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  • MHC_Lower_Owen_2000-05-23_transcript

Owen 1 Lloyd Owen Mountain Heritage Center Agriculture Project Interviewee: Lloyd Owen Interviewer: Emily Lower Location: Whittier, NC Date: May 23, 2000 Duration: 1:17:35 Emily Lower: This is tap C00-4 for the Mountain Heritage Center Agriculture project. Today is May 23. This is Emily Lower I’ll be interviewing Lloyd Owen in his home in Whittier. LO: ...tobacco in this country, I've heard the older people, heard my Daddy talk about it and my grandparents. Back over a hundred years ago, back in the 1880s, I guess, 1890s they had a market in Asheville. That's where they sold it and it brought a good price. Then all of sudden the market just collapsed and the price went so low and the market so low that had to ship their flue-cured tobacco to up to Virginia somewhere I think to sell it. Maybe Richmond, Virginia, and it wouldn't bring enough to pay the freight on it. And then there's Burley right here in this community in this country here. I don't think there was any Burley ever raised in Jackson County until maybe about 1920s. Over in Haywood County and Buncombe County and Madison county and back in that area, they was growing it a long time over there before it was every raised here in Jackson County. I'd say from 1920s was when the first Burley was grown in Jackson County. And there was a lot grown here during the 30s and the 40s and the 50s and on up into the 60s. Now it's about gone. Not much left. EL: That’s what I've heard. When did your family, start growing Burley instead of...? LO: The first I ever grew? EL: Yeah. LO: My Daddy, when I was just old enough to work, we helped my Daddy you see. He started growing Burley tobacco…I think the first crop he ever grew was in the early 30s about 1932. Course at that time, I was born in '25. I wasn't big enough to do any work until up in the late 30s but I knew about it in the early 30s. And he grew tobacco during the 30s and the 40s and on through the 50s and up in the early 60s before he retired from it and didn't grow anymore. The market was at Asheville. Sometimes he'd take his tobacco to Tennessee over to a market in Knoxville. A lot of people around here used to go to Tennessee with their tobacco and sell it over there because it brought a better price in Tennessee than it did in Asheville. When the market conditions in Asheville improved, then they started going to Asheville with it and Asheville grew Owen 2 into a big market over there. Whenever the acreage control came along, a lot of people didn’t have much acreage. When my Daddy first started growing tobacco, anybody could grow it, as much as you wanted to. There was no acreage control or poundage control at all. If you wanted to put out ten acres or I 00 acres or whatever, you could do it because nobody grew that much around here. And then when they put the acreage controls on it back in the late 30s, why each tobacco grower could only grow so much, you see, the government told you how much you could grow. The farmers voted for it, I mean they put it on themselves. It wasn’t just slapped on them. But that did that for to hold the price up you see so it wouldn’t be the market wouldn't be flooded Then for several years after the acreage control · course this went on in the 30s, it was on the acreage and each farmer could grow so many tenths of an acre or an acre or half-acre or whatever you had on small farmers on his own land and of course he could rent land from his neighbors if he wanted to. But it had to be grown on his neighbor’s land what he rented. Then in the early 70s they threw away the acreage and went to poundage. You know you could grow so many pounds. And you could lease your neighbor’s acreage in pounds and bring it to your place and grow it on your own place. So, that's the way it is now. It's been changed some you know over the last 30 years. I think those poundage controls went into effect about 1974 I believe... along about that time. It went from acreage quotas to poundage quotas. That's what it is now, you know. The government of course oversaw that. The government control is what it was and they guarantee a price for the tobacco for as long as you had controls on. That's the way it is now. EL : Yeah. I think I just heard about. The other person I talked to recently was Philip Hedden he's one of the extension agents now for Jackson County. He's not from Jackson County. He's originally from Macon but he was talking about what you just said. The government control. The acreage quotas were in the 30s, you said. LO: Yeah, yeah. EL: And the poundage in the '70s. So was there any kind of change during the war? LO: During the war? EL: Yeah. LO: No, there was no change in the quotas at all during the war. You see this, this a…I mentioned about my Daddy, whenever he first, the first tobacco he raised I think was in 1932, well right around here. And of course, they'd grown Burley tobacco over here in Tennessee for years and years and years, you know and in Kentucky, too, a lot of it. And they'd grown a lot in Haywood County, and Buncombe County, and Madison County, and those, Yancey County and those counties back over in that area. But I believe the first Burley tobacco ever raised in Jackson County was probably in the 1920s. I think that would be correct. There was no controls on it then at all, anybody that could grow it grew it and you could have as much as you wanted to. Then in the 30's under Franklin Roosevelt's new deal program you know, when all these government programs went into effect, well they, I guess well I know it's the federal Owen 3 government, agriculture department, they wanted the farmers to put controls on the amount of tobacco they was growing. And they voted of course to do that. The farmers voted for it, I mean the government didn't just clamp it on them. And then whenever those controls went off, I'd say in probably about 1937 along that time, why each farmer that had a acreage quota. Some of them had down 2 or 3 tenths of an acre, or maybe 3 or 4 tenths of an acre, or half acre, 5 tenths, and most people around if they had an acre it was a pretty good quota. There wasn't many people had over an acre cause it's all small ...all small quotas. Then those acres, like I said a while ago, those acreage quotas stayed on until early 1970s and then they threw the acreage controls out and put in the poundage controls. Instead of having so many tenths of an acre or half-acre or acre, why then you had so many pounds you could produce on your place. And you could go over here and lease your neighbors poundage and bring it to your place, you see, and incorporate it into your poundage. You didn't have to grow it on his place, his property. And that's the way it is now. EL: So how much land did your, is this your family property you are on right now? LO: