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  • Duration: 53 pages (transcript)
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  • Western Carolina University
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  • HL_MSS98-03_Crittenden_Kincaid_1986-08-13_transcript

Kincaid 1 WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA TOMORROW BLACK ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Interviewee: Harvey J. Kincaid (K) Also present: Sadie Kincaid (S) Interviewer: Lorraine Crittenden (I) County: Cherokee Date: August 13, 1986 Duration: 1:57:30 Lorraine Crittenden: Reverend Kincaid, has your family always lived in North Carolina? Harvey Kincaid: As far as I know. I: Your parents and grandparents...? K: As far as I know. I don't know where they came from, whether they were born here or whether they came to this country. I really don’t know all of that. They never did say it. I: Okay. Would you trace your family tree as far back as you can on your mother's side and give me the names of your grandparents and so forth? K: All I know is a man named Jim Allen. I don’t know what age he was. And my grandmother named Jenny Allen. I: What was she before an Allen? K: Best I remember, I believe that they said she was a Colbert? I: A Colbert? K: A Colbert, um-hm. And like I said I don't know whether they come here from somewhere or whether they were born and raised here. I don’t know. I: Did they live their lives out here? K: Yes, both of them died here. I was just a teen-ager. I: What did your grandfather and grandmother do to earn a living? K: Back then. They worked and made a living in town. I was too young to know what all they did do back then. As I said they both died when I was a teen-ager. I: Did your grandmother work outside of the home? Kincaid 2 K: That I'm afraid to say because I really don't know. I: Okay. K: My grandfather had a large family from what I’ve heard. He had about 16 or 14 kids. I remember they used to do a lot of farming. They had a horse and [inaudible] and everything. Had horses. I: did they have the cattle and milk from the cow? K: A horse. I guess, I can’t remember. Like I said, it’d been a long time, but they all, they died when I was just young. But I remember the horse because I used to help ride the horse. I: It was a riding horse? K: And they would plow. No, they would plow. They planted the corn, the beans, the taters and stuff all like that. Now, my auntie is living down the road, Vallie Bowman. She could tell you more about them than I'm able to, if you'd like to go out and talk with her. She's seventy some odd years old herself. I: Is she? K: Yes, so I guess I'd better leave that alone and let you talk with her. I: Well, she's ill, isn't she? K: Yes, [pause for phone call] Our grandfather, before he died got sick and the doctors told him he had a bad heart. He willed all the kids a piece of land. That’s where our home, we used to not have a home, we always rented a home, but he gave us a piece of land and we built a home on it. I: Do you know how much land your grandfather owned? K: No, I don't have an idea what that would be. I: Was it enough to spread, to share.... K: He gave one, two, three — I guess there were four kids he gave land to—five, I reckon. Let's see, he gave Arthur, my mother, Viola, Luke Allen. The 5 that were still living, all the rest of the others were dead. Divided up the land with them, gave all them a piece of ground. That's as much as I remember. I: Then he farmed? K: I think back, she ought to go out there. Sadie Kincaid: Miss Vallie would know.... Kincaid 3 I: I looked at hers. K: She didn’t give you any? I: If you need this on tape, she name Arthur Allen, Luther Allen. K: They all dead. I: How are you related? K: They are my uncles. I: And Viola? K: That's my mother. My mother was Vallie Mae Bowman's sister. I: And you were saying that your grandfather gave his children each a lot to build on? K: Best I could remember. like I say, some of this could be fault, but I do remember my mother’s part we got the land gave to us, deeded to us. Seemed like Arthur Allen was deeded to him. Seem to me like. And Jay got the homeplace. I: Now, is that an uncle? K: Yes, he's my uncle. All these brothers I mentioned are the brothers to Vallie Bowman. I: Okay, and how are you related to Vallie? K: She's my aunt. Her and my mother was sisters. Like I say, I may be misstating some of this. May be different from what they might tell you. I: But this is as you remember. K: Best as I remember, like I say. I: Okay. Now, you said you enjoyed going to your grandmother's house... K: I used to enjoy going to their house. I remember that much. My grandpa always had something for us. I: Like what? K: Well, it may be candy, and there were apples. I remember they had apples in big barrels. Yes, they'd give us some apples. And especially around Christmas time he’d give us apples. I don’t know where he kept em, in barrels I reckon. I don’t know where he kept em at. Kincaid 4 I: Now, were these trees and things on his land? K: Yes. He had apple trees. And I remember he used to give us apples. I: And so he farmed? K: Yes. And he worked on construction. I: Construction? K: Daily construction work. I remember they worked at a place like I told you called Colesville or Ridland. Used to be some king of mine-getting out marble. I: In Marble? K: Marble, N.C. Used to get out in Marble. Working in the quarry. I don’t know where the quarry is, I know it was Addie. S: It’s in Marble. K: I was only a kid at that time. I don’t know, may not even be there no more as far as I know. S: Yes it is. K: Is it? Well, I’ve never been. I just know my grandfather used to work there. Best I can remember. They get up and leave early. I: How did he get from his home to the quarry? K: They had to walk. S: He walked. K: They walked. They would leave about. I: From Texana and walk? K: They'd leave about 3 o'clock in the morning and walk and they'd be way late in the night coming back. I don't know what time, around 9 or 10 o'clock. I: Well, that has to be at least 12 miles, at the very least. S: I believe so. I: And they walked? Kincaid 5 K: Far as I know. See, like I said, I was a kid at that time and I don’t know whether they had any transportation at that time or not, I just don’t know. S: No, they didn't. You know better than that. There's people that used to walk from Martin's Creek to Murphy. I: Now where is that? S: Oh, that's out Old 64. There’s no black business, probably haven’t been there and probably hadn’t been mentioned but years ago. That's like six or seven miles, I guess. And used to be some black people lived about three miles from town which we call Notla. Now, that's where my grandparents and people lived at first. I: Who were your grandparents? S: Lord, don't tell me I've forgotten… Florence Suddarth… when you pin me down…[laughter] And that was my grandmother, I don’t know anything about Grandfather. And they all lived on oh, it used to be a big settlement, just about like this. And the children walked to school, here in Texana, 3 miles from Notla. The school is located above the community building. I: And so they walked six miles round trip? S: Right. And on Sunday they came to church over here. I: Okay. Did members in the community or in your family own a horse and buggy? K: No, my daddy used to own a horse, and a cow. We always had a cow we had to milk. I: Well, did you ever have a buggy? K: No, we didn't have a buggy. We're too poor to have one white people had buggies, blacks didn't have nothin' like that. (laughter) S: So you walked. Do you remember when, in this community, when it wasn't but three cars? K: Hum, yeah, I remember that. I: Who was that? S: Mr. Andy Wiley, you know Bertie, Mabel, and Lillian. He was their father, he had a pressin' club in town. K: A pressin' club, yeah. S: What they called a pressin' club was dry cleaning. Kincaid 6 K: Dry cleaning what they called a pressing club back in those days. I: That was Andrew Wiley? K: Right. Um-hm. S: And Troy Bowman had a car. K: Troy Bowman. S: He lived just below the church and Mr. Frank Siler which lived right down there. So they owned cars. K: They owned a car. S: I can remember when those three people owned cars. K: That’s the only cars there was. S: No one else had one. Everybody else walked to work. I: That was Andrew Wiley? S: Right. And Troy Bowman, which lived just below the church up there. And Mr. Frank Siler which lived right down there. I: So they owned cars. S: I can remember when those three people owned cars. K: That’s the only cars there was. S: Everybody else walked to work. K: They had jobs and they made pretty good money back then. You could buy things back then. I remember when cars sell at $400. A brand new car. I: A new car would cost around $400! K: Um-hm. laughter. $400. I remember that. At least that's what you'd heard them say anyhow. I remember people used to buy a second-hand car for only $25 or $30. Still couldn’t own one. I just give $25 for it. I remember him saying that. I’m just a boy, just a kid, just a teenager I reckon and I can’t remember whether all this is true or not. I'm just quoting from boyhood stuff and it may not even be true. Kincaid 7 I: Oh, I'm sure if you remember it. . . Do you remember if the people with the cars would share if there were an emergency or anything like that? K: Oh, yes. I remember Mr. Frank Sudduth, like the association—I don't know whether it would be in Bryson City or where it would be, but they'd be all day going and coming. You know, Bryson City was so far away at that time. You couldn’t take but two trips. He'd go and he'd come back, take a trip. Then he’d be way up in the night. He’d bring them back. And then go get the last load and bring them back. And the other words, it was an all day’s journey just to go, I believe it was just to go from here Bryson City, I believe it was. Or maybe it was Sylva, I don't know. S: But he would bring the church people to our church and go back and come back. K: Like he was having an association or something or some kind of big outing. I barely can remember that. But the people who had cars back then, they was pretty good about taking a load if they didn't have a load of their own family. Now, you can go to Bryson City in about a hour's time. I: Right, do you remember if your grandfather had an education? K: I don't know whether my grandpa could read or write, I just don't know. I: How about your grandmother? K: I really don't know that much about them. They've been dead a long time. Both of them has. I: Okay, what about the grandparents on your father's side of the family? K: I didn't see my grandfather on my father's side. He died before I was born. I: Do you remember his name? K: His name was Monroe Kincaid. I: Monroe? K: Monroe Kincaid. I never did see him, but my oldest brother…he wasn't quite a year old, from what I was told, when our grandfather on our daddy’s side died. So, I didn’t see him, none of the rest of us Kincaid boys and girl didn’t see him. I: Did he live here in Murphy, though? Was his home here? K: Yes, as far as I know. From what they say, right out about where Frank Suddarth lives right now, there used to be an old two-story house there and that was where he lived. I: Your father's father. . . Kincaid 8 K: My father’s father lived and that where he died. I: Is that still in this community? K: Yeah, that's still in Texana community. S: Right below the church. K: Right below the church. You know where Catherine and Frank lived? Right in that vicinity a big two-story house used sit there. I: Oh, okay. S: Across the highway form the church. K: Um-hm, like I said, this was in my boyhood days. I couldn’t have been a teenager at that time. I: What do you remember of your grandmother on your father's side? K: Well, we always called her Granny Hall and that's all I remember about her. She lived to be old herself, and she used to be married to a man called Levi Hall and he was a preacher. I: