to do that, you know, and at the time, it seemed kind of odd, but now, you can see like that was her trying to keep her tradition, you know. AM: Did your siblings also go to boarding schools? VC: They did. AM: Did they stay here until high school? Vimala Aldus Crispin 8 VC: Each of us went a little bit earlier. So, then my brother, Rogan went when he was in seventh grade, and then by the time my littlest brother, so by the time I was in about 10th grade, so that was in like ‘92 or 3, my father actually started working internationally again. So, we kept our house here, but he went to work, I think he started in Nigeria, for the World Health Organization, and then they subsequently moved all over the place, like Nigeria, Malawi, Bangladesh, and my mom worked as a nurse in the US Embassy in all these different places. So, they would come back here for holidays, but they lived abroad, yeah. AM: Let’s see. So after you went to your boarding school in India, then I gather you went to Columbia or Barnard. VC: Hmm-hmm, yeah. AM: Well, first of all, just some clarification. So Barnard is attached to Columbia? VC: It’s part of Columbia. So there’s Columbia University, and then within Columbia University, there are a number of different colleges. So there’s Columbia College which is co-ed. There’s Barnard College which is all girls. It’s one of the few kinds of Ivy League all-girls schools left. And then there’s like teacher’s college. There’s different, within Columbia University, there’s many, yeah. AM: Okay. So you did go to Barnard, is that correct? VC: Yeah. I went to Barnard College within Columbia University, yeah. AM: Okay. And could you just compare your different schools? So you had your rural school here, Fairview, Jackson County. VC: Hmm-hmm. AM: And then you went to India. VC: Hmm-hmm. AM: But that was VC: Pretty rural. AM: A little bit similar to here. VC: Yeah. AM: And then you went to New York. VC: New York. Vimala Aldus Crispin 9 AM: Like what was the VC: It was AM: What are some of the biggest differences between all three of those or maybe just between two of them? VC: Yeah. It was crazy. I mean but I really, I remember sitting there in India, in this little town and looking at the course catalog and had gotten into Chapel Hill as well and talked to my dad, “Which one you should go, should I go to?” He said, “Well, you know, whatever you think is best.” I’m like, “I want to go to New York City,” because it just seems so foreign and so exotic to me, and I loved it, but it was mind-blowing because I never lived in a city like that. New York is particularly overwhelming at first, but yeah, just the, it’s so dynamic and exciting. There’s so many different cultures and things to do in any time of the day or night. So, it was really fun. I had a big learning curve too like in terms of like safety and a lot of things like that which is, you know, I don’t really think about here, you know. You don’t lock your doors. You don’t, you know, generally do a lot of stuff like that, but yeah, I really loved it. AM: Oh, my goodness, if I could just remember my question. VC: It’s hard to keep the train of thought, especially when I’m all over the place in my answers. So, I’m not helping you out. AM: So you considered Chapel Hill and Columbia. Were there any other schools that you liked a lot? VC: I think I looked at Bard which is in upstate New York. That one seemed interesting. It was kind of weird to be looking at colleges from India. I think we had a skewed perspective of it, and I don’t know how you guys, right now, I think I missed the deadline on the SATs. So, I did the ACTs, and I had to do rolling admissions. So that kind of like narrowed the places that I could go to. Okay, but I think that was, it worked out to be fine but, and that was back in the day when there was no like internet applications. So, you actually had to put it in the post, and it was from India. So, you weren’t sure if it actually got there or what was going to happen. AM: So also, you majored in political science? VC: Hmm-hmm. AM: Did you go there, planning on that, or you just picked it as you’re there? VC: Hmm-hmm. I had no idea what I wanted to do, and that’s the good thing about like undergrad. I think if you’re doing like liberal arts, you can have some time to figure it out which is really nice. I feel like, I don’t know if you know exactly what you want to do yet, but I felt like at 18 I have no idea, you know, and trying to figure out what I’d be interested in. So political science kind of worked because I was interested in, you know, learning about the way different countries worked and that kind of thing, but I still wasn’t sure. I remember by the time I was a Vimala Aldus Crispin 10 senior, I still wasn’t sure like what my passion was like in terms of like what do I, what would I really want to do with my life, and I wasn’t sure that political science was it, but it kind of was something that I could graduate in, to be honest, at