Yeah. EL: And how much acreage would you dad have been growing tobacco on? LO: When he first started? EL: Yes, when he first started. LO: Well he had more property then he had later on. He had about I 00 acres when he first started growing tobacco. He had about 100 acres’ land and I think the first crop he grew was about I believe about an acre and half because there were no controls on it, you know. The government didn't have anything to do with it. It's just like somebody growing beans or corn or anything else. Then when the controls went on why he had about an acre. Then they started cutting him down, cutting him down, cutting him down. He finally got cut down till where he only had about 6 or 7 tenths of an acre was all he could grow. And so, it was very small acreage. EL: So would he have been raising other crops to... I mean I'm just wondering if ....how much tobacco was bringing in for income. LO: Oh he had some cattle and then he had other crops too. But that tobacco was a very important crop for small farmers in this country you know because they could always sell it. And they could always, you know it was a cash crop. It was very important. It played a big part in the economy of the small farmer here in this country. EL: So I guess I'm curious, you know, he started with flue-cured tobacco and I know that's more grown in the Piedmont or east now and I wonder why he might have chosen or other farmers Owen 4 might have chosen to grow that here? Do you need… I was understanding that you might need warmer climate or not for flue-cured? LO: Well, yeah ... it ah .... I don't know a whole lot about flue-cured tobacco but that what they always grew down in the eastern part of North Carolina and in South Carolina and in Georgia. See, it has to be cured with heat, you know, they had those tobacco barns and they built a big fire in the furnace and then there were flues, stove-pipes running all through the barn. Then the tobacco would cure I think they could cure a barn of tobacco maybe in about 48 hour or something like that. And Burley is air­cured. You just hang it up in a barn and let nature really cure it. It takes about six weeks to cure Burley. And, they did grow some flue-cured tobacco in the country way back a hundred years ago, over a hundred years ago cause I've heard the old people talk about it. And my Daddy said when they moved here, they moved here from Haywood County, in 1905 and he said they were several flue-cured tobacco barns standing around here. Old log barns, built out of logs that had been used maybe 25-30 years before that. But, they said the price went so low the market just collapsed and you didn't make enough out of it to even pay you for even fooling with it. So, it just disappeared. EL: Do you know, I mean I know you haven't grown flue-cured tobacco, but I was wondering if that process of curing it if it takes more time do one or the other. If Burley since you just cut it. ... LO: Oh yeah. The flue-cured required a whole lot more time and work than. You see they had to pull the leaves off the stalk on flue-cured. You know, go out in the tobacco fields and break the leaves off the stalk. Then they had to be put on a stick and hung in this. And then they run heat on it for I believe it was about 48 hours somebody told me. That's all I know just what I've been told. Then it was cured. Then they would take it out and put in some more. Well Burley when you harvested it you just cut the stalk off right about the top of the ground and spear it onto a stick-six plants on a stick. EL: Sticks about that long? LO: No, sticks about 40" long. You put six plants, six tobacco plants on a stick. Then you hang that in a barn and in about six week, it would be cured. Then it was ready to work up... to go to market. EL: So, during the time it was curing, it was just drying, did you have to watch for insects or anything like that at that time? LO: No, no. When you put it into the barn, it was finished until you started working it up for the market. No insects bothered it in the barn. Now it could get, after it was hung in the barn if it came a cold snap and temperatures went down real low it could freeze it and that would ruin it. But usually that didn't happen. Owen 5 EL: When is tobacco usually harvested or is there a certain time? LO: Yeah, it was set out long about this time of year. The plants beds were sowed in the late winter, early spring in February/March. And then those plants were taken out of the plant beds and transplanted in the fields, you see. And that took place long about this time of year, about the middle of May to about the middle of June usually. About a 30 day period there from the 15th of May to about the 15th of June that's when it was transplanted out of the beds, the plant beds into the field. Then it would be ready to harvest anywhere from about the 20th of August till about the middle of September. Most people harvested from the 20th of August to about the middle of September and then that was the end of the growing season. Then it took about six weeks to cure in the barn and then they start working it up to getting it ready for the market. The leaves have to be stripped off the stalks. They bale it now in a bale but back several years ago they was tying it with hands what you call hands-bunch of tobacco leaves all together then tie a leaf around the top and then tobacco. Then that was back when those baskets...did you ever see those baskets that went to the market? Well they were about like that and that was back when the baskets you'd have a big basket of tobacco about that high and that was the way it went to the market. EL: So, the baskets are like 3 or 4 feet long and 4 feet high? LO: The baskets? EL: Yeah. LO: Well they was just flat that didn't even have sides on them, you see. They were elevated about that much, but they were woven out of oak splits, split oak. And they were about that square and they have a little...kind of like...they were like a saucer, you know with the edge turned up about this far around them. And hands of tobacco were packed on there round and round and round just kept going up you see and they'd be round like that this. But they don't do that anymore. It's baled now. They put it a baler and baled in bales and it's much faster and easier too. EL: How old were you when you first started helping your Dad? LO: Oh, probably about 10 years old I guess. I wasn't doing any heavy work but I was work some, you know. EL: So, were you going to school and you helped him like before and after school? LO: Yeah, yeah. Well in the summertime, you see, when school was out yeah. EL: That's true. Owen 6 LO: That's the way they used to do it and that tobacco it played a big part in the economy of this country because a lot of people depended on it for money. And it's...but it's about disappeared now. I don't know of anybody in Jackson