What stands out in your memory about your grandmother, Granny Hall? K: Well, she always looked after us, took care of us, when we'd get sick she'd set up with us. I: Did she live with your parents? K: No, she didn't live with my parents, but she didn't live too far from us. I: And so if a child were ill she'd… S: She was a midwife. K: Yes, she was. She was a midwife, that's right. She delivered many… I think she delivered all of us. I'm sure of that, because we didn't know anything about doctors back then. I think my grandmother, Granny Hall, I believe she delivered all us Kincaid boys, and girl. And most all the rest of them born in this community I guess. She was a midwife. I: Well that's wonderful. As a midwife, was she paid? K: Not that I know. See, I was too young. I don't know if they paid her or not. They might, may give her a quarter or a nickel or a dime or something. Laughter. S: Oh, come on. Kincaid 9 K: [Laughing] Well, I don't know. S: I imagine they paid her some fee, surely. K: I don’t know. I heard nothing about no money. [laugh] I: Didn’t hear about that part. Okay. So you remember her more or less as a nurse. Would that be fair? S: Well, back then they called them midwives, just deliver babies. I: Right. Now, what stands out in your memory about your Granny Hall? K: Well, all I know is this. I remember she used to wash, and that’s the way they made their living back then. The blacks used to wash the clothes for the white people, iron them. I remember that about Granny Hall. I: With the irons on the fire. K: Yeah, that's right, them old-fashioned iron you heat. They had a fireplace, and they'd set the irons up there and heat them by the fireplace. S: [Laughter] We heated ours on the stove. K: I was around eight or nine years old. I wasn’t quite a teenager back then see. Like I’m saying, now Granny Hall, of course she lived to see what we have now, electricity and stuff, she lived to see that. The many year when electricity came in style. I must have been 8 or 9 years old or 10. But I can still remember how they used to iron clothes, put them up there and heath them with the fire. I: You said, so she put the irons on the fireplace? K: On an ironing board. I: I was going to say, was there an ironing board as we know it? K: Well, yes I guess there was. S: We had an ironing board. K: I used to look at them and watch. I don't know whether they had ironing boards then. S: Oh, yes they did. K: I believe it was just a flat piece of board and they laid it upon a table. Kincaid 10 S: Or on two chairs. K: On two chairs or either on a table. S: Somehow you fixed it so it wouldn't fall over. I: Right. K: Anyhow, I remember that. S: That's the first ironing board I remember, was just a wide board. K: Yeah, I remember that, since she mentioned it they did have ironing boards. It was just a big board that laid up on something there and they'd put the clothes on there and iron them. I: Now, did your grandmother have a washing machine? K: Lord, no. Yeah, this hand. S: Just as hard as you could rub. Yeah, they had a thing they called a rub board. K: A rub board. Um-hm. We've still got a ole-timey rub board. Let me just show her, in case she hasn't ever seen one of them. I: Did she have one of those big old black kettles? K: Yes, she had the big old kettle. You made a fire under it outside. S: A wash pot. K: A big old black—they called them wash pots. I remember my Granny Hall having one. And Granny Allen.... S: Everybody had one of those. K: Everybody had one as far as I remember. Let me just show you an old-timey rub board... iron, and the old rub board. And I remember they used to have what they called beatin' stick or a beatin' paddle. It was a big old thing made like a paddle, like a boat paddle. And you take like real dirty clothes, like overalls. People used to wear overalls a lot. And they took the clothes and soak them good and then you take this old board and beat. Beat the dirt out. Now, see, I must have been around eight or nine years old, because I can remember this stuff. If I'd been any younger than that I don't believe I'd a been able to remember. I: Right. Kincaid 11 K: I wasn't a teen-ager at that time, but I'm just telling you what happened, when I was young. I: So she would beat these overalls? K: That’s right. They’d be clean too. You put that devil eye to them some way or another. Not devil eye, you remember they used to make soap. I said devil eye, now devil eye would eat them up. I: Lye soap. K: What they called lye soap. They used to make that stuff and had it in great big buckets of some kind. Take a handful and smear it on real dirty clothes. The menfolk worked in ditches, they were real muddy. Them britches would be real muddy. Overalls would be. And they would fill that full and beat them. I've stood and watched that a long time. I used to help Granny in the woods. We'd drag brush to heat the water in the big wash pot. Big old black pots they had. They'd build fire around it and the kids would have to go in the woods to get that dry and put it around it so the water would boil to boil the clothes. We got hot water to wash clothes. Now we have a hot water tank. K: What did she so in the winter time, though? S: Same thing. K: Same thing. [Chuckle.] I: But washed inside? K: Same thing. I remember they set tin up around the pot outside so the wind wouldn't blow the fire out, and they'd heat the water enough to knock the chill off of the water. I reckon that's what they were doing. I'm just kindly trying to tell you from memory. I: That's all right, you’re doing fine. K: We have our washing machines, we got our hot water tanks. I: Do you remember when someone in your family got the first wringer machine, washing machine? K: No, that I don't remember. I: Did your grandma have one before she died. S: I doubt it. K: I doubt it, because we were grown before my mother had a wringer washer. Kincaid 12 I: Now, could your grandmother read and write? K: Ms. Hall, yeah, she could do. Now, on my daddy’s side. I don't know about my grandmother on my mother's side, Grandma Allen. I don't know whether Grandma Allen could read or not. S: Ms. Hall could. I remember that. K: Yeah, she was a Hall. She was a missionary lady and I remember she would read the Bible. I: Do remember what her name was besides Granny? K: Victoria, Victoria Hall. She was always reading scripture, and pray and I remember that they had missionary meetings and we'd go and listen to them have a missionary meeting. They would read the bible. That's why I say I know she could read. On my grandmother’s side, on my mother’s side, I don’t know if they could read or not, neither my grandfather on my mother’s side. I don’t know. S: Miss Vallie would know. K: Vallie Bowman, that was her parents, maybe she would have known whether they could or not. I: Now, let's come down to your mother and father. Your father was Fred Douglas Kincaid. K: Right. I: Did he live here all of his life? K: Far as I know. I: Did your parents ever own their own home? K: Yeah, they owned their own home. Now, they didn't when we were kids but later on in life, before we got grown, our grandfather willed the children some land and that's where my home is out there. My mother and dad owned where my baby brother Paul lives. He got the home, when they died. It fell to him because it should, because he took care of them during their sickness before they died. And, of course, we were married and had our own homes, m and my other brothers. I: What do you remember about your father? K: I remember him being a deacon of the church. As long as I can remember he was a deacon of the church. And my father used to work for the railroad. I: What did he do? Kincaid 13 K: He'd coal up the engine so they could run from Murphy to Asheville. I: So, he would have to start early in the morning? K: At night, get 'em coaled up at night. I remember that about my dad. I: Did he stay on that job a long time? K: He stayed on there a good long time. And I remember my dad used to work at the lumber yard. We'd go and take his dinner down there to him. He was loadin' lumber in box cars. I: On the train. K: On the train, yeah. There was a fellow there, what we call scaling lumber, that was measuring it. In other words, to make it plain, he was measuring the lumber and my dad would carry it and help stack it in the box cars at the depot. Used to go down there many times and watch them. I must have been around eight or nine to ten years old. I: So, he worked for the railroad for many years. K: Many years. I: Did he do any other kind of work? K: Yes, I remember we didn't live here in this community all of our lives. We used to live across town, in what we call East Murphy. We lived over there and there was a man named W. M. Fain, he was a white fellow, owned the big horse [inaudible]. My dad worked for him. And I remember my dad, on Christmas, at Thanksgiving and Christmas, people were always ordering turkey and buying turkeys. My dad would kill those turkeys and clean them. He already worked for W. M. Fain. Anyway. Whoever ordered turkey, like he had so many turkeys sold, Daddy would have to kill and clean that many turkeys, well, however many got sold—and the same way on Christmas. I remember that well. I: Now, was Fain a merchant in Murphy? K: Yeah, he was a businessman in Murphy. He owned a big wholesale. He had all kind of feed for cattle, hogs, fertilizer to put on your land. I: So, a general store? K: It was a big wholesale. It was everything, that's right. S: Well, we had what was called Hackneys wholesale. All the stores in town ordered their merchandise from Hackneys. Kincaid 14 K: Also, from W. M. Fain and he would deliver uptown. He was a big wholesaler, it was called Wholesaler, that’ the name of the place. Anything people needed for their stores they ordered from W. M. Fain. He would help load the trucks—Dewey Fain, Bernard Jackson also. S: They would go to Atlanta or wherever and pick up and bring it to the wholesale and then the merchants in Murphy ordered whatever they needed from the Wholesaler. K: Yeah, and here's something else. Now, during the winter months he always had I don't know how many carloads of coal would come in and they’s have to unloaded that on the ground. And then the people that ordered coal for the winter… Dewey Fain and Harry Fain, they were brothers, they would load that coal and haul it to the different homes all over Murphy, and even up into Blairsville and Hiawassee, Georgia and Hayesville and places like that. I: Like Blairsville, Georgia? K: Um-hm. They used to go into Blairsville. It was just a great big wholesale right next to the railroad track. Cause everything come in there by train. And all the stores around Murphy and Blairsville and Hayesville and all, would order from through W. M. Fains Wholesale and it was in cases and stuff, like corn cases of corn, beans, whatever you might need during the winter. I: Now, did you own your own home when you live on the… K: No, no, it was a white man, we lived in a white man's house—Craig Mauney was his name. He was a professor. He owned a 25-acre farm and we lived in one of their homes. I: While you were working for Fain. K: Yeah, my daddy worked for Fain. Yeah, I don't remember what the house rent was, 'cause I remember he used to pay house rent. We walked from there over here to school. I: How far is that? K: 'Bout couple miles. And I used to myself, I’d milk cows every morning, I’d milk them every evening. Milk them in the morning, get ready and feed the hogs. Now, this was for old man Mauney. And I would come over here to school and we'd, walk back in the evening and I had that same job to do in the evening, milk cows and feed the hogs. And they give me 50 cents a week for doing that and 'course when they killed the hogs they'd always give us a load or meat. They always had four and five hogs. I: Now, could your father read and write? K: Daddy couldn't read well. . .just print. . .Now you couldn’t write, if you write it