that point. AM: And so from Columbia, you went to Johns Hopkins for your master’s. VC: Hmm-hmm. AM: And then I know that you got your international relations and economics degree. VC: Yeah. AM: Did you go there with that in mind? Well, I guess you probably did, it’s your specialty. VC: Well, it was interesting because I kind of had this, I wasn’t very well prepared in, well. So it got to the end of senior year, and I was like, “Oh, God, I’ve got to get a job.” Like I hadn’t even like, I don’t know what planet I was living on that I was just la li da, enjoying my liberal arts education, and then I was like, “Oh, my goodness.” I hadn’t, I really hadn’t thought ahead. And so I ran into the career center, I was flipping through the binders, it was still binders back then, and I said, “What do I want to do? What am I going to do? I’m not sure.” And I found a job with something called the Institute for Children and Poverty and a place called Homes for the Homeless. It was two organizations kind of combined. I was like, “This looks really interesting,” and it was in New York, but I had run out of money and my dorm, they’re kicking me out of the dorm. So, I came back to Sylva. I did my application and submitted it, and then I had a phone interview from here, and then they called me back, and they said, “You got … And they offered me the job, and I remember I was so excited because they said, “You’re going to make $22,000 a year,” and I was like, “Yes.” Thinking back on it, like that was just, I can’t believe I was that excited about that which, it was great. It wasn’t very much to live off in New York, but I was really lucky because that job was where I figured out what I was passionate about and what I cared about which is working with kids and disadvantaged kids because we ran shelters for homeless families which is moms and kids and worked on getting them back into school, worked on, you know, all the different things that they needed while they were homeless and living in shelter. And to me, that was kind of like, oh this, it was kind of my light bulb, you know, like, “This is what I love to do.” But I also felt like I wanted to do that internationally. And so when I was an undergrad, when I was at Columbia, I also did a college year abroad program in Thailand. AM: Cool. VC: Yeah, in my senior year, and I was like, “I would love to live in Thailand.” Just the culture, I studied the language. So, I was like, “If I could figure out a way to combine these things somehow, I would love it,” but I wasn’t sure how to do it. So, I worked at the Institute for Children and Poverty in New York for two years, and then I started applying for grad school. So, when I was looking at grad schools, I was looking for grad schools that had a Southeast Asian Studies department because a lot of schools have South Asia, like India, you know, Bangladesh, and all that, or they had East Asia, China, Japan, and Korea, but Southeast Asia is kind of a gap. And so there was Johns Hopkins. There was Cornell. I think there was one in California, but Vimala Aldus Crispin 11 that’s kind of how I decided where I wanted to go because they had a Thai Studies program. AM: Interesting. VC: Yeah. AM: Well, I guess this brings me to my next question. So you now work for Child Frontiers? VC: Yes. AM: So let’s see, what, I guess it sounds like that is the perfect combination of what you wanted. What led you to the company? VC: Child Frontiers works in child protection, and we do research. We do technical assistance to governments. We train social workers, frontline workers. What else do we do? Yeah, we try to come up with, my title there is head of knowledge management and innovation. So apart from being a researcher, I also try to look at what we’re learning about child protection in different countries and different places and say, “What can we learn from this in terms of doing a better job to help families or help kids that experience abuse, violence, neglect?” And it’s always really interesting being American and working in all these different countries because they’re always like, “Tell us about America,” and, “How was it working there?” And I’m like, you know—because as you know, our foster care system is pretty messed up, and I was like, “Well, I think what you can learn from America is what not to do in a lot of ways,” you know. I mean you can learn some good things. There’s a lot of great social workers, but I think working in countries where there really isn’t any kind of system is also an advantage because they can make you try to start something that… AM: Yeah. You’re kinda changing and you don’t have to. VC: Exactly. AM: Like all the mess. VC: Yeah. And they have like different cultures because they have like families, and they look after each other whereas here, people don’t have that kind of support structure anymore. So yeah, that’s why I wanted to work for Child Frontiers, and I also like the independence of it because we were, we don’t have