County that's growing any tobacco except Shelton over there. There maybe one or two more but I don't know who they would be. EL: Yeah, I don't know about this county either. I haven't heard. I do know I was out visiting some folks in Swain County, well I was just in the area and there were some men talking about setting some plants out there, but probably not too much. LO: No I don't know, you see Shelton is in Jackson County. And that's about the only I know of. Clarence Hall, I don't guess you know him, Clarence Hall used to live up on Green's Creek and he used to grow a lot of tobacco up there, but he don't grow anymore. Then there was some raised up there on... around Cullowhee and on Caney Fork. And I don't know of anybody up in there now that's growing tobacco. There might be somebody, but I don't know who it would be. But... it's a disappearing thing in this country Burley tobacco is and in Jackson County. Now over around Madison and back through that country and Buncombe County and Asheville there is a substantial amount over there still growing. EL: That do you think is the reason for that decline? LO: Jackson County? EL: Yeah. LO: Well, people have just gone to work at other things besides farming on a small scale. Nobody does any small-scale farming much in this country anymore. It's about a thing of the past. Most people work, you know, at some kind of a job. If they own any land, there's very few of them that even farms their own land to tell you the truth. EL: When did you stop farming? LO: When did I stop? EL: Yeah. LO: Well, I'm still farming. I still make some hay and I've got some cattle... but as far as going ...I don't do much. I quit when I was about. I'm 75 now. And I guess when I was 70 years old I done quit. About the only farming that goes on around here now is people putting up hay for cows, cattle feed. They've got a few cattle and that's about it. Just like these... all these hay bales you see down here that's on another property. I don't own that. He used to raise a good bit of corn down there in those bottoms. But he don't grow any more corn, it's all grass now. He makes hay out of it and he's got some cattle. Used to be that you could... around all over this in here Owen 7 everybody had a cornfield, something you know like that, but you never see any more cornfields. You don't see them. And a lot of people you know have sold their land. It don't belong to them anymore. There's been a lot of change in this country here in the last 50 years. EL: Did you have some corn before? LO: Yeah, my Daddy used to grow corn here and I used to grow a little bit. He never did grow much but everybody that farmed they grew some corn. EL: Sounds like it was both for...some for people and some for your animals. LO: Yeah, yeah. They had to have it for animals to eat and then for anything… cornmeal you meal you know. Everybody in this country eats cornbread, you know. [laughs] And that old time white corn that they used to grow in this country for cornmeal is much better than this stuff that you grow, that you buy out of the grocery store. Hybrid, you know, hybrid corn? And it don't have the...I don't think it has the flavor than the old time white corn. And, yeah, there's been a lot of change in the last 50 years in this country EL: So, I guess a couple of questions come to mind. One is, I wonder with your farming here did you have people helping you, working with you, on your tobacco? LO: I'd have to hire some help, yeah. It's takes a lot of work to put up even a small amount of tobacco. And you got to have some help. If you don't have help you get so far behind you never would get anything done. And that's another thing back ... I think the reason that a lot people that grew a good bit of tobacco was labor problems. You couldn't get help, you see. That's the reason there's so many of these Mexicans in this country now. They come in here and do work that nobody else would do, you see. Now, Shelton over there, if it wasn't for the Mexicans, he'd be out of business because I don't know who he'd get. EL: Yeah. He said the exact same thing. LO: Yeah. I don't know who he'd get if he didn't have those Mexicans over there doing his work I don't, he wouldn't get anybody in this country to do it cause you can't hire them, they're just not there. That's the reason ... you know back 50 years ago in this country there was always somebody looking for work, you know. They wanted to make a little money and there was always a job for them. But there's nobody out looking for any kind of work like that now. They don't want it. EL: Who would you have hired? I mean, where the people working for you local? LO: Just my neighbors, just people in the community where we live. EL: And what about for your Dad, would he have hired any help or was it. ..? Owen 8 LO: Oh yeah, he’d hired. He’d hired his neighbors if some of his neighbors wanted to help him, you know, he'd hire them. That's where he got his help, from his neighbors. It's not that way anymore. The Indians over here on the reservation they used to be... you used to be able to go over there and get some of them to help you, you know, but you'll not find anybody over there. [laughing] EL: Not today? LO: No. EL: Interested in other places. Would... do you ever see any women working out in tobacco or was it...? LO: Oh yeah. Well the women used to help... you'd see several women out, oh they wasn't out there doing the real hard work, you know, but they was always there. The family a working, you know, a man's wife, or his daughters if they were old enough to work they'd do it. They'd work in the tobacco. EL: So what would they have been doing, what would their jobs have been that would have been different from the men? LO: Transplanting it from the bed, from the plant bed to the field ... they could do that, you know, setting it out. A lot of the tobacco that was grown in this country when they first started growing it, it was all clone by hand. Plants were pulled out of the bed and set out in the fields by hand. They didn't have a machine to do it. And that's slow, golly, that’s slow works, you know, you don’t… it takes a lot of people to get anything done. And then later on of course, they got the trans planters and machines to set it out, but you still had to have somebody to feed the plant to the machine, you see, while the tractor was pulling it. Of course, a girl could do that or even a child, a little girl or somebody, a man's children if they was ten years old they could set by there in the seat and put a tobacco plant. It wasn't hard work anyway. It's a matter of picking up a plant here and putting it in there. But the women worked, yeah. EL: And so the men would have been doing more like harvesting the plants? LO: The men would do the hard work, yeah. Like carrying it you know. Like cutting it and spearing it on a stick and then