couldn't read it. I: Now, that's interesting. Kincaid 15 K: That's right. My daddy could read anything that was printed. Now, if you wrote it. I: Like if you wrote him a letter. K: No, he couldn't read that, but if you printed it, he could. S: Just writing. I: Cursive writing. K: Right. Yeah… he couldn't read but printed work he could read. Now, that's unusual. I: But printed he could read. K: Yeah, he could pick up a book or paper or anything and read it good. And the Bible, just as good as anybody else could read the Bible. I: Do you know how much education your father had? K: No, I don't. When he was a boy they just had three months school. I: Three months? K: Three months. During the summer months, they always worked on the farm. I reckon they went to school in the winter time. I reckon that's the way it was. I’m just guess working at it. S: Well, I've heard it said that they went to school till harvest time. . . K: Harvest time. To take care of the apples and the corn and pick the corn and dig potatoes. I: How did your father store his potatoes? K: He dug a hole in the ground and put some straw in it and covered them up in the ground. Big humps in the ground out there. You just dig a big hole in the ground right where you dug your potatoes at. I: So, did every house have a spring house where they could store, milk and… K: No—yeah, they had what they call basements, not the kind of basements we would have now. Basement under the house. I: Well, how did you keep your milk and refrigerated things cold. K: Well, when we were kids you bought ice in blocks. S: We had what you call an icebox. Kincaid 16 K: Had what you called a icebox, and you bought blocks of ice every day, or every other day, I forget which one. S: He'd come on… I know he came at least twice a week. K: Yeah, you'd get a hundred pound blocks of ice. I: A hundred pounds? K: Yeah, he'd come round with ice tongs in his hand holdin' the ice and just set it down in your icebox. And you kept all your food sitting on the ice. It was called a icebox. S: Icebox. Three doors on it, one for the ice, an on this side was a door with shelves, and maybe there was another door with shelves. And you kept a pan under there to catch the water. K: Um-hm. We had a drain, had a little spout in under there to catch the water when it melted. S: And I remember we'd following the iceman. He'd always give us a chunk of ice. I: Oh, really? S: Just to eat. I: Tell me about your mother. K: Well, Mama used to work out, her and Daddy both worked out to make a living for us, and she worked around the home cleaning, washing, and ironing. I remember that well. I: She would go outside the home to work too. K: Yeah, I remember that. We were pretty good children. Oh, 'course, you know how children got a lot of meanness in them, but if we were going to do anything mean we'd do it before Mamma and Daddy come back home. I: [Chuckle.] And look like angels when she got home. K: Oh, lord, yes. I: I believed all kids are like that. S: oh yes, 6 boys and 1 girl in his family. I: There was quite a bit of activity I’m sure. Was your mother active in the church or community? Kincaid 17 K: Well, no, not too active. She would go to church every once in a while. I: Did she have much education? K: No, no. I don’t nothing about schools when they were kids. I don’t’ know what kind of schools they had. S: Well, she could read. I: She could read? K: Yeah, she could read. I don't know how much education she had. I remember this, when we were kids, we had oil lamps. That's why we got one now, we just keep that for old time's sake. S: … now, that lamp came from school. I remember taking a quarter to school to buy those lamps. I: For your home? S: No, no, for the school. I: For the school? S: And we happened to get one of them. When the school got electricity. K: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's kind of like the kind of lamps we used to have we were kids. That's what I'm trying to say to her. Like oil lamps. I: Oil lamps. S: Wall lamps. K: And we'd light the lamps and we'd always get our lesson out for school before it got dark because you see more and it seemed like oil lamps didn't give too good a light. It was all they could do till they got electricity. And I was just a teen-ager when they got electricity in this community. But before that time, I remember lamps. Oil lamps. You put oil in and trim your wick, and you had to wash the lamp globes. S: Oh, you've seen lamps of that kind, I know. I: Oh, sure. Now, I've never seen one on the wall like that. S: Really? I: No. Kincaid 18 S: Well, I remember when we went to school, I was raised next door. We moved to Texana when I was seven and my aunt's son was ten and it was just the three of us. I don't remember anything about her husband. I: And they had wall lamps at school? S: Yes, I remember us taking a quarter to school to buy those lamps. I: So, each family had to pay? Oh! Okay. S: And, like I said, we were lucky enough to get one of them when they got electricity in the school. I: Let's talk a little bit about the education that you and your brothers and sister. K: At the time our school only went to ninth grade. That’s as far as it went up here. I: Did any of your brothers and sisters go away to get a high school education? K: Yeah, my sister Hazel, she went to high school in Elizabethton, Tennessee. I was fortunate when I went down to my brother's funeral here in June. I went and looked at the high school. I didn't know when I'd ever be back any more, in that vicinity, so I just went and looked at the high school, where my sister finished high school. And it was just a beautiful brick building, a beautiful big school. I: Now, did your parents have to pay for her to go off to school? K: Yeah, well, she lived down there with our brother but they had to keep money for her clothes and other necessities. And they didn't charge us, they mostly boarded her free. But they'd send money down, to help along. K: Ninth grade. I: Well, did the state not help? S: No! K: No, the state wouldn't help, the state wouldn't help with anything. S: No, sir. Now, we went—take Frank, Fred, Ed, me, Roy Henry, Mae, Wade… we all went to what we call Lincoln Academy out at … six miles from Gastonia, King's Mountain! I: Kings Mountain? Kincaid 19 S: It was a Methodist school. But we had no other choice. Now, the boys…$15 a month was all you had to pay and you boarded, of course. And Ed worked and got $9 a month for working and my aunt only had to pay $6 a month. When I went, I got $6 a month for working—two weeks in the dining hall, two weeks in the laundry—and she had to pay $9 a month for me. I: Why the difference? S: I don't know. And at that time, they had what they called NYA. I: Now what was that? S: National Youth Association. And there were, I forgot, maybe a hundred or more of them that did work, and some of them went to school and some of them didn't. Because the school had a farm and, like I said, they did their own laundry, and they had to take care of the cows and all of that. I: Now, this was there? S: King's Mountain. I: Lincoln Academy? S: Lincoln Academy was the name of the school. I: And you could finish high school there. S: Right. I: So, when you were growing up in the summer, you had to really work to save that money up…$15 S: You had to save that, money. Right, for your tuition. I forget how much it was but anyway you only paid $15 a month. I: Well, how did you get from here to King's Mountain? S: On the bus. I: On the bus? Did you stay year-round, or nine months or come home for the holidays? S: Nine months. Now, I think NYA kids, stayed the year round. Because it seems that some of them sewed for… they made shirts, those old blue shirts like men used to wear with their overalls. for some special organization. It wasn't the Army or, I don't remember now what. I: Did you get higher than a ninth-grade education? Kincaid 20 K: No, no more. Just educated myself, through readin' every book I could get my hand on, every paper I could get my hand on. Then, I took a correspondence course when I went into the ministry and that's the way I got to where I am now. I: With the correspondence courses? In what? K: In ministry. I: Religion? Theology? K: Yeah. What I know now. I don't claim to be a… S: What was the name of the courses that we took when [inaudible] started. K: This was seminary extension courses. S: Seminary extension courses. K: I took a seminary extension course. I: But you stayed right here at home. S: Right. K: Right here in Murphy. This came through the First Baptist Church. S: A white church. K: White church, the First Baptist Church. They started a seminary extension course and they spread it over here to us so we could and we went through that. I: Now, was this correspondence or did you go to classes at the church? S: No, no. We went to class at church. K: Went to class at church. I: I see. Okay. So… K: And so that's the way I got where I am now. I: Okay, when you finished the ninth grade, you were approximately what, 14? K: I guess. I guess I was 14 or 15, somewhere along there. Kincaid 21 S: Oh, I doubt that, 'cause I was 17 when I went to King's Mountain and we had… well, our classes were so extended that you went from the ninth grade to the eleventh, 'cause what Lincoln academy had for the tenth grade we had already had it. I: Oh, I see! S: And I remember I was 17 when I went to King's Mountain and that was just finishing the ninth grade. 'Course back then, kids went to school the time they shed their diapers because mother and father was- at work and the older brother and sister had to take the little ones to school with them. K: Yeah, you could go if you were 5 years old. I'm sure I stayed in some grades two years. S: You could go if you were 3 years old! I: And your brothers could take you? S: Right, they sure could. K: And you'll get to study just like the rest of 'em. They give pencil and paper and you go ahead—chuckle. S: Sure did. I remember. . . K: Not like it is now. You have to be six year before you go to school now. S: No, kids went to school then with their brothers and sisters. I: Now, that's interesting. S: . . .Because, your, mother and father were working. I: Right. S: The little ones would go on with the big ones. I: Well, what did you do after you finished school as far as you had here? K: Well, I went into the CC camp and stayed a long time. I: The Civilian Conservation. . .? K: I guess you've heard of it, Conservation Corp, Cooperation corps. I: Okay. Kincaid 22 K: Stayed there a good long while and then came… I: And where was this? K: That was in Shelby, just a little way out from Shelby, North Carolina. 