an office. Our team is all over the world. We kind of work online. We meet up to do research in countries, or we talk online, but I like that aspect of it as well. AM: How did you learn about the company specifically? VC: Well, before working for Child Frontiers, I worked for an NGO called ECPAT which is… AM: ECPAT? VC: ECPAT, E-C-P-A-T which stands for End Child Prostitution and Trafficking. So it was Vimala Aldus Crispin 12 working on a very specific area of child protection, so children that are involved in prostitution, pornography, trafficking, there’s one more, those types of very specific issues, and I ran an anti-child trafficking project in India, Bangladesh, and Nepal. So we worked with girls who had been trafficked into brothels and been rescued from the brothels. So we worked on re-integrating them. We worked on helping them do advocacy to the government. So, you know, because a lot of them said, “The thing that I really want to do is make sure this doesn’t happen to anybody else.” And so that, it was very kind of empowering for them. So I worked there for five years, and several of the people that I worked with there went to work for Child Frontiers, and one of them is the one that started Child Frontiers. He’s the director. So we were still in touch, and then he was like, “Come and work for us here.” So that’s how it kind of worked out. AM: Let’s see. So you were, you said Child Frontiers is all over the world, and it is a company, right? VC: Yeah. AM: At first, I thought it was a non-profit, and then I realized that’s not. You work with other agencies or governments to help figure out their systems. VC: Yeah. We are a company, and we decided that deliberately because we wanted to like hold ourselves to a higher standard. Sometimes, and this isn’t true with all NGOs by any means, but sometimes they’re like, “Oh, you’re doing good. So just do your best,” and actually, no. I mean why do businesses hold themselves to certain standards? We can, if you’re working with families and kids, you should almost hold yourself to even higher standards, right? AM: That’s right. VC: Really do, not just an average job, but do the best you can. So we kind of tried to keep it very professional in that way. So that’s why it’s a company. We usually work with NGOs, like Save the Children or World Vision. You’ve heard of them? AM: Yeah, I heard. VC: Yeah. But mostly with UNICEF. So UNICEF will hire us to do a piece of research or to work with a government in a specific country, and then yeah, they’ll bring us in, and they’ll be our client, but then we’ll work with people in the country. So that’s how it usually works, yeah. AM: Let’s see. So your specific job, you said research and innovation...head something? VC: Yeah, head of knowledge management and innovation, yeah. It’s a long, mouthful, and I’m not sure I do it all the time. It sounds a lot better than it is probably. We created, the directors of the company, created this position because we really wanted to not just to be another consulting company where you just take contracts and do the work, get paid and move on to the next, but because of what we’re doing, that it’s really important that we try to take a step back and figure out like, “What are we learning from this?” Like was this a disaster, this project or did we figure out something that could actually help kids and families in a new way? And if so, we need to Vimala Aldus Crispin 13 document it and share it with others because we have a unique opportunity to go and talk to them and be in this crazy places and talk, like you talk to village chiefs in Africa, you know, and they share their own views with me. And so, if we’re learning something from that, we shouldn’t just like put it in a report and file it away. We should try to like collect it all and feed it back to everybody who is working in this field. I wish I could say that we did a better job of that because when you’re doing contracts, you do get kind of caught up in just getting the work done, but that’s kind of the idea of what I’m supposed to be doing. I’m supposed to spend like 50% of my time on that and the rest of the time, I’m actually doing the research, doing technical assistance. AM: Doing your actual research, could you talk what those processes or maybe you fly out to whatever location, and then you just interview people mostly or what do you do? VC: We, well, it depends on what the research is about. A lot of times our research is on the child protection system in a different country, in a certain country. So, we just did Southern Laos, for example, and what you’re trying to understand is that is there a child protection system? Like, are there any, like here, we have, you know, you have social workers, and if someone is found to be treating their child badly, the social worker will go to the house and there’ll be a case, and the child will be taken away. There’s a system in place, right, or if you’re a kid and you need help, you can