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  • Western Carolina University
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  • HL_HIST340-574_Lawrence_Nix_2022-02-24_transcript

Nix 1 Subject: Debbie Nix Interviewer: Bailey Lawrence Location: Sumter County, SC (Phone interview) Date: February 24th, 2022 Length: 01:10:57 Western Carolina University Alumni Bailey Lawrence: My name is Bailey Lawrence I am here with Ms. Debbie Nix. Today’s date is February 24th 2022. Ms. Nix do you consent to this interview being recorded? Debbie Nix: Yes I do. BL: Perfect. So we’re going to start with what years were you at Western? DN: I came to Western in 1966 and graduated in 1970. BL: Perfect, and what brought you to Western? DN: I guess a couple things. The main thing that brought me to Western was, that at that time I was going into special education. And we live in South Carolina, we live about 4 hours from Cullowhee. And there was not a school in South Carolina at that time that had a major in special ed. They had certificates but not a major. So I checked around and found out that Western did have a major. So that was one of the main reasons, and probably the main reason that got me to Western Carolina. Although, I’ve always loved snow, and we don’t ever have a lot in South Carolina. So, I figured I would get an abundance there. So, that was another thing. And when I visited it was just knock down gorgeous. The mountains the campus everything. I just loved it. BL: Perfect! So, what got you involved in student politics or the Women’s House Government. DN: You know I can’t really remember. Since I’ve gotten information from you about this, I’ve been thinking back to that. I don’t know exactly how it started. I remember I was a Greek also at Western and I don’t know if it started, if I got information about it there, or I just saw it around campus. I was interested in it. I had been involved in high school and that sort of thing, and I thought it sounded like a really neat thing. I remember we had to, like it was a election so we had to run. I remember making posters for it, which is kind of strange. I cannot pinpoint exactly what got me into it. But, my guess would be either seeing something on campus, hearing about it from someone, and in the sorority maybe someone mentioned it to me or something like that. BL: Yeah, so , how did you get involved in Greek life? DN: Well I, my sister was at Carolina, the University of South Carolina. She was a Ki Omega, and she just really talked about it. I think Greek life gets a really bad reputation a lot of times (laughter) people often times say all they do is party, and drink as if they are the only people on campus that do that sorta thing. I think they overlook all the great things that it does. So my roommate and I decided we would probably not pledge until our sophomore year. Just to get out Nix 2 feet on the ground. Looking back I think that was a wise thing to do. We got used to Western, and then we saw a lot of the Greeks and the things they were doing. We had a lot of friends say they like it so, you just needed some group wherever you go to college. You’ve got to have a connection to something weather it’s the band or a math group or organization or a Greek. So I think that was very appealing also. That you immediately had a bunch of really good friends. I think that made, since I couldn’t get home very easily just on a regular weekend, it was nice to have that and all the activities, and that sorta thing. I guess it was the interest in knowing people and then just having the connection there with a group. BL: Yeah, since you didn’t join until your, or rush until sophomore year what was your experience like as a freshman? Like in a dorm can you describe that? DN: Oh I loved it! I had a really, really great experience. I just remember a lot of fun things we did and made good friends on the hall. Seems like there was always something going and the football games and that sorta thing. But I just remember I guess typical things you do, you know, burning popcorn in the little area where you have that. (laugh) Sittin around talking much too late in the middle of the night. Just getting to know people and that sorta thing. It was just a really good experience. BL: Yeah. What was your opinion of the student house governments at that time? DN: I had a really very high opinion of it. Even before I really got involved. I thought it was very interesting thinking back to the time period that a college would entrust some of the government to peers. I thought that was really interesting. If I remember correctly we didn’t have you know a real monopoly on anything. It had to go through the people on campus, who you know when something would come before us. A case I guess you would call it. We would talk with the person, get the information. Talk with the person or persons involved and then decide what we thought was appropriate. I remember some of the meetings. I remember thinking that it was important stuff to those students involved. There was nothing really major that we had to deal with, I think that went right to where it should’ve gone. I thought it was really remarkable for a school to do that. I remember, it’s strange the things that are very vivid, I was secretary one year. I had to do the minutes, and of course that was way before the days of any sort of computer. So it was on a type writer with carbon paper (laughter) it’s so antiquated now. I remember when I would do the minutes, I took them to the dean of women. She would talk to me and take me in her office, and look over them and talk with me about them. Like oh, I agree with this, and oh this is good. I just thought that, I remember that was just a very powerful for Western Carolina that I