'Cause we used to go downtown in Shelby. On the weekends they let us go downtown. I: What did you do there? K: Come out of there, well I reckon it just 'bout like kids are doin' now, you know, on this school program they have, doing somethin' for the kids. I reckon that's about the way it was. Just anything to be done, we had to go help do it. I: And you stayed there? K: I don't know exactly how long I stayed. I soon come out. I: But I mean you stayed in Shelby at this camp? K: Yeah, um-hm. And it looked kinda like…I saw it one time after I went in the Army. It looked about the way I remember army barracks look now. I: What do you remember about your life in the Army? K: I went in the Army, I went to Fort Bragg after I was inducted in at Fort Bragg. I went from there to a camp Sibert Alabama. Left Alabama, and then I went from there to Texas, stayed in Texas till I finished up my basic training, and I was shipped out from there, Went to California. S: Went to Camp Polk. K: Yeah, Camp Polk, Louisiana, yeah, that's right, then Camp Polk, Louisiana, too. Camp Sibert, Alabama, Camp Polk, Louisiana, and Camp Waldress Texas. I was in three camps. I: Now, did you learn a special skill while you were in the Army? K: I used to be what we call contamination unit, well, we worked with gas, all kind of gases and we had what we call apparatus to decontaminate this gas. I: What was the gas used for? K: Well, it's poison gas like they use now. I: You mean like radiation, you burst it or… K: That's right. It was in canisters like an airplane would spray it from the air and we had our gas masks to put on and we had our decontamination unit. We had all kind of big trucks and Kincaid 23 machinery made to… and there was different chemicals in this truck that you'd spray on that stuff so it's safe now, like if you was to be overseas and a plane throwed poison gas on you, or if you didn't get burnt too bad, you could decontaminate the area where it was sprayed at by sprayin' this stuff on it. I: Oh! Was that a dangerous job? K: Yes, it was dangerous. Any time you fool with poison gas it's dangerous. You could get killed. I: Did you get paid any more for doing that? K: No, well, when I first entered into the Army, I only got $50 a month, that's all the Army was payin' then. Before going in the Army I worked with the TVA, I just got called to the TVA, and went down to Fontana. I: Oh! Fontana Dam, down there? K: Yeah, that's when they were building. I went down and worked there at 50 cents an hour. That was money then. And I got a call… I didn't get to stay with the TVA but about three to four months, that’s all I got to stay cause I got a call and had to into the Army. I: So, you were drafted? K: I was drafted, that's right. I: Now, were you…did you fight in the wars? K: Well, yes, in a way we fought. We was in the Philippines and we got bombed there in the Philippines. I: Now, was this World War II or Korea? K: This was World War II. I: World War II. During that time were the black troops and the white troops separated? K: Separated at that time, during that time. We did have white officers. Our captain was white. Our first and second lieutenants, they were white. But we stayed all at the same, in the same place together. But in tents. I: Did you have barracks? K: No, we didn't have barracks. Not in the Philippines. I: Not in the Philippines but… Kincaid 24 K: But in America you had barracks, but it was separated, just before the integration came in. I: Right. That's what I had heard. K: But we had white officers, but we were in a black… we had A Company, B Company, C Company, and D Company which was blacks. And whites had the same thing, but you were separated. In other words, we might be here in this community. It was Army, understand, it was all Army—we're here in the Army, and in town there's another Army place and maybe that was all whites. Now, that's the way it was when I was in the Army. You were separated. We didn't know anything about integration… I: But when you fought were you separated then? K: Separated then. S: When you fought? K: Unless you run together and get mixed up there and that's the only way you mixed up then. I: Well, did the black soldiers [end of side one, some lost] K: up to the front line and back. We had black sergeants, first sergeant, there was a staff sergeant, there was a private, there was a corporal, like myself, I was a T5, because I went to school and learned to use these apparatuses and how to use this gas and stuff. And they gave me a badge it had a T there and in under it was a 5. And it was called T5, for technician. And that's about all I remember. I remember this, when we landed in the Philippines, we had just got landed good and we had run out, when we got to where we were gunna get off the ship at, and we started to shore, which we made it and we had run out and started diggin' fox holes. And the Japanese began to bomb that same night. Bombs just fallin' everywhere around us. That same night. Buildings! Lord, how mercy! How it tore down buildings and stuff! I: So how were you protected? K: Well, we just stayed in the foxhole. I: Foxholes. K: That's right. I guess you know what a foxhole is, I hope you do. You dig… I: But between the time you landed and started toward shore, did you have time to dig the holes? K: No, no. There were some off where other soldiers had went in ahead of us. I: Oh, okay! Kincaid 25 K: And we jumped down in those old foxholes already dug. And I remember this. I can tell anybody, I've heard a-many a gun, many a bomb, all that noise. . . I: So, you were there during the bombing of Pearl Harbor? K: No, I did not go to Pearl Harbor. I wasn't at Pearl Harbor, Pearl Harbor happened, that's how come we had to go overseas on account of Pearl Harbor. I: But they were still fighting? Was there one incident that you remember from those years more than others? K: Well, lord, I don't know, there was so much going on. I: Did you receive any medals? K: Yeah, I got two battle stars. I: Now, how do you earn those? K: Being in the battle, bombs getting dropped around you. I got battle starts. I got two of those. I got good conduct medals and I got campaign medals for being in the vicinity. I got a Philippine campaign medal. For being in the Philippines during the war, when the war was going on. I got those. And that's all I can tell you. I: Is that all you remember about being in the war? K: Um-hm. Yeah, that's all I remember. I remember a lot of our boys I was there with got killed. I remember that. I: Were you a changed man when you came back? K: Yeah. I know I was. I: In which way? K: Well, I don't know. It’s just… I became a changed man. I don't how, in what way. But anyway, I know when I come back I'm a different man altogether than what I was. I: Did you feel any differently about living in America? K: Well, when I come back, oversees… I don't know how it is now, I'd like to go back over there sometime, just to visit around. It was about the same over there as it was over here. There was segregation over there. You know, people didn't have anything to do with the blacks, just like they did here in America. S: Chuckle. They told them they had tails. [Laughter.] Kincaid 26 I: Oh, dear. K: [Chuckle.] The did, the Philippiners, at that time, the little kids, they would come and look at you, and they'd say, "You ain't got no tail." So they must 'a been told by the whites that the blacks looked like monkeys and had tails. The must 'a been told that, I mean I don't know no other way to explain it. [Chuckle] But a lot of those Philippino kids, were hungry, and the would run up to us and want food. And 'course we didn't have anything but old K rations and cookies. You buy them in the store, same kind you buy in the store in the cans. Oblong crackers you see in the store, some kind of our bread wafers were, and you had some kind of meat. You had three packs of cigarettes in a little box I guess about that wide. I: You mean three cigarettes? K: Three cigarettes in a box. I: How long was that supposed to last, the cigarettes? K: Well, you might get one after two or three days. And we had what we call K rations. And that's why I said there was K rations. There’s a difference in the K ration and the C ration, I forgot what all was in them it's been so long. Whether it was the K that had the cigarettes in it or where it was the C ration that had the cigarettes in it. And I remember in the Army, before we had to go overseas, at the end of the month each man got a case of beer. And I'd sell mine because I didn't drink beer. I didn't drink liquor or beer, so I'd sell my case every payday, I sell it 15 cents a can. [Laughter] That's right. I didn't drink it, so I just sold mine. I know the rest of them, everybody in my company drank beer. I: Did you send your money back to your family? K: My mother got $25 and I kept $25. I: Was there one place that you traveled during the war that you remember most and would like to return to? K: I'd like to go back to the Philippines. I wished I had the money to go back to the Philippines. I'd like to see it. Because, I remember everything being tore down. They bombed so and tore everything down except one man's home. And how come they didn't tear up that big mansion of General Douglas MacArthur I'll never know. It was a honey. I: It was whose mansion? K: General Douglas MacArthur's. I: And it wasn't bombed? K: It wasn't bombed. I don't understand that part. Kincaid 27 I: Hah! Well, once you came back…. K: And all those ships, see, all those ships layin' out there on their side and then seein' the big smokestacks, you 'member them big stacks on the ship, and you could see that stickin' up out of the water and part of the ships up out of the water… in the harbor, understand… where they bombed and all those ships were in the water of course all that's been cleared, I understand. Now, the harbor's in good shape now, they tell me. I'd like to go back. If I was able, I’d like to go back. I: Did you make any friends with any or the white soldiers? K: Yeah, I made friends with 'em. Well, they were good to us. Here's what's happening. That's what I'm sayin', over there was just like it was here in America. It was segregated over there. The people… the Philippino had nothin' to do with the black, and we'd go… I’ll tell you what happened. One Sunday, they let us go out in the town, and the white soldier would go in the drug stores there where they sold ice cream… I don't know whether it was a grocery of drug store but there was ice cream sold, anyway, white soldier would go in there and get the ice cream for us and bring it back out there to us. I: Even in the Philippines. K: In the Philippines! It was just like it was over here, I tell you. It wasn't no different. It was segregated over there as it was over here. I: So when you came back home, did you come back to Murphy? K: Yeah, I came back to Murphy. I: Did you have a feeling then that something wasn't right for the black man? K: Yeah. We could tell the differences just the minute we got back to America, segregation again. See? But you were sort of in friendship overseas, till you got back and then you could feel it. The minute you got back to America they separated. We came back to California and you could tell right then. Segregation began again. I: You weren't treated any better even though you had fought overseas? K: Yeah, we hadn't been treated any better when we first got back until this integration started, what Dr. Martin Luther King did for us, before anything got any better. You weren't treated any better. Now, I tried this when I come back. They told me that I was too old. I came back. I tried to go to school under the GI bill. And they said the government just don't accept you at that age. So, at that time I didn't know where to turn. I didn't know where to look to to find out anything different. But now you can find out things different from way back then. I: And so you weren't allowed to use what you had earned. Kincaid 28 K: No I didn't get to use, I mean that I didn't get to go under the GI bill. So, I guess that's the reason. I: Were you bitter? K: I was sort of bitter about it, I was. But I didn't know where to turn, what authority to go see to see if there was any difference. I just took their word for it. I: Well, you're back home. What was the climate like between blacks and whites here in Murphy? Did the two races interact? S: We've always had pretty good relations, between the black and the white. K: We've had a pretty good relationship, as far as. . . S: It's always been pretty good. If something happened, for instance, like someone's house burned or some tragedy or something, they're always here to help out, wherever they could. K: Um-hm, they were here. S: Most of the victims would end up with more than they had before they were burned out. I: What about in the earlier days? K and S: Well, you know, I can say this about Murphy. It was pretty good, except eating at the cafe and places like that. Well, that was just Jim Crow. That was over. But as far as good relations, we still have. It was just Jim Crow, that's all I want to say. But as far as relationship… good relationship here in Murphy. They would come to us and we would go to them. That's why I reckon it's so…. when we integrated, it wasn't no trouble