probably go to your teacher and ask for help or your counselor, but a lot of these countries, there is nothing like that and even when it’s something very serious, like a case of rape, there’s still not a lot that can be done. So, we try to figure out what the government thinks they’ve set in place, how well is it functioning, do communities even use it, are they aware of it, you know, and then ideally on that basis makes some recommendations for how they could do, how they could strengthen it based on what families and communities tell us. So to do that, we use a number of different tools. It’s called mixed methods research which I’m sure it’s kind of like what you’re doing. You’re doing an interview, you probably, you do some research of review of documents and you kind of triangulate different things. So we do a literature review. We’ll do interviews at the community level with like groups of girls, groups of boys, moms, dads, village leaders, social workers if there are any. We’ll interview people like the government level and then some will do surveys, like online surveys if they have them or like on their phones. And then, we try to like triangulate all that information and try to get it to tell us a story about the system. AM: When you do something like that, you go by yourself, like wherever you go and interview and stuff like that? VC: No. Well, usually what we do is we hire national researchers who we train. So we usually spend a day or two training them on ethical standards, you know, because we’re working with kids, especially when you’re working with kids and talking about these topics, almost every single time a kid is going to tell you about, some kid is going to tell you about something is going on with them right now, and you have an ethical responsibility to do something about it, report it, so they have to know how to handle, or someone will break into tears or, you know, you have all these kinds of issues. So, you have to train them. Train them on how to do the interviews, how to document the interviews, but we find it’s much better to work with local researchers because, like with me in a place like Laos or Thailand, I don’t look so different than the people there. So, it doesn’t freak them out too much. But if you bring in like an average Vimala Aldus Crispin 14 American guy, you know, into this village, a lot of times it’s very uncomfortable for them. They won’t talk. They get scared. AM: Yeah. That makes sense. VC: Yeah. So, we find it’s better to use like local researchers, and then you also get to train them and build their capacity as well, so that’s what we usually do, and then usually it will be maybe two people from my team come in and we’ll have two groups of researchers about four or five people and they will go to different parts of the country and collect data for about 10 days. AM: What are some of the biggest challenges that you’ve faced in your work? If anything, comes to mind. VC: Yeah. I think for me personally one of the biggest challenges has been sometimes hearing about stories, like in Thailand I was, you know, doing research and having children come up to you and telling you pretty horrible things, maybe that are happening to them right now, you know, that they’ll say, you know, my neighbor is doing this to me and I’ve gone to the village chief, I’ve gone to everybody, she’s eight, and not being able to do anything. Like, I would go to the village chief and I would report it back to UNICEF and I would report it back to New York and everywhere, and having nothing still be done about it. AM: Yeah. VC: And that just kills you because you feel like she trusted you to tell you that and you didn’t do anything about it, you know, and these are the kind of stories that just stick with you for years and you just wonder if she is okay, or what you could have done, and I had a big talk about it in my company and, well what could you have done? what did you want to take her to live with you, like that’s not the solution, but at the same time you feel like you have an obligation in a way. So, I think that was the hardest thing. AM: Is there anything you’re particularly proud of? This is your chance to brag, a particular, I really can’t even give examples, I don’t know. Anything that you’ve done like, well, I’m really happy that I was able to do that. VC: I think the coolest thing that we do about, in our research is often going back to people in the government at the highest levels and explaining to them the situation of people almost in their own country that living in poverty in the village and then they say, if you talk to government, oh, we have this and we have this, we have this. But if you go in the village, and I say if you have a problem who is there to help you, and they said nobody. There is no help for us. And so, being able to take that information back is like, so we need to kind of solve this or be able to be kind of their voice, and I think it’s sad in a way that