carrying it and putting it in the barn. The women you wouldn't see them doing it. All but some of them who could. But very very few. EL: Would there have been women working in the 30's when your Dad was...? LO: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And then women would help when tobacco was being stripped off Owen 9 the stalk and prepared for the market. They could do that work you know. Women, they did a lot of work in tobacco. EL: I was up in Virginia in Franklin County, south of Roanoke a little bit and I just remember going into a little museum up there and they had... I can't think what they had made out of tobacco. I don't know if they were little dolls or little baskets but they was just kind of things that I think like people are working, but maybe once they got off work they still work it with their hands. Did you ever see anything like that that people would make out of leaves? LO: No. I never did. Are you talking about a kind of craft work? EL: Yeah. Kind of like someone whittling wood or something, because I know most of it is going to be packed up to sell. LO: I never did know anybody in this country every making any crafts out of tobacco. But I guess they do it up there. That would-be flue-cured tobacco probably. EL: Yeah. LO: Franklin County, Virginia. Is that at Roanoke? EL: It's south of Roanoke. LO: So what other, you said there have been a lot of changes, I just wondered you mentioned just having to set plants by hand and having machines, what are some other changes that you saw over the years in terms of how the planting went or what you had to do? EL: Well, back in the early 30s the first tobacco ever grown in this country the transplant beds, you know where the young plants were grown to be pulled up and then taken to the field, the ground had to be burned with fire. You see that would kill all the weed seeds and grass seeds that was in the soil so it wouldn't interfere with the tobacco plants, you see. And they dig up a section of whatever they wanted where they was going to sow the bed and then they'd build a fire on that and burn the soil and that would kill all those weed seeds and grass seeds that were in the soil and they wouldn't be coming up through the tobacco plants. A little later on they stopped burning it and that was.... the soil was fumigated with a chemical, a gas. You put a plastic cover over the ground and then you'd... what was that? I can't think of the name of the gas... anyway it was in a can. And it was put under that plastic cover and left about 24 hours and then that fumigation would do the same thing as the fire did. And that was a big change. And of course the tobacco transplant, oh I guess 30-35 years ago most people around here had them. The tobacco transplanter that install with a tractor and it would set out a row of tobacco. Somebody would sit here and somebody would sit here and they there was a big wheel that came around and you'd just pick the plant up and put it in that wheel and the wheel put it in the ground. Owen 10 LO: Oh, so they're just sitting on like a little platform? EL: Yeah, yeah. Shelton's got those over there now. I've got one sitting out here at the barn. That's about the only change. Now I've hear them talk, I don't know anything about it but I see pictures and hear them talk about the curing of tobacco out in the field now. They don't put it in the barns anymore. They just go out and put up a row of posts and then some framework and hang the tobacco in there and then they cover it over with a plastic and that's the shelter it gets, keeps the rain and wind off of it. In fact I saw one last year, I don't know whether it'll be there this year or not but you know going on the Franklin Highway from Dillsboro, you know where the Woodland Motel is over there, the Woodland Restaurant? LO: Yeah. And there's a Seventh Day Adventist Church there, I think, well this Bradley, Dowdy Bradley had one of those outside curing shelters there, you could see it from the highway last year. Now it evidently works pretty good. EL: Yeah, I was reading something about they are portable…I mean it's... LO: Yeah, yeah. You just set them out in the field, you line the posts .... the poles the sticks are hung on and they cover that over with plastic and that shelters it. And it seems to work pretty good, I guess. But I don't know anything about it. I never did do it. EL: What about things like problems with insects or other disease like today Blue Mold and that type of thing? LO: Yeah, well Blue Mold was a problem that never was in this country here until ... the first year it hit this country was in 1979. That was the first Blue Mold. And people didn't know what happened to their tobacco. It just, the leaves just fell off the stalk and it just ruined it. And it's been here ever since. But they do have a defense against it now of some kind, I don't know what it is, but some kind of chemical you can spray it with. EL: So in your later years of farming, were you using different kinds of pesticides or other things. I mean, had you always... was that something new? LO: Yeah, about the only pesticide they had back in the 30s... they didn't have any of the chemicals that they have today to fight the insects. They had poisons . The name of one of them I remember is arsenic of lead. That was a poison, see. And you could put that, you could spray your tobacco with that and the bugs would eat it and it supposed to kill it you know. I think it's dangerous, I think. Or you could put it in the ground around the tobacco plant and make up a mixture of some kind of dough and put that arsenic with lead in that and then the worms that was there in the ground would if he ate it it'll kill him. But I don't know how affective it was. I don't think it was very effective. Then I guess the more.... better pesticides Owen 11 started being used in I'd say in the 50s probably, sprays and things they have now. Then they had herbicides... Burley tobacco plant and I guess flue-cured too when it reaches a certain stage, that bloom has to be cut out of the plant-you know at the top where it blooms, where the flower is-and if you cut that out, then the tobacco leaves will thicken up and the tobacco is a better quality and it leaves more, you get more leaves. And that was always done with a knife, you just cut the top out. And then when you cut that top out, the suckers started growing. Do you know what a sucker is? You know where the leave comes off on the stalk, right there in that joint the suckers start growing. You see them on tomato plants. Then all those suckers had to be broken out of there by hand. You had to go through the whole tobacco field and keep all those suckers...it had to be done 2 or 3 times before the tobacco was harvested. And it was a slow hard job. Well then, they got herbicide you could spray the tobacco with after you cut the top