to us to integrate. I: There was on trouble? S: No, sir K: Huh-uh No, brother! They come that come to us, we didn't go to them. They come to us and said, now you all are going to go over to our school next year, and this school over here won't be any more. We going to furnish the buses to ride. See, they came to us … we didn't go to them. I: Did any members of the black community say we did not want integration? S: We didn't. This way our children could finish high school. K: Oh, we didn't. We left this on record… I: You didn't want it? Kincaid 29 S: We didn't want to. And they thought that was something. In other places people were fighting to integrate, and here we could and didn't want to. Our children would not have to leave home to finish high school. K: I said this, " Your children are taught to do evil things to blacks." I told them to their face, I said, "Now if you get too rough on my kids, I'm coming to see about it." We told them that, "We will come over there rough." And they wouldn't allow any reporters in the day the kids started school. [Slight chuckle.] S: And we didn't… I: Did your parents go? S: No. K: No, the parents didn't go, we told our children not to start any trouble and if they started anything to take care of themselves. S: No! We could have gone if we wanted t o— K: Yeah, if you wanted to. S: —but we said we weren't going. Nobody went that I know of. Didn't have a bit of trouble—Okay, they had some trouble at school, but we didn't know about it. What they would do is put on boxing gloves and let them fight it out. K: Fight it out! [Chuckle.] S: That we learned later, that's how they solved the problems. I: And the children didn't tell you till later. K: Till later. I: Always after the fact! S: And I remember this last primary they had in May, this white guy was running—for commissioner, his last name was Barnett. K: Yeah. S: Oh, he was so hateful to blacks. Well, my daughter and those told him one day that a black man was his daddy and they had him cryin'. [Great laughter.] Honey, they didn't make anything off of them. And I remember when Martin Luther King got killed, we didn't send our kids to school. Kincaid 30 K: No, we didn't send 'em to school. S: They didn't want to go K: And we didn't send 'em. S: And we didn't send them the day they buried him, but we watched it on TV. And the principal had the nerve to ask me, "How come your kids didn't come to school!?" I said, "You don't have to ask me that question—You know exactly why they didn't come. You know why they didn't come." And, those children, if they didn't talk trash to that man… I’ll tell you. Laughter. I: Oh, my goodness. S: Oh-h! K: They had one or two incidents at school but, one thing about it, our blacks got the best of the white. If they got in a little fight, beat the fire out of them right there at school. I: The children fought? S: Right. K: Yes. I: Do you remember anything else like that in the community? Was there any other time when the community had to pull together, like an epidemic, tragedy, or anything like that? S: Now, I remember when Birdie's brother, they claimed, killed this white man. They used to live right out behind that house there was a little tension. And, ah, everybody got together. The men waited for the whites to start something, but nothing happened. K: I wonder if that lady out there wants something to drink. S: No, I went and asked her. She doesn't. The men got together and were all armed in case anybody came. I: The black men. S: But, like today, the white police—they're not too anxious to come to Texana. At least they've got a carful when they came. I: I see. S: Oh, yes. Kincaid 31 I: So, there was a problem with violence? S: Well, we thought that it would be, but everybody was prepared, as you said, pulling together. K: To defend ourselves if need be. S: Everybody knew, because I remember we all went to Mr. Zeb's house… the next house, not this one, the next one… the women and the children were there. But the men stayed at home with their guns, ready for anything that came along. K: But the children and women were sent to the house next door. S: Right. Didn't anything happen. I: I see. Tell me about your lives. K: My life? I: When did you marry? After the service, or…? K: After the service. We got married, I believe, in '46. S: Yes, he remembers. I: He remembers. S: Give him another round! [Laughter.] K: And we built this home in '47. This doesn't look like it look now 'cause we did some additions to it. It was just a square wooden box. S: We had was four rooms. Not a closet, not a cabinet, not anything. K: And no sheetrock either. Just look at that, we didn't have no sheetrock. Just wood. I couldn't buy Sheetrock. S: No, this was sealed with wood, and at the time we couldn't get windows. They had a place where they made windows, we had to buy the home-made windows because after the war, there was a shortage on everything. I: Oh, okay. K: And so there was a fellow that made windows. S: Yeah, there's one of them. The only one we got left is that "little window right there. Kincaid 32 I: From '47? S: Yes. Well, he just made the windows. Okay. K: Then in later years, we bought windows. And later I could buy sheetrock and I covered up the plank. It was all plank. S: It was sealed with inside sealing. I: Now, what did you do for a living when you came, after you got married? What did you do to raise your family? K: Well I went to the hospital and I learned. I was taught orderly work at the hospital. I learned this. Dr. Hoover taught me everything I know. I: Who was it? S: Dr. Hoover owned the hospital at that time. It was Petrie Hospital. K: Dr. Hoover. He owned it then, and he's dead now. He died five or six years ago. Well, anyway, I learned orderly work. I tell everybody I would that I had a dollar for every cast I helped put on a broke leg. I wish I had a dollar for every cast I sawed off a broke leg. I: What did you use to saw it off? K: Electric saw. A little saw about that big around, just like you see these skill saws men use in carpentry work only smaller? Only smaller. I: Right. K: Well, we had a little saw. It was made different from theirs, but it had a little blade on it about that big around and you sawed the cast off with it. I: And you were taught to do that by this doctor? K: That's right. And I would that I had every fracture table I had to set up to put on a body cast. I wished I had a dollar for everyone in the bank now is what I'm talkin' about. Every oxygen tent I had to set up to put those people in that had heart attacks, had to go in an oxygen tent. I would I had a dollar for every one of those I had to set up. And just to start oxygen on people, like you see now put the tubes in your nose. I: Right. K: And I had to turn the oxygen on. I: How long did you work at the hospital? Kincaid 33 K: Twenty-eight years. I: Twenty-eight years. K: Twenty-eight orderly work. S: Well, now, before that you worked at cafes. K: Yeah, I used to work at cafes before I went to the hospital. I: Doing what at the cafes? S: Washin' dishes. K: Washin' dishes, I was a dishwasher. I: Now, was that enough to support your family? S: [Laughter.] K: Well, at that time we weren't making much nohow and we had to make out. S: I worked. I: You worked? K: Yeah, she worked. The two of us worked. S: Oh, yeah. Between babies. I: How many children did you have? K: Three. I: Now, were you able to give your children a higher education? K: Yeah, they finished high school. S: Well, the same thing happened. They were still having to go away to school, after they finished the tenth grade. K: So, we sent Pat to Asheville to Stephens-Lee—Stephens-Lee high school. S: He was at Stephens-Lee for one year, and then the next year they integrated. Kincaid 34 K: They integrated and he came back here and finished high school. S: And Reese started in high school when in 64 they integrated. He had just started the ninth grade. I: Your son? S: Yes, second son. And Gwen was in the seventh grade when she started. I: Now, did any of your children go on to get a college education? S: No, but Reese, the second son, went to Kansas City and studied data processing. I: So, he learned a special skill. S: Right. I: Did your other two children have the opportunities. . .? S: Well, now Pat worked at Sears, and he had a mechanics course. He just had courses, he's never had any specialized or college. I: What did he do at Sears? S: I don't know what he did worked in the automotive department. I: Repairing cars? S: I suppose so. Because they sent him to Atlanta for mechanics course. I: What about your daughter? S: Well, Gwen's never had any special training, but she, right now, is working at a orthopedic clinic, and she runs an index machine, which is some kind of... let’s see, like they called downstairs, a chart. I: Okay. S: And any new patient that come in, she has to run this number, or chart, it’s a computer, it’s run by a computer. I: Was she trained on the job or did they send her…? S: She was trained. She's been in Memphis now for about four years. I: Is that here? Kincaid 35 S: No, in Memphis, Tennessee. I: She's in Memphis, Tennessee. Do many of the black young people leave here for better jobs? S: Oh, sure, now, I know the Mauldin children, Lucy, taught in high school in Asheville. . .two years, I guess, then she got married and they moved. And she taught in Baltimore, too, I think, when they moved there, and now she's in Atlanta. I think she's trying to get a teaching job there. I: Are more of the black children staying here today than when, say, shortly after integration? S: I would think so. I: Reverend Kincaid, have you noticed that the roles of the black persons in the community have changed? During your day, maids, porters, Are the jobs different and the roles in the community? S: I think they are. There's riot too many maids any more. There several plants now. K: They work in the bank here. Brenda used to work in the bank in the bank, but they went to Greensboro and stayed a while. Clifton Precision sent her husband there to work. They move there for a while, but they came back home. S: So now she's a secretary for a Surveying Company. I: So the jobs are different? S: Yes, oh, very much so. K: Jobs are different. And we have I: What do they make at Clifton Precision? Would that be tool and die? S: They make type of electronic devises, some of them even have to wear sterile clothes, you know. I: Oh! Uh-huh. S: So, as far as really knowing what, but I know it's electronics. I: Now, in order to work there, are the people trained on the job or do they go to Tri-County Tech, or. . .? S: Yes, on the job. So, of course, at Levi's they're trained on the job sewing and cutting. Kincaid 36 I: Reverend Kincaid, since you have been in the ministry for a number of years, would you give me an example of a religious custom that you had yesteryear and that is no longer a custom today? K: I'm trying to figure out what category. . .I guess communion. There might be a difference in the way we serve it than they did years ago. But, you see, it was a long time before I knew because I was just a young teen-ager and, ah, I didn't fool around with the church much. I: So when did you become a minister? K: Back in 1955. I went into the ministry. They don’t do, when I was a boy, they used to pass communion around. The deacons would pass it around. One would carry the bread and one would carry the tray of wine but I don't do it that way any more. I: You don't? K: No, I don't. I'll tell you the reason why. The reason why I don't do it, carry it around. The Bible say that he that drink unworthy drinks down damnation. If you drinking unworthy, you can come up here to the table I won’t take it to you. I won't. I make them walk around the communion table and take it. That's the way I do at my church. I: In the olden days, were there separate little glasses like we have? S: Yes. We've always had them. K: Yes, just like we've got now. I: And the wine? K: The