you have to have someone come from another country and do research to do that, but to be able to be that voice sometimes is nice. AM: Well, obviously, it’s a problem across the whole world, trafficking, human trafficking, but have you been able to notice any changes over time maybe from the time you started to now and, if so, did the changes give you hope or more concern? Vimala Aldus Crispin 15 VC: I think trafficking the way it used to happen has definitely decreased or we don’t even know if it really happens as much as… AM: I know it’s maybe not just trafficking, just all the stuff. VC: Child protection issues. AM: Yeah, just child protection. VC: Yeah. I think there’s definitely greater awareness of it around the world, like I think if people, you saw someone just like going up and like smacking kid, I think a lot of people would react. It was maybe 20 years ago, people would be like it’s not my business as much. I think there’s a real shift not just in America but everywhere where people kind of react, but what I worry about is I think a lot of stuff has gotten underneath the table, and even here in America, I think, if you don’t see girls prostituting themselves visibly, but it’s a huge problem, but what’s happened is it’s gone all online and it’s all on the phones or apps. And so, what’s scary is I feel like there’s a danger that these problems are getting much bigger and affecting many, many more girls and young people and boys and people of all ages especially with the financial challenges everyone is facing, it can be so easy to slip into that and then it’s a slippery slope. AM: Yeah. VC: But we have no idea and I think it can be really isolating for them, too, because no one knows it’s happening, and that’s happening all over the world even in places where there is no electricity in little villages, people have phones sometimes and the adults have no idea what the kids are doing. So, that makes me more worried. AM: With stuff like that is that something you wished you could just tell everyone, like everyone, environmentally, just needs to save the earth? Like is there anything that you wish you could say to everyone just kind of like, maybe, I don’t know, just be aware or something. VC: Yeah. I think the main thing for kids is to try to make sure kids especially girls have other choices. No one chooses to do these types of things, but a lot of times you end up in it because of financial issues and if they have the chance to go to school or be something else, that’s so important and have that strength and confidence in themselves, but in so many places, girls just don’t have that opportunity and they’re kind of used up in the worse possible way. So, really kind of investing and creating, keeping girls in school as long as possible because most of these countries these girls don’t stay in school past 13. Like even that is amazing. We found that’s the biggest factor preventing child marriage, preventing a lot of these issues if you can just keep girls in school longer. It gives them confidence. It gives them, it keeps them safe, you know. It’s a simple thing. AM: So those kind of stuff for the girls or maybe not themselves, but is there something that people may be here in America could do to help stop these problems? Those kind of the same type of question, but is there anything maybe that? Vimala Aldus Crispin 16 VC: Well, I think what’s really worrisome about America is I feel like America almost has problems of trafficking, of child prostitution, of all the issues almost bigger than in a lot of the country that we think of them traditionally because in America it’s so underground. We don’t see it, but it’s happening in truck stops, it’s happening online, it’s happening in all different places, but we’re not seeing it because it’s not visible anymore, and I think what would be, and because of the way the economy now is and so many people are struggling. AM: Yeah. I guess it’s just a wide variety of lives, walks of life, rather than the third world countries where they really have a lot of struggles everywhere, here, probably more all around. VC: Yeah. And people aren’t, everyone has just kind of dealt, they’re kind of focused on themselves and their own lives and their own family. So people aren’t really, and that it’s kind of like well, that’s their business, I’m not going to like pry, and that’s a good thing in a way, but there’s not a sense of like community or helping each other out or, I think there is, you know, someone like Sylva to a certain degree, but I think that’s changing in a lot of ways as well. And so, you know, what could we do to try to topple here and help. I’m not sure because it’s really important. AM: And so, I just want to talk about Thailand some, itself. VC: Yeah. AM: So, you’re currently in Bangkok, Thailand. VC: Hmm-hmm. AM: And with your whole time with Child Frontiers have you been there? VC: Yes. AM: And that’s because, like did you kind of get to choose where to go? VC: Well, I, when I finished at Johns Hopkins, I got a job with something called the Kenan Institute and basically I knew I wanted to go back to Thailand so I took this job, but it was kind of a development job that was kind of working with small businesses in Thailand, Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam, helping them try to figure out how do we kind of engage with the economy which wasn’t quite my thing, but I wanted to be back over there and I like what Kenan represented, and Kenan was supported by USAID, US government, so they hired Americans as well, so that’s how I got back to Thailand. I did that for about a year or two, and then I moved to start working for ECPAT. ECPAT was an NGO-based its headquarters were in Bangkok. So, I was kind of already there. And then within Child Frontiers, yeah, you can work, you can be wherever you want and that’s just where I was, and I also met my husband there in Bangkok, although he is from Ohio and he is a journalist in Thailand and he’d already been there for like five to seven years. Vimala Aldus Crispin 17 AM: Does he speak Thai, I guess? VC: Yeah. AM: And you’re also fluent in Thai? VC: Yeah. AM: You said you studied it. Is that, yeah, okay, and you said you just, did you pretty much become fluent while you were at Columbia? VC: I studied it. Yeah, I did an exchange program. In a way it was, it was actually at University of Wisconsin-Madison for some reason. So, we went there. I did like intensive for the summer and it was with three other kids, students and then we went to Thailand, to Chiang Mai, to a university there, but they put us with Thai families who didn’t speak a word of English. So, it was crazy, like you have to just figure it out. Like, at first, I was doing things... like eat, or I need to shower, but it was cool because they also are so sweet. Like Thai culture is very like, it actually in the north of Thailand it reminds me of the South here a lot. People, they speak really slow, they’re really welcoming. They’re not aggressive. And it’s a great place to learn the language because they’re so encouraging of you. They’re like, you’re so smart, you’re so good. And now I look back on it, and I’m like, oh my God, I was butchering their language, I got so much, I thought it was great, you know so it gave you a lot of confidence to speak it. And it’s not a really hard language either grammatically. So you can pick it up pretty quick. It was a great way to kind of just be thrown into it and then learn it and then it makes the quality of life in Thailand a lot better to be able to speak the language obviously. AM: That’s a good advertising for Thailand. I’m like, oh, you know I should go to Thailand. VC: You should. AM: I should learn it, like yeah, it would be cool. VC: It’s so much fun. It’s a great place to like do exchange programs and there’s Chiang Mai is a beautiful, it’s like being in the mountains. It’s actually, my dad lives there now. And so many times we’re driving to the mountains in Chiang Mai, it just looks just like western North Carolina. There are so many parallels. AM: Do you have a typical day of work or is it kind of just whatever the world throws at you and you’ll do a lot of different stuff? VC: Kind of. I mean, yeah, I mean it depends on what I’m, I might be working on a report that day. I may be doing interviews online, uh, maybe having a call. You know, when I’m sitting in my desk in my house, um, and yeah, in front of my computer and then we use something called FLAX, so our team is all kind of online and we can chat with each other and we have channels so we do that. But often it’s not like nine to five. Because our team is all over the world. So, I actually because I’m one of the first, so Thailand is 12 hours ahead, so we start the day. And then Vimala Aldus Crispin 18 slowly people will start coming online. I’m like, hi, I’ve been working for six hours already. So now, I’m actually working, I was just working this morning, working from here. It’s really weird for me because I’m 12 hours, they’re already in tomorrow. You know it’s like you always feel like you’re behind, it’s really surreal. But often you’ll have to do calls late at night, at like 8 p.m. or 9 p.m. just to catch everybody on the spectrum so we do that kind of thing. But yeah, it’s pretty much how it is. Apart from when I’m doing the research and then I have to go to these different countries and have meetings with government or do the field work that’s needed. AM: And so in those meetings, and more on languages, is it pretty much all English? VC: No, we… AM: Do you have a translator or something? VC: Yeah. AM: Okay. VC: We actually always try to do it in their language. AM: Oh, really? VC: Often, they speak English, but they like to hear it twice. So, they all understand what I’m saying the first time I say it. Although because, I think Americans we speak faster than other people, so sometimes they have a hard time understanding we say. But I’ll