was just a mere student and that I was able to have access to some of the deans. I thought that was really a neat thing. BL: Yeah. Was that Peggy Ziggler? DN: You know I think it was. That name sounds really familiar. Yes, it could have very well been that name. BL: Yeah, well what was your … you also had a working relationship, what was your opinion of her relationship with the rest of the women that she was you know over, in charge of? Nix 3 DN: It was just so open and fair and transparent. I never felt looked down upon, you know that sorta thing. It almost seemed to be, even though we were very well aware of her title compared to ours, it was very equal. Or it appeared that it was very equal, they made us feel that way. I’ll put it that way. So I think they did a wonderful job of welcoming the Women’s House Government members and talking with them and making them feel like our voice mattered. BL: Yeah. DN: Yeah, and I thought that was a wonderful way for all of us to get into that sort of thing for the careers that we would enter. BL: Yeah, so, we were talking about you’re your voice mattering with them or being able to be heard. Was there anything that stuck out to you during your time either living in a dorm or working in the Women’s House Government that you remember, you know there was like this, some event or something you guys wanted to get changed or do? DN: Gosh, let me think. I remember, and this is just quite bizarre. I remember one specific case that came to us and it was a young lady, I don’t remember what year she was. But, she had gone to the whatever, I don’t know if it was in a canteen or the student union. I don’t know exactly, but there were vending machines, you know vending machines were the big thing. She had figured out a way to lift up the flap at the bottom of the vending machine (laugh) reach in there and get a bunch of snacks (laughter). Is that not the strangest thing? I guess it was such a strange situation that I suppose most of them were like staying out after curfew or maybe having alcohol, or I don’t know something like that. But basically this girl was stealing all these snacks and it was very strange. I just remember that and I remember thinking that was an unusual thing. But that is one thing that stands out and I think it’s kind of, in its own way, quite funny. I’m trying to think, there were some things that we did want to change or amend on campus. I hate to tell you Bailey I really can’t remember them. I remember when we ever had that happen, it would never have been a major thing. It would’ve been something that was reasonable. Our opinions were always welcomed with open arms. They were very, very good about listening to us. I don’t know that this is one of them, but I do remember at this time, and it’s so strange to think about now; especially all the girls on campus had to wear skirts or dresses. You know there were no slacks or jeans. I mean we had them, but you certainly couldn’t wear them around. There were times where it got so cold at Western or there was going to be snow. There were times that the women, there would be an announcement, and the women were allowed to wear pants. I’m not sure if we had anything to do with maybe making that a more common experience, where it wasn’t all the time. Rather than going from 0 to 60, you can’t wear anything from a dress to a skirt to all of a sudden you could wear pants. It seems in my mind, maybe there was something we asked if that would be done on a more regular basis rather than when it was just cold. BL: Yeah, yeah. I was astonished. I looked back through all the student handbooks … DN: (laughter) BL: And I was like they made them do what! Nix 4 DN: Yes! BL: I said I would’ve spoken out. But anyway. DN: But you know its true. And I would’ve felt that way too, but that’s all we knew. BL: Yeah. DN: In those days even in high school, that’s what you did. That’s what you wore. Although, when we had parties and football games, and that sorta thing, you would wear jeans. It was just understood. And now people would like, are you out of your mind? It would never be that way. But, at that time that’s just the way it was. So, it wasn’t like we were being singled out or like Western was way behind the times. Western was really quite up with the time, but the times hadn’t gotten where they needed to be yet. (laughter) so… BL: Yeah. Did you see … I know there was some debate with freshman girls, who were incoming, through the years that you were there. DN: Yes. BL: Wanting to change freshman hours, and this like graduated system of leniency towards like more autonomy. DN: Yes, yeah. BL: Yeah… DN: I don’t remember that specifically. But I remember that was the sorta thing we talked about. We were very involved with and they really did listen to us. That’s how I felt I don’t know if the other members your talking with felt the same way. I just remember, the one thing that stands out in my mind is being able to go right in and meet with the dean of women. And I just don’t know my friends who were at other schools that had that ability, and so I thought that spoke highly of Western. BL: Yeah, do you remember the dean of women of a more interactive administrator, rather than other administrators at the school? DN: Yes, yes. BL: How did guys view the men’s house government? DN: You know. We were kind of comrades I suppose. We were kind of like, what are y’all doing, what are y’all talking about? … I think we had mutual respect for each other, and you know, … I don’t remember we ever got together and asked them, what do yall think about this? We might have done that, but I imagine we pretty much did the people we were working with Nix 5 and they did theirs. As far as I remember there was mutual respect and if we ever