wine, we pour in the little glasses and they serve it. I: Was that real wine? K: Yeah, it was real wine. So nowadays we got so people won't make wine. They used to make it out. of blackberries, years ago. S: Um-hm. And grapes. I: My grandpa was expert on that. K: I mean grapes. Used to make grape wine, and let it ferment. It had a good kick to it too. S: The women, I remember, used to make it. K: Now, people are too lazy. They run up to the store and buy wine, you know, grape wine, that's all I call it. Sometimes it's grape juice. But we buy wine. Kincaid 37 S: We use those at the liquor store, or the A & P anyway. You can buy wine. Well, what's the use of makin' it if you can go buy it? K: People have gotten so lazy, I guess you call it lazy. They've come away from what, they used to do. People used to make wine for the church. And that's what they made it for, to give it to the church to- have the sacrament with. But, like I say, I don't let my men carry wine around in the church. Bread! Now, the Bible say, he that drinks, drinks unworthy, he's drinkin' damnation to his soul. I say if anybody drinkin' unworthy in my church, he came up here and got it. I: Now, was the bread made, too, or was that S: Right. K: Bread was made, too. Now they buy it, only in a little square you just break it off. You buy it in little squares about that big. They look like windows, I call it, and you just break them off. Used to make that bread and then you break this bread. I: Like a loaf bread? K: Yeah, used to make it. No, no, it was flat S: No, it was flat. See, it didn't have any leavening in it, no baking powder, and it would be very thin. K: No bakin' powder of nothin' . . .thin as paper. S: . . .as thin as it could be, they'd just break it off, in little pieces. K: It'd just be in little cakes about like that what you made then, and we just take and break it up. We don't do that no more. They buy this bread. S: Well, you can go to the store and buy it, like a Baptist book store, or a book store, doesn't have to be a Baptist, whatever, but you can buy it. K: See, that's right. Yeah, a Baptist book store. He sell us all this stuff, see. You buy all of this stuff, already prepared, which saves time, I guess. I: During the earlier days, when you were making the bread, was there a special person in the community who had that job? K: Yeah, they's a special person in the community. . . S: Deacon's wife. I remember the deacon's wife use to make the wine. K: Used to have to be the deacon's wife. Just as it is now, see. Kincaid 38 I: And the deacons would make the wine? K: Um-hm, that's right. S: This one I remember is the deacon's wife. I: Who was this person? S: It was Miss Lily Sudderth. She used to make the wine, and I guess she made the bread, too. I know Bessie used to make the bread, too. It's not the matter that they're lazy. It's the matter that you can go to the store and buy it. K: And buy the same thing. S: We used to make bread, too. K: Yeah! S: But it's not the matter that I'm lazy—'cause I guess I make more bread than anybody else. But, anyway, if you go to the store and buy it, what's the use of making it. I: What other changes do you remember, Reverend Kincaid? K: Let's see, they used to turn people out of church. Let me say it on this. When I was a teen-ager-in my teens or in my twenties, let's put it that way, somewhere in that age, I remember, if you didn't do or live right, they'd turn you out of the church. But they don't do that now, because they lean more to the Bible. The Bible say, let the wheat and the tares go up together and I'll do the separatin'. I: Who made the decision to turn them out? S: The deacons. K: The deacons and the pastor. I: Well, would you give us an example of an activity that caused the person to be turned out? S: Ah, well! I: She's got one, I can tell. S: Dancing! Anything, I mean any little old silly thing like that. K: If you were caught drinkin', dancin', anything like that, they would turn you out of the church. Having a baby out of wedlock. Kincaid 39 I: Could you get back in? S: Yes. K: You could get back in? I: What did you have to do to get back in? K: You had to straighten up make an acknowledgement. S: You go and make an acknowledgement that you sinned and you're sorry. K: But, see, we don't do that anymore, because on account of what the Bible says. I believe people are a little bit more used to the Bible than what they used to be years ago. S: More enlightened. K: More enlightened—let me put it that way, more enlightened than they were years ago. You don't see anyone turn anyone from the church now, and fellowship from them. They don't do that anymore, because we go by what the Bible says about the wheat and the tares grow up together and I’ll do the separating. That's the Bible. So we'll let Jesus Christ do the separating. It may not be in this life, but in the life to come, He says he's going to separate the sheep from the goats. That's what He said. S: Something else I remember is the way they used to do women in the church. They felt like a woman didn't have any say in anything. K: That's right. S: voice at all. She wasn't supposed to say a word. K: That's right, but I'm not that way. I let my women have as much voice as the menfolks in my church. S: That's right, but they weren't supposed to say anything, or anything she could do about it. But it's not that way now. I: So if a woman disagreed with whatever the deacon decided. U: My grandmother was a member of the old regular Baptist Church, and they even decreed that the women didn't cut their hair, and so my grandmother never cut her hair. S: Right! Kincaid 40 I: Did you ever practice the washing of the feet? K: That's something I've never done. I guess I should do it, but I've never tried it. I told my church here not too long ago about that. I said we ought to sometime, we oughta sometime just take a night out and wash one another's feet. It's a custom that's never been carried out down through the ages here. As I said, but we're sort of leaving that to the individual. You go see someone sick and he needs a bath you jump in there and bathe him and wash his feet too. And, as far as washing feet there's a lot of white ministers around here that wash feet they have asked me if ever did that and say you ought to try it sometime. That's just washin' the feet. S: Now, it didn't say nothing about washing the body, it’s like when you have communion, you don’t go to eat. K: No, you don't go to eat. You supposed to eat at home. S: You just take that communion, and same thing goes for the foot washing, I would think. K: Just wash your feet a little bit. I've never did that. I don't know whether it would be held against me or not, but I just never have. He said, You ought to. That's what Christ said, but He didn't say… he didn't make a command that you do it. He said, but ye ought to, as I have done you, washed your feet. Say you.ought to. In other words, you don't think enough of your fellow man to was his feet. But, see, reason why this happened in Christ's day they didn't have shoes to wear. They wore sandals, and that's why it was the custom to wash people's feet when they come to your house. I: Right. K: We don't have to. You make somebody take his shoes off now to wash his feet, it'd make him mad, he'd leave and never come back no more. S: I still think it was an act of humility, too, when they did it back Christ's day. I: Okay. Let's back up a little bit more. You remembered quite a bit about World War II. What other period in history stands out in your mind? K: Let's see about that. I: Has there been a movement that has brought about a great change? S: Okay, think, for instance, the same cafe that you worked at, at that time, if you worked there, if you came to get a hamburger, you had to go to the back door. K: Oh, you told me, oh well, let me just say, then, sure, if that's what you're talking about, way back then, I guess. Kincaid 41 S: No, she said what change. You don't have to do that, you can go sit down now and order like anyone else. K: Yeah. I remember I worked in the cafe, I didn't have no problem eating a hamburger, I was already working there. [Laughter.] S: But you were in the kitchen. You couldn't go out front and eat a hamburger. K: But people, blacks—that came in. Now, this is one thing I'll say about Murphy. I don't know what other towns ever had. But Murphy's always had a place to eat in the back. You come in there to eat. You had a table over there you sat in the back. And they'd fix you a hamburger and french fries, and you could sit over there and eat it. But now, see, we don't have to do that. In a drug store, you don't have to buy your ice cream and go out on the street and eat it. You sit down if you want to. 'Course, now it's different. You got the ice cream place. S: Sweet Tooth, they call it here. Place where only ice cream is sold. K: Yeah, Sweet Tooth, it's called. And you don't go in there no how. You go up to the window. That's as far as you, everybody, black or white, goes up to the windows. And, used to, when I was a kid, the white sat at the counters at the drug store, they ate ice cream sitting down. If you were black you could go get a cone but you had got to go out on the street to eat it. But that's not true today. I: What other historical events such as the first space.. first flight in space. What did you think about that? K: Ah, that's all right. Since then they’ve had blacks… I: Do you think God meant for that to be? K: Well, here's what He said. He gave man dominion over everything… S: in the earth. He didn't say a word about outer space. K: Didn’t say anything about upstairs. He didn't say anything about man to conquer space. He didn't say anything about that. Which men are going up and doing. They haven’t conquered it yet, but they are trying. And I believe God is getting tired, just like it was in the days of old, when they gunna build a tower from Earth to Heaven. God got tired to that mess, caused the language to be changed, and they got so high, when they send down and asked them to send brick they'd send up mortar. When they needed mortar they send down "Send us mortar," and it'd get down to the bottom and in place of mortar they sent brick. God I believe is getting tired of this mess up yonder. I guess that’s why we have no rain. The other thing I believe, when people didn’t do right, the world got filled with wickedness, God got tired and sent something or another to destroy a man. He sent all kind of insects to work a man over from doing his wicked things. And I believe today we heading the same thing about this dry weather we having. You know, God sent a famine one time. His children got so bad wouldn’t serve Him and he sent a famine. Kincaid 42 He made it so tough, made it tough on everything. That’s why he said the good will reap the same as the wicked. Same that happens to the wicked will happen to the good. I believe the same thing is happening now. What we're havin' now, all this hot weather and no rain, God is trying to tell man something. This dry spell we’re having. Nothing hardly to feed cattle. And yet in Biblical days God sent a famine, and cattle were so hungry wantin' water and food, they hollered all night long, day and night, and man couldn't rest, being no peace with the cattle hollering. I believe He's going do the same thing if America, and the whole united states of America, everywhere the whole world. The world doesn't straighten up. I believe this is a famine that he’s showing us. That’s getting ready to come on to us. And I said this, somebody said well I hate it for the farmers and I said well I bet them farmers ae going to have all these big farms I bet they never went to church on Sundays. They still got to fool with them cattle on Sundays. [tape glitch] I: Could you give me an example of a person in the community who was considered a leader, in your teen-age or younger years? What did this person do? K: [Tape glitch] Uncle James Fullwood and I consider