say it and the translator will translate it in their language, but they get to hear it twice and really think about what they want to say, I think they like that. But we always almost try to have a translator. And yeah, the big meeting they’ll do the simultaneous translations, so people will have headphones on and they’ll, or if it’s just one on one they’ll just translate as you go, which is really important. AM: Let’s see. So, we’re talking about the Thai culture, is there anything, what’s the biggest, what have been some big surprises for you maybe with other culture or you said that was a surprise, what surprised you when you are over there? VC: Yeah. I think I wasn’t sure what to expect. But one of the things that surprise me and I’ve really appreciate it, another thing I really appreciated about Thai culture is they love kids there. And they’re actually very open to people. And so I have two sons and they were both born there and they grew up there. And I wouldn’t say it about Sylva, but other places in America people aren’t that, like if you had a kid on the plane or in a restaurant, people get kind of annoyed with you or you know because your kid is going to spill something, or break something, or cry. But in Thailand, people like if you get on the sky train or you get on, people are just so welcoming, complete strangers, you know let them sit in their laps or give them a cookie, or hug them, and they’re so used to that. But when they come back to America and they see people or one mom even looking at them or saying hi, they’re like why, what did I do wrong? Like why are they angry at me? I’m like they’re not, it’s just American culture also teaches about stranger danger, right? We all teach our kids that. But over there, it’s not. It’s kind of like, it’s kind of like, it’s my Vimala Aldus Crispin 19 responsibility to keep them safe. They can trust people. I mean they know not to go away with a stranger, but you don’t have to be suspicious or scared of everybody that you meet. And so it’s just kind of a different approach culturally and I really like that about it over there. AM: Well, we can’t have a whole conversation and not talk about food. So, what is the food like over there, and do you really like it compared to, I guess, the normal food? VC: Yeah. I mean, there’s some things we miss here. Like I think we miss like berries. You can’t really get, they’re really expensive there, because I think it’s too hot. But you get everything else, you know and the food is amazing. It’s really, really good. It’s super healthy, it’s fresh. It’s really cheap. You get very spoiled there in terms of food. And it’s almost like cheaper to eat out all the time than to eat at home because there’s just so much of it. It’s a very food culture. They’re very food centric people. They’re always eating. It just fits with my, you know, even in the office everyone has snacks all the time and they’re really, you know, no one is overweight really, but I don’t know how it’s possible, but they, they love food. Yeah, they take it very seriously. AM: Oh, I’m very sold with all this talk. VC: You need to go, yeah. AM: What’s the, just kind of curiosity, what’s the transportation like there, do you go on biking, do or still a car, trains? VC: They have everything. In Bangkok, it’s a big, it’s a really big city, so there’s a sky train, so it kind of goes, it’s like a subway, but it’s above the air. So that can, because traffic is really bad. Taxis are like, over here you don’t really take a taxi because it’s so expensive, but there taxis are really cheap and they’re everywhere. You take a motorcycle taxi a lot, so there’s like a dude like on the corner and they wear little jackets and you just jump on the back and he’ll zoom you from place to place which is probably not very safe, but it’s a lot of fun. And they zoom you like right through the traffic so they kind of go through the traffic, which is fun. Yeah, it’s super easy to get around. It’s super safe, I think the other nice thing, compared to somewhere like India or other places like as a woman to be there. AM: Yeah. VC: It’s, you don’t have to worry about a thing which is really nice. And they’re not that many places left in the world that are like that, I think. And that’s why, well, I’m saying Sylva in a lot of ways where you never have to really worry about being in danger, knock on wood, I hope it stays that way. But yeah, it’s lovely that way. You should go. AM: And then so whenever you come back home, also, what are the particular differences that you notice going back to the mountains themselves, things that you, changes that you notice in the area itself. VC: Hmm-hmm. Huge, yeah. I think most of the changes though are rather good, for the better. It seems like Sylva has really kind of come alive. There’s a lot more diversity. There’s a lot more Vimala Aldus Crispin 20 things to do. I mean like when I was in the ‘80s like growing up here, there wasn’t anywhere to go out