worked together it would’ve been a fun thing to do. BL: Yeah, did you feel like there was any disconnect between the men’s and women’s housing governments? DN: In my mind, no. I do not remember anything like that. BL: Okay. Do you feel like they were equal in participation? DN: Yes. I guess I’m saying yes, because I never remember being resentful or that sorta thing. So, I think I would’ve remembered that if that stood out. I just remember it being, you know, we were kind of partners but in our own way sorta thing. BL: I guess I ask that, because when I was looking at the different structures of the Women’s House Government and the men’s house government, the women’s seemed to be way more social, and the men’s, I mean more a social organization. And the men’s seemed to be like this governance type of organization that… DN: Okay BL: It didn’t regulate the men as much as the women. Which is you know unsurprising but … DN: Right, yes, yes. Yeah that’s true. That doesn’t really stand out that I remember specifically one way or another. BL: Okay, huh. … So do you remember any interaction with the student government? With being in the Women’s House Government were there any interactions with them? DN: With the men? Is that.. BL: With just the student government, the student body government. DN: Oh, I really don’t. That doesn’t really stand out in my mind. I really don’t remember. I’m certain there were times we would have done that. I just more remember we were an entity. I remember that more so than the overall government. But, I feel certain there were times that we did that and we interacted. BL: Mhmm, okay. Can you, kinda, talk about what life was like to live in a dorm at Western? DN: (Laughter) Okay, let me see. Like I said I had a really good experience. I just remember, so many friends that were made. I remember if you had a date Friday night that was exciting. All the girls would come in whoever’s room had a date. So they would go sit in their rooms while they got dressed. The guys had to call for us downstairs. Which I’m sure is very different now (laugh). I just remember that sorts thing. …. I think that one thing that opened my eyes, not specifically about Western, but you know in high school you have parties and things on the Nix 6 weekends. But when I went to Western there was a party every night. It didn’t matter what day of the week it was, maybe I was naive to that. But I did not realize that there was always an opportunity every single night to go out and do things. I guess that was somewhat of a surprise to me. I just remember a lot of times … all of us getting together in the hall and just sitting on the floor talking or in somebody’s room talking. I remember a lot of things we would do each other’s hair or we would try this new hot oil shampoo, or anything like that (laughter). Or make brownies, or try makeup and stuff. Just kind of like a big long sleepover sometimes. (laughter) I do remember studying together. The later in the night, of course, the sillier we got. It was just a fun experience. I think, I was very happy that I had chosen Western. I really enjoyed my time there. BL: That sounds a lot more fun than it is now. (laughter) DN: And you know I’m not there so I don’t know. I think we maybe didn’t have access to as many outside activities possibly and I mean we would go into Sylva, and that was a big thing. A lot of times we would just do different things like that. I remember, when it snowed and I think I remember specifically being told not to do this. But everybody did, which is not the right reason, you know. We would go in the cafeteria and get something like hot chocolate when it snowed and then take the trays with us (laughter). Then use them as sleds going down the hills. (laughter) We always returned them. BL: Yeah DN: But they were always much dirtier than when they left. (laughter) … Anyway just things like that. I remember there was a professor and he and his wife both taught at Western. There last name was N.A.G.Y. I’m pretty sure it was pronounced (n-aa-ge). They were from another country and it was kind of difficult to understand them, but anyway. We, some of us, just friends. I think there were several girls and several guys, we had just gone into sylva to eat and walk around or maybe gone into Asheville. I don’t remember what we were coming back from Western that night. We either ran out of gas, because we never had enough money for gas. I mean never was there was enough money for gas, or the car broke down that we were in. I really don’t remember that but we knew where the Nagy’s, where they lived. So we thought that they would help us (laugh). And it was late but it wasn’t real late, and we saw some lights on. But anyway the big mistake was, what we did not know was their front porch, they had just poured fresh concrete. BL: Mmm DN: Yeah, and you know what’s going to happen (laughter). So we stepped up and we realized, we had already knocked on the door or whatever. And then we realized we had our footprints in their nice new porch, and so we just high-tailed it out of there as quickly. And, they came in, answered the door and I guess we were faster than they were (laugh). Anyway, they were saying not nice things to us (laughter). I think if I remember correctly, we walked back to Western (laughter) It was just one of those things, we never would have done that had we known that, but anyway it’s just one of those crazy memories, I suppose. (laughter) … I also remember I made a Nix 7 grand slam playing bridge one night before exams, about 3 in the morning. Because, we would always study for a minute and then play cards … I just have fond memories, yeah. BL: That’s awesome. (laughter) So, could you tell me a little more about I guess dating life like on