him a great leader because he was a superintendent of Sunday School for about 27 or 30 years, and that was an old man James Fullwood. Another thing I loved about him, I don’t teach that school anymore. He would teach us how to pronounce words in the Sunday School. He showed us a letter, a long mark over the top, a curve, he could see all of those. That stood out to me more than anything. He was a great leader in our community. And, course, he was for the upbuilding. And that was one leader, I considered to be a great leader. Of course, I'm not counting ministers, I'm just tryin' to name individuals, just what we might say common people. Let me see… I: What about the teachers? S: Fess, Professor George Lewis Henry. K: Yeah, Fess. He's Professor Henry. He's dead. He was a great teacher. To me, I s'pose he was one of the greatest, but there's one thing about him. When he taught you anything, it was up to you to learn it. He'd see that you learned. S: Oh, yeah. K: That's right. And there's one thing about it. He'd take time every morning after devotion exercise were over, the first thing we'd start out was our writing, how to write. Had all those letters on the black board, which we had to learn how to make them right. He taught Palmer writing. S: Well, it's still cursive. K: I don’t’ know what kind of writing they do in school now, but they write different than what we used to write. They make the letters different than what we write now. So it was called palmer writing in my day and they taught it. You had a book you had to learn it out of. I don’t Kincaid 43 know what they teach now. But I have a lot of people now, I write my name, they look at it and say lord you do palmer writing. I’ve had that said to me many time. You see, that's all I was taught in school. So this is the kind of writin' Professor Henry taught us in school. I: So, a church leader and a teacher. Is that still true today? K: It should be but it's not. S: Not necessarily. K: It's not true. It should be, but you have so many teachers now that won't even go about church. [Laughter] I: Well who would you consider to be a leader in the community today? S: Frank Suddarth was one if there ever was one. K: Yeah, there was a man. Deacon Frank Suddarth. He was a great leader in the community. Well, he was for the upbuilding of everything in the community, matter of fact. Frank Sudderth, myself, my brother Joe Kincaid, Deacon, Nathanial Carter. Gibson [inaudible], he’s dead now. We got this water to this community. Only black community that owns their own water system. I: Is that still true? K: It’s still true right now. As far as, I don’t know any in the direction [inaudible] but I’m talking about… I: Right here in Texana? K: Yeah, we are the first blacks to owned our own water system, it took some hard work out of us. About seven of us. It took a lot of writing, a lot of meetings to get water here in our community. See, we're out of the city limits, and we bought the school house property and the well that furnished the school water. We got this loan through FHA, and we put a water system all the way through the whole community so the whole community would benefit -by it. Used to have springs we carried water from, but We got busy when they closed our school down here and integrated. We bought the school property—and the well. The school board intended for us to have the school property. There was some fellow wanting to put some kind of a plant in the school building. And they wouldn't let him have it. Sold it to us. S: But they intended for us to have it. I: So, the school was sold to the black community? S: Right, by the school board. I: What has become of that school? Kincaid 44 S: They tore it down and put this community building up. K: Already set up a tank, big tank now and everything there. We needed some money, so we went through the FHA. We got a great loan from FHA, enough to buy pipe and have pipes put through this whole community. Everyone has water S: That's just the water line. K: And then—that's just the water line—but then the well went bad on us, went dry. We buy water from the town now. The town ran a line from their city line up to our community. Because our well went dry after about ten years. So many families on it and so much dynamiting all around putting a sewer line in, the dynamite must have hit a vein somewhere and 'caused our well water to go down. S: That's when they put in the sewage that turned the water line. K: Uh, we got the water system in then, but I'm tryin' to get down to the sewer. We got the water system in. It lasted for about ten years, or twelve, somewhere along there. Then, the sewage system the town had a grant, but it wasn't enough to build their library that they have now, and they decided, since everybody with a home over here owned a septic tank. Every home. I own one myself. At that time, every home owned a septic tank. The town then got together and said, it was through the state Board of Health, said there was too many septic tanks. S: No, it was on account of the rock. K: In one community. S: This place is rocky. K: They were scared it might cause some kind of disease. And they got together, since the town had a grant given to them that wasn’t enough money for them to do what they wanted to do, but they had to get rid of the money. So they gave us their grant, half a million dollars is what it was, to put this sewage system here. Through the grant the town had. And that's how the sewage system got through here, with so many septic tanks through here if you don't keep a septic tank cleaned out and fixed up right, you may cause, some kind of bad health problem. Too many septic tanks in one community. And that's why we got the sewage system through here. I: So, there was a small group of men who led? K: Yeah. S: Now that Frank has gone and. the others— K: Frank's gone… Kincaid 45 I: …who would be considered a, leader today, besides yourself? K: Well, we still got a group over the water system, I'd have to put them in, I guess. There's J. D. Jackson… I: Is that a committee or just K: Committees. S: Water Board of persons, male and female. K: Water Board Committee. You have to collect water bills in order to pay FHA and pay the town for the water we use. Each house has a meter. I: Right. K: We have a committee over the water system to do the collectin' and writin' up the water bills. And send out our water bills every month. S: And water. K: The town gets paid for the water system and the sewage system. The town gets paid $4 a month—well, they had to raise it; it was $4 a month, but it's gone up now to around $5-6 a month now, just for the sewage system. I: Right. [Glitch in tape] S: Was 8th of August 'cause they said the 4th of July had nothing to do with Negroes 'and the 8th of August did. Now, I don't remember what it was. If I had the time I would look it up. I: Do you remember that in history. The 8th of August? K: Well, we don't celebrate no 4th of July here. I mean, not in our community. They used to years ago because they didn't understand. S: But then they would always have something to do on the 8th of August. I: Like, for example, what would you do? S: Oh, we would go to the school up here, and they'd bring the piccolo they used to have a little juke joint down here they'd bring it up to the school. And that's the only time we ever really felt free, 'cause, you know kids didn't go around and get to go to places like they do now. They go anyplace they want to, but we couldn't. So that's one day that we would play ball… I K: Play games… Kincaid 46 S: And sack races and all that kinda stuff. And dance all we wanted to with the piccolo up there. I: And that sounds like fun. But you don't remember… S: It was fun! I: You don't remember why the 8th was celebrated? S: I can't remember why, but the 8th had something to do with Negroes, but the 4th of July didn't. I: Okay. Was it the day of the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation? K: Proclamation, that's it. S: Right, right. Now, I know what's what the 4th of July was, but, now, as far as… what effect did that have on Negroes? I: Okay, well, we'll do our homework and find out what August 8th is. S: Okay? Yeah, I haven't thought about looking it up to see what the 8th of August meant as far as Negroes were concerned. But, now, we always had something on the 8th of August, too. I: Can you think of any other days like that, any other celebrations? S: They used to have what they call now Memorial Day, the 30th of May, or whatever, when everybody got together and cleaned off the graveyard and decorated… well, they called it Decoration Day. And that custom is about played out now as far as we're concerned. I: And that was in honor of the dead. S: Right. K: We have what we call Black History Month once every year in February. S: Well, that's something that didn't happen back when we were growing up. I: Now, can you think of any other customs? S: And I think of school closings. Now, when I went to school, we had a whole week of school closing. We had plays, we had drills, minstrel… did you ever see a minstrel. K: Minstrel, minstrel. I: Minstrel? Musical? Kincaid 47 S: Yes. You know, black face. I: At Murphy? S: No in Texana school before integration. We had a whole week of school closing. We had a| banquet, and that was for, I forgot what age, [7 through 9th grade] but I remember the girls wore evening gowns. And, of course, the boys usually wore dark coats and white pants or whatever they could afford. I: Was it perhaps like a graduation party? S: Right. I guess like what they have is a prom now. But it didn't mean the 11th and 12th grade. I: Even the little girls had special dresses? S: No, not I don't think that they had too many little girls. Like I say, maybe from 7th or the 8th and 9th grade. That took care of one night. Okay, there was a minstrel one night, and maybe little short skits. There was a drill—oh, we marched, we plaited the May Pole, and all that kinda stuff. I: With crepe paper or cloth? S: I believe we had crepe paper un-huh. I: Was there ever a May… S: May Day. No, I don't remember ever. We did this at school closing. And then one night on Friday night it would be the main big three-act play that you did from memory. You had to memorize your part. K: That's right. Had to do that from memory. I: Now was the teacher in charge of all these activities? S: Right, Professor Henry. I: And so that was the Friday night? S: That's when the main big [theatrical] play came off, on Friday night. That was the last of it. I: And that was how you closed school? S: Right, form Monday through Friday—nights. K: Don't have that any more. Kincaid 48 S: No. K: It's all gone. Well, that's all the way you had things then. They didn't like they, have now. Too many other things goin' on. [tape glitch] S:…as children, when someone was sick in the community, the neighbors would go and they would stay there at this house until this person got better or died. Now we don't have time to go see the sick. And 'course they didn't have a whole lot of hospitals back in those days. The people stayed at home when they were sick. K: That's right, had no hospitals back in those days. . . Stayed home sick—had nowhere else to go but home. S: And I can remember when we used to go just to visit. We'd go and spend the night. They'd make pallets on the floor and we'd sleep on the floor and have the best time in the world. And get up on Sunday morning, they'd go out and catch a chicken and pick it and cook it. We don't do anymore. I: Would it be fair to say that the neighborhood was a lot closer. S: Right. K: That's right. Prosperity has pulled us apart. S: I don't know whether it was! prosperity or not. K: I do. S: We're too… I think in terms like this. Okay. We've got all this push-button stuff, washing machines, dryers, you don't have to iron, 'cause I don’t iron anything but his handkerchiefs any more [laughter], and electric stoves, refrigerators. Yet we don’t have time to go and visit like we used to do. I: And it seems like it should be opposite if everything is push button and you have time to go and visit. S: Right. And then you rush, rush rush. Everything is rush, rush, rush. Still you don't have any time. I: For your fellow man. I: I don't understand that. I think mostly it's selfishness. We go where we want to go. We do what we want to do. Kincaid 49 I: Ah, exactly. I agree with that. S: And if we wanted to go visit we would go visit. We don't want to. We're thinking only of ourselves. 