out, them little suckers wouldn't grow. So, that was a big problem eliminated. And, then other things too. EL: I guess I've wondered a lot about weather too. I know the whole idea of weather is pretty, it's a big part of farming obviously. But I've wondered, I not sure how to ask this. I guess one thing I could ask is if you've had, if there's certain years or certain times while you were farming you remember when the weather severely affected you one way or the other? You had a great crop or you had some kind of troubles because of too much rain or too much ...? LO: Oh yeah, the weather that was the main thing. If you didn't get good weather, you didn't get a good crop. You could get not near enough rain or you can get too much rain. Either one was bad on tobacco, especially on tobacco. But if tobacco field got too much rain, where the ground just stayed soaked with water for days and days and days on about the time it's ready to harvest, it just ruined. It's just wilted down; the leaves would fall off of it. And then the drought of course it didn't grow ...or a wind storm or a hail storm. Now that's really what got tobacco was a hail storm. If there was a streak of hail went through why ... all you'd have would be some stalks standing up out there up out there with no leaves on them- they’d all loped off and down on the ground. Weather was a big, the main thing that you to hope for good out of. EL: So tobacco was your main crop? for your farm or? LO: Yeah, most of what I had some cattle and then I had some tobacco. And you might say that was my main crop. EL: Were you ever doing any work outside of farming? LO: Oh yeah. For the last several years here that I bought and sold grain. All these old mills around here. I'd supplied them with corn. I'd buy and sell grain - corn, wheat, so on. I did that for about 20 years. And this old mill that's up here in the Park, I don't know whether you've ever been up there or not, Mingus Creek Mill. Well, I supplied them with corn for about 20 years- back in the 70s, the 80s. And this old mill down here, down on the highway, the old one with the water wheel on it, and some more around. Owen 12 EL: What is that now? Is that -that mill. I've gone by there but it looks like it's just a place to visit? LO: That's all it is. It's just strictly for tourists. But that used to be the community mill. Back 60 and 70 and 80 years and 90 years ago and 100 years ago in this country. Everybody that had any land and did any framing at all, they had some wheat. You see that's where you got your flour. And they'd harvest that wheat and every community had a mill in it and they'd take it to the mill and they'd get the wheat ground into flour. You didn't buy it at the store like you do now. And that mill down there ground wheat and it also ground corn and every community had a mill in it. EL: Going back to the tobacco, where did you through the years take it or send it out to be sold. You mentioned that there have been different warehouses in Asheville, but what about in Jackson County. Were there ever? LO: There never was no sale in Jackson County. The nearest market was Asheville. To here you had to go to Asheville to the market. There was probably 7 or 8 warehouses in Asheville that sold tobacco. I don't remember just exactly how many there were but I'd say at least 7 or 8. And the market always started around the early part of December and they would sell so many days a week and then they would usually sell until the 19th of December and then they would shut down for the Christmas holidays and then the market wouldn't resume until after the first of the year. And that was usually about the 10th of January or somewhere along there. And everybody would try and get their tobacco sold before the market closed for Christmas because it always went down, the price wasn't as good after Christmas. They would try and get it sold before the market closed for Christmas. EL: Well, it seems like Zeik told me that a lot of people were eager to sell before Christmas to have it as Christmas money. LO: Oh yeah. That was the main reason. But they could get more money though. I don't know why the market always went down after Christmas. Maybe the buyers thought Well, there's not going to be much and they'll just take what we offer them because they got to sell it anyway. That was probably the reason. But usually whenever the market opened up after Christmas END OF SIDE A START OF SIDE B EL: Do you consider yourself living in Whittier. LO: Well, that's the Post Office. EL: Yes, that the Post Office. What do you call this area or does it have a name? Owen 13 LO: This is Qualla Township and this is the Olivet Community. EL: Okay Olivet LO: Because the church over here is Olivet Church and there used to be a school over here and it was Olivet School. But the school is gone, not there anymore but the church is still here so this has always been called the Olivet Community. EL: Did you go to school in that school? LO: Yeah. EL: How long did you go to school? LO: We went to school, it was either 8 or 9 months, I believe it was 8 months. And you completed the 7th grade and then you went to high school. I went to high school in Sylva. EL: Oh you did. Did you go to any school beyond high school or did you? LO: No I never did go any further than high school. That was as far as I went. EL: So you were working with your Dad pretty much after you finished high school? LO: Yeah. Well the war started there in 1941 and that was a big change. I worked on work jobs, on work projects you know for several years. I came back here in 1969, no 1968 and then I farmed here from 1960 on up until I retired. EL: So, are you saying that from the 40s to the 60s, you were doing work projects that long. LO: Yeah, I was working on public works. EL: Do you have brothers and sisters in this area or did you have…? LO: Yeah, I have a brother that lives right down here and I have another brother- well he's living here now but just temporarily. He's having to take care of… he and his wife are having to take care of her mother over here, but he lives in South Carolina. He's retired. My brother that lives down here he carried the mail out of Whittier on his route until he retired. He was a rural mail carrier. And then my brother that lives in South Carolina, he worked for, he did construction work and then he worked for Duke Power Company down there until he retired, that big power company off down here in South Carolina, Duke Power. And that's where he lives now but he and his wife are over here taking care of her mother. She's old and invalid. Owen 14 EL: Were they working on the farm too when they were younger? LO: Yeah, my younger brother, he's--, of course he never did as much work as I did or my other brother down here because he was younger you see. EL : And do you have a family of your own? LO: No, I've never