campus and off campus? DN: …. I dated some real nice guys but it kinda leads into my future. But actually a boy I had gone to high school with here in, we live in Dalzell now, which is near Sumter and that’s where I went to high school. But he was at Wofford. We would come home for holidays and we would get together. So actually though I dated some at Western I started dating him on a more serious level, and he was at Wofford. A lot of my dating was with him, and he was a Sigma Nu. So we would go to the weekends. I remember one was Gatlinburg, I’m pretty sure. There were several, but I’m sure. But that’s when I got pinned. Anyway it was a great story but I wasn’t at Western a lot of times. Well he would come to Western on some weekends and I would go to Wofford. Then my roommate met someone so we were kinda going back and forth. So even though the dating was fun and I enjoyed it at Western. I ended up a lot more with David at Wofford. Then, this has nothing to do with what you’re interested in, but it’s really interesting. (laughter)… BL: Go for it… DN: My last semester of Western I was student teaching, because I was in education. My roommate’s parents lived in Weaverville, you know Weaverville, near Asheville. Anyway, and they had a little apartment complex I guess you would call it. So my roommate and I were both student teaching in Asheville. So we stayed in one of those apartments while we were doing our student teaching that last semester. At that time I was engaged to David at Wofford. Well my roommate’s cousin had just come back from the Vietnam War actually, and wasn’t sure what exactly he wanted to do. He got an apartment there also, with it would’ve been his aunt and uncle. So we kind of met up together. He was engaged to someone in California. My roommate Julie was engaged also to someone at Wofford, and I was, but we started hanging out together. So a little spark started coming up between the cousin, whose name was Dave. It’s a little confusing. And me, since we were both engaged, we were very faithful and true. Anyway, we were both engaged, I ended up breaking up with David at Wofford, because I really knew something was right with Dave, even though I couldn’t have him. Then I graduated and went to Winthrop to start my Masters. And un-beknownced to me he had broken up with his fiancé and he tracked me down at Winthrop. And we got married. And we are still married 51 years later. BL: Oh wow… DN: So when we met each other we were both engaged to other people. BL: Huh… DN: Yeah, but true love prevails. As far as dating that’s really my story. It really did involve more of Wofford than that just because I knew him, and that’s who I was dating. Nix 8 BL: Yeah, well I guess what was your social life on Western’s campus, because obviously the men’s and women’s housing was separate, geographically separate as well. So, can you kinda talk to that? DN: Let me think. I guess I would have to say more with our sorority that we did a lot of the philanthropic projects and a lot of weekends we would have a lot of activities. So my social life at Western I would say would be through the sorority. Just had a great experience with that also. Between that and just knowing people and the dorm and Women’s House Government I would say those were the things that contributed to my social life at that time. BL: Yeah, yeah. So I have to ask this question because I’ve asked everybody, but do you remember the townhouse on campus? DN: I’m sorry, didn’t hear all of that question. BL: Do you remember the townhouse on campus? DN: Yes! I remember it. BL: (laugh) Can you … DN: I do! BL: Can you tell me what those vibes were like? Everybody talks about it, and it’s not here. DN: (laughter) It was just the gathering place. It was just fun, and it was kinda like a central place. You could just stop in and there would be people there you could meet or could whatever. It was just to me the big, a big social place to be. And just good clean fun I guess I would say. BL: Yeah, yeah. I know, I’ve talked to other people that said that was the place to go. The only place that wasn’t like, you know university run. DN: Yeah! BL: So I was like that’s really cool. DN: (laughter) Yeah, it was neat that we had that. I think with the location of Western Carolina, in its own way kind of isolated and together which made it neat. I think there were a lot of times that things happened and… I remember doing a lot of I can’t say hiking like exercise. But kind of hiking, and going out with people on a Saturday. You would call your friends or your guy friends or your girlfriends, oh lets kind of go do that then go get something to eat. Because you know you have right there some of the most beautiful places ever. I do remember doing that a couple times. … When my parents would come up from Sumter to bring food and stuff like that there was always a picnic and we would go out somewhere and have it right in the middle of the mountains. And then Sylva, oh what was that house. I think it’s still there. It has like family Nix 9 dining that you get big bowls of food for the whole table. It was like a two story house, like white. Oh, what was the name of what. But it was in Sylva, I could still see it. BL: Was it in downtown Sylva or was it in Dillsboro. Because, there’s the inn in Dillsboro that’s two stories? DN: I don’t think it was. I think it was in Sylva. BL: Huh. DN: But I can’t remember it might have been Dillsboro. But I just remember my parents loved that. There was a really nice clothing store in Sylva believe it or not. I’m sure it was catering to the college group, when my parents would come we would go there. I can’t remember the name of that, it seems like a person’s name. A first name or last name, something like that. That was