'cause I remember when they had a flu epidemic one time. We were living over here. My aunt went to Notla. I'd say about three miles down 64 west and she stayed with her cousin and her mother and until they got better, when she came home we all had the flu. [Laughter] And there was an old lady that came and stayed with us, while she went. Miss Tate. K: Every day. S: There were some women, like two or three women, that would go to this house where they’d stay a week or they’d go over here and stay two weeks. They had a home, each home welcomed them. I: But they went S: But they just went-- I: Do you remember their names? S: Aunt Josie Fain. K: Aunt Josie Fain used to come to our house. S: Aunt Josie Fain used to stay with you all a lot also. K: She would come down and stay with us two weeks at a time. S: And this lady named Miss Emma Tate used to stay with us a lot. Well, Aunt Josie would come and stay with us a week or two too. That's just the way they did. Now, I wonder what would happen today, and they were older, who would take them in. Any time they got ready, they came. They stayed as long as they wanted to, and they left. They'd go someplace else and stay. They had a home. I: And their primary reason for coming to your home, for example… S: Because they wanted to, no reason. I: And they were just welcome. S: Right. I: You mentioned the flu epidemic. S: Oh, that was, let's see. I don't know how old I was. And know, in the fall, my aunt worked for a druggist, and he would give her pure white liquor. She would take it and dissolve Smith Kincaid 50 Brothers cough drops in it and rock candy. She would make camphor out of it. She'd get camphor stick at the drug store and dissolve it in liquor. Of course that was to rub with. And the cough drops in the liquor and hard candy--rock candy, they called it. Okay, that was for the flu, I remember when she came home she gave me about three tablespoonsful of that, and I got out of bed that night. I: [Laughter.] Did you get it? S: I don't remember much of that. But it cured my flu. And I remember we used to have to drink, if we had a cold, pine top tea. I: Right. S: Boneset, and, what was that other, lion's tongue, they called it. All this was dried. K: Yellow root. S: Now, I never was used to yellow root. K: I don't know what yellow root looks like now. S: I don't know either. I never was used to that. K: When I was a kid, I remember we used to make it for tea. And it was right yellow looking. It was a root, they'd go dig it up somewhere. S: Yeah, it was yellow. They say that's good for your stomach now. You went out somewhere and got some pine needles made the tea. K: Break limbs out of a pine tree there or bush and made tea. S: Right, and that was for colds. And the boneset--bitter! And then every so often we'd have to have a run of castor oil. [Laughter]. And the one that took it the best got the biggest piece of candy afterwards. I: Oh! I see. [Laughter.] S: And this is something else I remember. See, we had no radios. We did have an old hand turned Victrola. Still have it. I: Right. S: And at night, to amuse us, my aunt used to tell us stories. I: Did she? Kincaid 51 S: Yes. I: What kind of stories? S: The one I remember most is this cow and her calf, and the little calf was named Nellie. And the wolf wanted the little calf. So, the mother goes off to graze and leaves the little calf, and here comes the wolf. And he'd say, [singing] “Come, little Nellie. Come, little Nellie. I want some calico." And she'd say, "You're not my mother." And he'd leave. So he had his tongue filed until he could say it just like the calf's mother. So, little Nellie came out and the wolf ate her. So all the animals got together and said, "We gonna build this big fire and whoever ate Nellie..” "Everybody's goin' have to jump across this fire." So when whoever ate little Nellie would fall right in the fire. So all the animals ran and they jumped across the fire, till the wolf came by and jumped and he fell right into the middle of the fire and out came little Nellie! I: Oh, ho! Laughter. And what was you aunt's name. S: Agnes. Carter. I: Agnes Carter. She was a storyteller? S: Well, she just told us stories. We played Jack in the Bush, have you ever heard of Jack in the Bush? I: No. S: When the chestnuts, these were wild chestnuts or chinquapins. These were wild too and you'd put some in your hand I: Yeah, which hand? S: "Jack in the Bush, I would say how many times." And if you said four and I had five you would have to give me four or something, or if it was less, you'd have to give me whatever the difference was, one way or another. I: Right. K: Let me explain this to her and then I'm gonna hush. I'm talked out. I think I've told about all. Before we had electricity. I remember the first music box we had was, course we had the old crankin machine. And then when we could buy a radio. It had batteries, and they wouldn't last but six months. The batteries were pretty good size. It would last about 6 months. That was before electricity come into the home in this community. I don't know exactly how old, what· age, but I was a teenager when they put electricity through here. And after that then we bought an electric radio, plug it in the wall. We used to own a radio… I: run by a battery. Now, did the family sit around and listen to this? Kincaid 52 S: Right, right. K: We loved it, ‘specially on a Saturday night, the Grand Ole Opry, and that's when it was still going on. Uncle Dave Macon, I remember all of those. And I remember when Roy Acuff. I: Mother Maybell Carter? K: I remember when they were just, they musta been young people in that day, in their twenties or thirties because they're old, old people now. And I remember all that, down through the years, I remember the first thing we ever owned, that was a music box, not counting the Victrola, was a radio and like I say, the battery would last just about 6 months. You couldn’t have it charge like a car battery. You would throw that away and go buy another. Then this community, I was a teen-ager, in my teens was when they put the lights thought this community and we began to buy radios that run off of electricity and you plug in the wall. I: Speaking of lights, can I take your picture by that one over there, by the lamp on the wall? S: sure. K: I don't mind. I: All right. K: You got to give me one though. I: Okay. That's a fair deal. K: Let's see. now, I been workin' and my shirt's dirty as the devil. How you want me to stand? I: can you get closer to it? K: Yeah, I can get closer. Is that too close? I: No, that's fine. S: Uh, what I'm saying is, we made our own amusement. We played Jack in the Bush, we played club fist. Have you ever played club fist? I: Oh, like S: Yeah, somethin' else we used to play we had to carry each other on our back, and I've forgotten what that was. And Mom and Daddy, they'd be going to town. "I'm going to town, whatcha want me to bring you?" and then we'd have to guess somehow. It was a guessin' game. I: I'm taking a couple just to make sure they turn out. Can you reach up like you're adjusting it or something like that. Kincaid 53 K: No, I take it off and do the wick. I: Okay. S: It was a guessing game about what mama was going to bring? [obscured by other talk] Yeah, something to that effect, I've forgotten how that one was. But, what I'm saying is, that's all we had but we were satisfied with it. And also, the girls knew how to embroider, knit, some of em… I never did learn to knit or crochet till I got grown. But I knew how to embroider. In fact, we learned that at school and then we did at home. And then you learned how to cook. At our house when you were 14 years old you took over the kitchen and did the cooking. K: Now, I think I've told you everything that I know to tell. I've told so much I don't know what I have told and what I ain't told. S: But they don't do that nowadays. And you were too busy to get into too much trouble you had work to do even when you come from school. We had to carry water. When he was talkin' 'bout the brush they'd build the fires around the washpot. We had to see that there was always plenty of brush for kindling besides building the fire under the washpot. K: I can tell her this that come to mind. I remember one time we was hoein'--I don't know what age we were, and a big copperhead bit my brother on the heel. I: Ooh! What did you do for it? K: We had some people, white people, livin' way down below us, we were rentin' a house at this time. And they run up he, and we always did have a yard full of chickens, and they grabbed a baby chicken and split it open, and laid it on his heel. And they had a half a bottle of turpentine, took the top off the turpentine, they just turned it down over the snake bite, and you could see that poison coming up into that turpentine, until they got the doctor. They had to run get the doctor, o'course. The doctor had a car, I don't know whether it was a T-model Ford. Back then you didn't see many cars. Not too many people owned a car, unless he was a doctor or something like that. I remember the doctor came. I don't know what all he did to my brother, but he left a lot of pills. My brother was awful sick and they put him in the bed, he was awful sick, and he took these pills and he got over the snake bite. Of course we killed the snake right on the scene, a big copperhead. Gee, he was lucky. END OF INTERVIEW

Harvey J. Kincaid is interviewed by Lorraine Crittenden on August 13, 1986 as part of the Western North Carolina Tomorrow Black Oral History Project. His wife, Sadie (1923 or 1924-) is also present and comments throughout the interview. Born in 1917, Kincaid discusses extended family members and growing up on a farm in Murphy, North Carolina. He and his wife talk about community leaders, communion practiced in church services, and different celebrations such as Memorial Day and minstrel parties. Kincaid describes his experience serving in the Army in the Philippines during World War II. He recalls segregation of troops, bombings, and race relations when he returned to the United States. He mentions working for the hospital after the war for 28 years and becoming a minister. Kincaid and Sadie also discuss the integration of schools in Murphy during the period of desegregation.

• Creator
  • Kincaid, Harvey J., 1917-1989
• Contributor
  • Crittenden, Lorraine
• Format
  • Sound recordings
  • Transcripts
  • Interviews
• Type
  • Sound
  • Text
• Date
  • Date interview: 1986-08-13
  • Date: 1920s; 1930s; 1940s; 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s;
  • Date digitized: 2018-03-29
• Extent
  • Duration: 1:57:30 (sound recording)
  • Duration: 53 pages (transcript)
• Subject - Topic
  • African American families
  • African American veterans
  • African Americans
  • African Americans -- Religion
  • African Americans -- Social life and customs
  • Autobiography
  • Kincaid, Harvey J., 1917-1989
  • North Carolina, Western -- Race relations -- History -- 20th century
  • School integration -- North Carolina, Western
  • World War, 1939-1945 -- Personal narratives
  • World War, 1939-1945 -- Veterans
• Location
  • Cherokee County (N.C.)
  • North Carolina, Western
• Source institution
  • Western Carolina University
• Source Collection
  • Western North Carolina Tomorrow Black Oral History Project
• Identifier
  • HL_MSS98-03_Crittenden_Kincaid_1986-08-13
• Repository
  • Western Carolina University Hunter Library