been married. I'm a bachelor. EL: I guess that sometimes that changes too. When I was talking with William about, you know his kids are small, but for people when they do have children, to see like in your case, you chose to keep working the farm with your Dad and not- everybody does that a little different. But that's something I've heard from people that sometimes as the younger generations come up that they are also looking for other things to do. LO: Well William, I didn't know he'd married. He'd been married, I don't know I guess 5 or 6 years but he had been married 2 or 3 years and I didn't even know it. I was talking with him on the phone one night about a year ago and come to find out he was married. Yeah he's been married I guess 5 or 6 years. But he lives over there not very far from his farming operation. You see his daddy just lives over the hill over here. You know where this big old Mormon Church is out here. Well you come on this way after you pass that church, there's a the side of that hill over there where you see all those evergreen trees, that's where his daddy lives. That's where William was raised, that's where he grew up. EL: So I guess I wonder like, besides you said you had hired neighbors or other people to work for you to help, was there ever some occasion where you needed extra help or maybe there was… I'm not even quite sure what I'm thinking of, but just like if there was a time when you were kind of in a tight spot and you had to just like get some people in to help you. LO: You mean some kind of emergency? EL: Yeah, yeah. Or like I would wonder when you were talking about how hail could ruin your fields, if you would gather people up to help cover a crop or something. LO: Well if you needed some help, you could usually get some help from your neighbors. You didn't have much trouble. And people back at that time, they'd help one another you know. But tobacco is about a thing of the past in this country. I noticed in the paper, I believe it was today's paper, it might have been yesterday's paper, they said that cigarette consumption was down in the U.S. by 25 percent and worldwide, wherever people smoke tobacco, it was also going down. So I just wonder if tobacco was going to go out all over the world. It might do it you know, you never know. But it's been 300 years at least since people starting using it and the Indians had it you know. 300 years and then started to fade away. Owen 15 EL: Do you know if Cherokee people on the boundary were growing tobacco that much? LO: Oh yeah. They grow tobacco. A lot of those Cherokees over there grow tobacco. There's all kinds of tobacco. These old timers that lived here in this country years and years ago. They didn't grow tobacco to sell but they grew it for their own use. I remember a fellow over on Camp Creek, he's still living. 25 years ago, he was still raising that old tobacco for his own use. He'd chew it, you see. He didn't go to the store and buy chewing tobacco, he'd grow'd his own. It was a funny looking tobacco. Don't know what kind of tobacco it was but it'd been grown here for years and years and people would chew it, and smoke it and everybody evidentially back then all the tobacco users, they grew their own tobacco. I never see any more of it and this fellow I was telling about on Camp Creek, I don't think he grows any more of it but about 25 years ago, he was still raising it. And didn't want to buy it out of the store. EL: Sounds like a smaller leaf plant. LO: Yeah it was a very narrow leaf and it would grow up about 5 feet high and it had a long narrow leaf. The leaf would be about 7 or 8 inches wide and maybe about 2 feet long. Real narrow, dark green. It was air cured like burley. You just hung it in the barn and it cured out and when it cured out it was mostly a black color. It didn’t cure out red or brown like burley, it was mostly black. EL: And when did you say that people probably stopped raising their own tobacco? LO: Most people in this country, I would say stopped raising their own tobacco way back there about 100 years ago when there was a commercial tobacco and people started putting it on the market and chewing tobacco, and smoking tobacco you know. But those old-timers would grow their own tobacco and they'd smoke it in a pipe, they didn't smoke cigarettes, they smoked a pipe. And they smoked that tobacco in a pipe and then they'd chew it. EL: I've wondered if many like your generation, your age, if many tobacco farmers would actually chew or smoke tobacco or…? LO: You mean like Burley- No I never knew of any of them. If they used tobacco, they'd always buy it you know, smoking tobacco or chewing. I never did know of anybody chewing Burley in any amounts. Somebody probably chewed some to see how it tasted, but it really don't taste very good. I haven't used tobacco in 31 years. I quit fooling with it in 1969 was the last I ever smoked. I haven't used any since. I used to chew a little tobacco as well as smoke it. But Burley it didn't taste good, it had to be processed. Mix all that stuff with it. EL: What made you decide to quit smoking? LO: Well I thought it was hurting my health, that was the reason I quit. Cause I think it was. I didn't feel good. And I know after I stopped smoking I never did crave a cigarette. I didn't want a Owen 16 cigarette. had no desire whatsoever. But the way it affected me just, my sleeping. I never did sleep as well for 2 or 3 years. I guess it was a big change. The body getting shut off from that tobacco you know. I had smoked about 25 years. But I felt so much better after I quit smoking cigarettes that I didn't want to smoke one. I never did crave a cigarette. I hear these people talk about they just go crazy, want to have a cigarette, got to have a cigarette, well it never affected me that way because I felt so much better I didn't want one. But it did affect my sleeping. Where I had been sleeping maybe 7 or 8 hours a night, I would sleep maybe just 4 or 5 hours a night for a year or two until I guess my body got reattuned. I'm glad I quit because I probably wouldn't be here if I kept on. EL: I have another question that relates to that but I realize I want to check the sound. I wonder what you think about, I just heard on the news, and this is kind of the news a lot the last years just with people, the declining people smoking. I just heard on radio some people suing a cigarette company because of their cancer or something. LO: I don't think you ought to get into that. I don't think it's right for a jury. I mean, if somebody wants to smoke a cigarette, there it is, that warning on the tobacco package plainly tells them as well as everything else they know about it and then if they go ahead and do it, well, what's the tobacco company got to do with that, that's their own free choice, that's what I think about it. I don't think we ought to get into