to eat. You never did. Like there wasn’t innovations or there wasn’t, you know, all the different things on Main Street, really. People just didn’t really do that, maybe it’s a different era. And it was just, it just seems much more alive here, you know, they have concerts on the creek and there was like different things going on. So that’s really nice to see that Sylva is kind of thriving and every time you come back there’s a new thing or a new change, you know, whereas you know I know some towns aren’t like that so that’s really good to see. We were really, I don’t know, you just kind of worry a little bit with the political situation and Trump, and you know how that will affect things, you know, but I don’t know if you don’t see, I guess you do feel like those slits are certainly an issue here, but you do feel like there aren’t, there is a diversity of voices still, which is a really reassuring because it could have gone the other way. AM: And I think it helps to have a college, obviously [inaudible]. VC: Yeah. And having something like Asheville nearby, you know, which is really important. The people, when I’m not, when they hear where I’m from, they’re like oh my God, that must be so backward and awful. I don’t, maybe, but I don’t feel like it is, you know. But people really do, it’s interesting to say where you’re from and hear people’s impression of it because it’s not good. But I’m glad I’m from here because I think it gives you a perspective of it, you know, and it’s such a beautiful place. AM: What do you enjoy doing? VC: I enjoy having my boys like experience it because for them America is like a concept. Like they don’t get it. Like something you see on TV or something. Like they don’t really, and it’s also a concept because they also, when we come back during summer, they think everything is summer vacation and always like beautiful like this, I’m like guys, December is not cool, you know. Like you wouldn’t, it’s fun in a different way, but they don’t really do that. But I love them kind of experiencing Sylva and experiencing North Carolina that way. Like they’re at the pool right now, you know jumping off the high-dive, you know, something like that. But I really enjoyed that. I really enjoy catching up with lots of old family friends that my parents knew. My mom passed away about, gosh 15 years ago, but she had so many, she worked in the hospital and she had so many good friends and people, she knew so well here, so when I come back, I feel like I get to kind of reconnect with a lot of people that knew her and that’s really important. AM: It will be nice. VC: Yeah. AM: Well, I guess I’m pretty much done with the questions that I have. Do you have anything else that you want to talk about, maybe like life changing experiences? Anything you’d like to add to the conversations we already had. VC: I think that covers it. I mean I think I feel really fortunate to come to live this two very, in this very different world and have access, still have access to the world of Sylva which I think a lot of people don’t, you either live here like forever and you’re from here. And then people leave Vimala Aldus Crispin 21 and they got to come back once in a while, but then they kind of just leave it completely. And I don’t think I could have stayed here. I mean I would probably have felt too small, but I’m so glad that I have it to come back to. Because I think it’s a really special place. And I’m so glad that my kids know it and we still have our house here and all that. Like to me I feel like that’s really fortunate, I wouldn’t give it up, kind of thing, so. I was wondering if I could actually live here again. I think I might mean a little longer before. But it’s so nice to be able to have both. And so yeah. AM: That’s really cool that you went in here to India and to New York, now in Thailand. VC: Yeah, it’s been fun. AM: Okeydokey, well, if you have nothing else to add, then thank you so much for being interviewed. VC: You’re very welcome. END OF INTERVIEW

Vimala Crispin is interviewed by a Smoky Mountain High School student as a part of Mountain People, Mountain Lives: A Student Led Oral History Project. Crispin describes growing up in Sylva, NC where her parents started Sylva Medical Center in the late 1970s. She discusses her parent

• Creator
  • Crispin, Vimala Aldus
• Contributor
  • Morgan, Anna
• Format
  • Sound recordings
  • Transcripts
  • Interviews
• Type
  • Sound
  • Text
• Date
  • Date interview: 2019-05
• Extent
  • Duration: 0:54:40
  • Pages: 21
• Subject - Topic
  • Boarding schools -- India
  • Child welfare workers
  • Crispin, Vimala Aldus
  • Group identity
  • Malaysians -- United States
  • Rural health services -- North Carolina, Western
• Source institution
  • Western Carolina University
• Source Collection
  • WCU Oral History Collection - Mountain People, Mountain Lives
• Identifier
  • HL_MPML_Morgan_Crispin_2019-05
• Repository
  • Western Carolina University Hunter Library