that. Nobody forced them to do it. I mean the tobacco company didn't force them. EL: I'm of the same mind. Would you know, like when your tobacco would get sold, if it was going to a certain company, like a certain. Did you have certain buyers you always sold to or did that…? LO: No, the seller didn't have any choice about who he sold it to. When your tobacco was in the warehouse, it was in rows. There would be a row of those baskets down through there and then another row and all those buyers who represented all the tobacco companies, I guess a lot of them were from England maybe, maybe some of them from Europe as well as American tobacco companies, they had buyers there. Well it was sold at auction. Did you ever hear one of those tobacco auctioneers? EL: I haven’t heard one, I've heard of them.. LO: Well you didn't know what they were saying, I don't know if the buyer did, but they would go down, just walking along and all these buyers. Well, you didn't know who they were, the seller, the buyer, he didn't know which represented an American tobacco company or Phillip Morris or Liggett and Myers or whatever, and they would bid on that tobacco and when they went on they would put their lag on it. What it brought and then the company who bought it didn't even know who bought it. There would usually be a girl and she would follow along with all those buyers and she had those ribbons, red, white and some of them yellow ribbons and if it was bought by Phillip Morris, that went on the tobacco you see and you knew who bought it. Owen 17 EL: So, the color was for the company. LO: Well maybe it didn't have anything to do with the company at all, maybe they just put whatever color the girl liked maybe or something. But they'd have the name of the company who bought the tobacco on that ribbon you see and what it brought and then they would mark the ticket. There would be a ticket there with your name on it and how many pounds of tobacco was on that basket and then they would make on there it brought $1.50 a pound or $1.65 or $1.70 a pound whatever was there. EL: And what would they be looking for when they are looking at the tobacco in the basket to decide? LO: Well those buyers were tobacco experts - they could just look. All they had to do was glance at tobacco and they knew whether it was good, bad or halfway in between. They knew what it was and they didn't have to inspect. Just as they walked by. Those birds, they knew what tobacco was when they saw it. And if it was extra good tobacco, well then it would bring a good price. EL: So what would make it extra good? What kind of qualities? LO: Well it had to be cured properly and it had to be not too much moisture. If it was high moisture content, that would drop the price down because they didn't want it. It had to be the right moisture content and it had to be cured properly. And it had to be clean, no dirt on it. And that's what they looked for. Well and then the texture of it had to be right, you know. Like I say, those buyers, they were experts, all they had to do was look at it and they knew what it was. It was interesting to see them operate. They just followed along with that auctioneer and him just a chattering away at ‘em and I don't think they even knew what he was saying but they knew what they were going to pay. And the market over here in Asheville was always in the winter time. Now the flue-cured market down east, that was in the summer. Those markets down there would open up in a certain time and then the ones on further east would open another time and then the ones in South Carolina and Georgia would open another time and it was always in the summer, you see. Their market, their tobacco was cured shortly after it was harvested. Well this Burley, it took 6 weeks to cure it after it was harvested. And then it had to be prepared for market and that took some more time and it was always around the first of December before the market ever opened here. And then like I said a while ago, it would close about the 19th of December and wouldn't open back up until the 10th of January. And the price would go down. EL: So, would all the farmers, would you be there at the warehouse when they auctioned, when everything…? LO: They'd be there. You didn't have to be there. If you were not there, it would still sell. EL: Yeah and then you'd get the money or you'd get some…? Owen 18 LO: Yeah, then you could, then when you knew your tobacco had sold even if you were not there, all you would have to do is go there in the office at the warehouse and take your bill when you complete it and you'd get your check. But it was always a good idea to be there because you never knew, they might make a mistake or something and maybe your tobacco was good, and not bringing as much as it should and you'd have time to complain about it. But if you waited 2 or 3 days, then it's too late you know. EL: Let me ask on kind of different note with your work with farming. What is it about the farming that you’ve enjoyed over the years. I mean, you've been doing it since you were a kid. LO: Well the thing I liked about it the most is working for yourself, you know. You didn't have to work for somebody else. You worked for yourself. That's what I always liked about it. EL: How did it compare with those 20 years or so when you were doing other work projects? Did you miss farming at that time or did you enjoy the other work just as much? LO: Well I enjoyed my other work but, of course, when you worked on the job, you got paid once a week or something like that. You don't do that farming. About once a year and that's it. EL: Just thinking about this exhibit that there might be kids like middle school or high school age that are learning about farming, whether it's tobacco or dairy or whatever. If you were actually talking yourself to some kids that might be interested in farming, what might you tell them. Or if there were kids that have never thought about farming, is there something you might tell them to consider doing some work? LO: To consider whether to farm or not? EL: Yeah, Yeah LO: Well, I'd tell them to know what they were doing before they got started into it and be sure they knew what they were doing and not just jumping into something they didn't know anything about. Be pretty well informed about what they were getting into. Of course, farming is just like anything else. If a man was going out here and join some kind of business that he doesn't know anything about, he'd be taking a chance you know. Farming is the same way. But I don't think there will be much farming going on in Western North Carolina in the future like there has been. I think it's about to fail fast because the land is getting so scarce and so high that you can't buy land today for less than $10, 15, 20,000 an acre and farm on it. They tell me now that that's what some of the land brings $15,20,000 an acre- some of it, choice places. I've heard that. But you never know what's out there in the future, you never know. Times can change awful quick. EL: Do you still like working outside? You said you still have hay and some cattle. Do you have a Owen 19 garden at all, any vegetables or anything like that? LO: I have a little garden over here. I planted it the other day. I've got some corn and some beans and some potaters and tomaters and stuff like that. If the crows don't eat it up. They sit up there in those woods and I think they watch me as I leave and then they come in and pull up my garden. EL: I think I just have a couple more questions. Have there been other things that you have enjoyed doing on the land beside farming, like hunting or fish much or anything else. LO: Like What? EL: Have you done much hunting or fishing or anything else on the land beside. LO: No, I never was much of a fisherman or a hunter either. I used to hunt a little bit when I was a boy, rabbit hunt, squirrel hunt and so on like that. But that's about the only hunting I ever did. I never was much of a fisherman. I just never did fish much. Too much wading in the creek. EL: Rather stay on that dry land. Well, I don't know if I have any other questions pop into my mind. We've been talking for quite awhile. I guess the other thing that other people have talked about, you are the first person I've talked with that's grown tobacco. I wonder if there has ever been anything like an organization or any kind of group that you have been a part of, either informal or formal with other people who have been farming tobacco. It just seems like when I talked to the tree farmer in Jackson County, he had been part of a local group of tree farmers. LO: Organized group. EL: Yeah, kind of organized group that kind of gave each other ideas about what they are doing. LO: No, I never did belong to anything like that. Well, in fact I never did know of any group among tobacco growers around here like that. I never did hear of none. But these tree farmers, they have got… I think kind of like a union or something. It wouldn't be a union, but just kind of a group. I think they probably maybe work for the market, better markets or something I guess is about what it is. I don't know. But that's about all what you could call farming in Jackson County now is tree farming. That's the big thing among the farmers in Jackson County now, I think. EL: Yeah, well according to another agent, extension agent who is in horticulture, Christy, she said that there are 300 people farming right now, tree farming. And that a small number of them have large acreage and then it just kind of goes down so people have just 10 acres or less. I guess it seems like a good thing for people around here, especially Fraser firs and other trees that are native to the area. LO: Well up in that part of Jackson County, you see the elevation is much higher than it is here Owen 20 and those Fraser firs trees they grow better up there than they do here. That's what they like, the higher elevation. And there's a few little Christmas tree farms around here, but very small. But up in that part of the county, that's where they are. EL: And what makes this a good area for growing tobacco? Or what is it that you look for when you are looking for a place to grow? LO: Burley tobacco will grow most anywhere where you have a long enough growing season you see. As long as you have a no frost zone between say May and September, where there is not any danger of killing frost, it'll grow. But up in that area, they would have some frost danger because sometimes it frosts and freezes up there that we don't get down here. But as far as the soil, most any kind of soil will do Burley tobacco. But I guess a clay soil grows probably the best but most any kind of soil will grow Burley tobacco. The main thing is just to have a frost-free zone in there between the start of the crop and the harvest where it don't get killed. If tobacco got a freeze or frost on it before it's harvested, it's ruined. EL: Some other questions that I could probably ask after I turn off the tape recorder. I've been wondering if it's going to rain, it just keeps getting darker. LO: I think it's going to rain this evening. EL: I just heard a little thunder. LO: I listened to the weather report this morning and they said that there's going to be thunderstorms tonight and maybe tomorrow too. EL: explains tape and forms. If you have other things you would like to add. LO: I think we've pretty well covered it. I hear my dog out there and he's END TAPE

In this interview, conducted as part of the Agriculture Project by the Mountain Heritage Center at Western Carolina University, Lloyd Owen of Whittier discusses tobacco farming in Jackson County. He talks about the types of tobacco grown in Jackson County, focusing on burley tobacco, which was grown from the 1920s through the 1960s; his own family began growing burley in the 1930s, selling it in markets in Knoxville or Asheville. Owen talks about government controls on tobacco farming, including the acreage controls of the 1930s and the poundage controls implemented in the 1970s. Before discussing his own history as a farmer, Owen talks about different methods of tobacco curing and how flue-curing differs from other methods. He talks about he came to be a tobacco farmer and the changes he has seen in tobacco farming in Jackson County; Owen stopped farming tobacco around 1995 and he talks about how farming has shifted to other crops. He discusses the importance of hired help and guest workers and how women contributed to tobacco farming, and he addresses changes in planting practice and curing, as well as pest issues and the weather. Owen closes by talking about his work outside farming, including buying and selling grains for local mills and the practices of selling and marketing tobacco.

• Creator
  • Owen, Lloyd, 1925-
• Contributor
  • Lower, Emily
• Format
  • Sound recordings
  • Transcripts
  • Interviews
• Type
  • Sound
  • Text
• Date
  • Date interview: 2000-05-23
  • Date: 1930s; 1940s; 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s;
  • Date digitized: 2015-05-22
• Extent
  • Duration: 01:17:34 (sound recording)
  • Duration: 20 pages (transcript)
• Subject - Topic
  • Agriculture
  • Owen, Lloyd, 1925- -- Interviews
  • Tobacco -- North Carolina -- Jackson County
  • Tobacco curing
  • Tobacco farmers -- North Carolina -- Jackson County
  • Tobacco industry -- Government policy -- United States
• Location
  • Jackson County (N.C.)
  • Buncombe County (N.C.)
  • Knox County (Tenn.)
  • North Carolina, Western
• Source institution
  • Western Carolina University
• Source Collection
  • WCU Mountain Heritage Center Oral Histories
• Identifier
  • MHC_Lower_Owen_2000-05-23
• Repository
  • Western Carolina University Mountain Heritage Center