always good. I wanna think that restaurant, that … but then there were sometimes on the weekend’s social life we might all go to, you know like Gatlinburg or Cherokee. Just for you know almost like a tourist, just for like something to do. … BL: Yeah, so like when you left on the weekends did you have to check out? DN: We did! (laughter) I can’t remember when if it was like, like if you would go off for a couple of hours I don’t remember the particulars. I do remember checking out and checking in. It was probably involved for with night time things or if it was an overnight. I do remember that. If we were going on a date, I remember we were called. There was someone downstairs … the guy would come in and call for you. (laughter) In’t that funny! Even now saying it, I’m like oh goobers we were. … That’s just the way it was. It wasn’t that we were, that Western was being really strict. I do remember fire drills too. Some of those particularly in the middle of the night, I do remember that. I remember we would always think it was funny and it was cold sometimes. I remember the guys sneaking in and having, I guess you used to call them panty raids. I don’t know if that’s really what they were doing. That was really something if guys made it onto the hallway (laughter) you know. Such a different world! Soo different. BL: Oh man. DN: Yeah! (laughter) BL: Yeah, I had someone describe panty raids … of the men going outside and heckling the women to throw down their under-garments. DN: Oh! Yeah think animal farm I suppose. (laughter) But not anywhere near that level. (laughter) BL: So did you see it as more of an extension after leaving home, like… DN: Was college an extension did you say? Nix 10 BL: Yeah, after leaving home with your parents and in high school … DN: Yeah, I think the biggest thing I remember. The first time I came home from Western would’ve been Thanksgiving. I don’t think this was necessarily Western, I think it would’ve been wherever I’d gone to school. But I remember being home, and you know you’d meet back up with your high school friends, but I remember thinking I really don’t belong either place. Western is where all my friends are now, but it’s not home. But my home, my friends aren’t here they are all at different colleges. My parents, my family’s there. But it’s kinda like, where do I really belong? I just remember thinking, it’s just strange. It wasn’t even bad. It was just a different thing. It was like all of a sudden you realize, ohhh I’m kind of like an adult. Or you know this is what maturity is. I’m not sure I ever thought on that level. But I just remember thinking hmmm where do I really want to be. You know I’m just between two different places now. BL: Yeah DN: But it was kind of a good thing. The longer I was there, you know going from freshman on up to being a senior there’s a lot of maturing that goes between those grades. You know you just feel the complete independence. I think the longer you’re at any school and you have to go register and you have to go to your advisor and the teacher’s don’t talk to your parents. So, I think that independence that became clear gradually. And you realize oh yeah I can make it in the world. You know I can go to all these places on campus and do this and do that sorta thing. BL: Yeah… Do you think that came with the gradual restriction like…as you moved into upper classman status do you think that’s what… DN: Yes, yeah. Absolutely I would definitely say that. You put it into good words. I don’t think it was something that was ever spoken but I think it was a gradual thing. I think it was very smooth. I’m sure some other people you interviewed have told you, but as freshman we really had to wear beanies. BL: Yes! Tell me about the beanies. How did you feel about those? DN: (laughter) It was the craziest thing looking back. I mean it was serious and if you were a freshman and you were caught without your beanie, I mean you got like…I don’t know if we had demerits or whatever the thing was. I mean it was like big time stuff you know. I remember one time I had a health class early in the morning, and I kind of overslept. So, I just kind of got up and threw some clothes on and I didn’t have my beanie with me. And I was just like freaking out. I knew I couldn’t be late to class so I didn’t want to go back. But nobody caught me and stopped me. I think that sort of thing, as far as really being adamant about it was just first few weeks, and then nobody cared anymore. Football started, so you know it was a whole new world. I do remember that. I also remember I had to take an elective and there weren’t a lot left. So, of all things I took archery. And it was at 8 o’clock in the morning. BL: Oh my gosh! Nix 11 DN: I remember that because of the fog. So it was not a smart thing for an archery class because it was outside. So, you couldn’t see the target a lot of the times because of the mountains and the fog. That just made it funnier. Cause we weren’t any good. We just had a good old time. But, I do remember that too. (laughter) BL: That sounds really interesting. I’ve heard from some women, you know, who were excited to have the beanies, because it told all the guys that they were new on campus. DN: Uh-huh. BL: And most of the guys said they just didn’t like it (laughter) DN: Yeah, I do think, I agree with what the other girls said, and other ladies said. A lot of times if a guy wanted to flirt with a girl that was the perfect avenue. You know. Oh I see you remembered your beanie today, I’m checking on you. Or something like that. It was an easy way for guys and girls to meet each other. So that was a part. It was just looking back it didn’t have the little spinning rotor blade on top of it. (laughter) But it was not an attractive thing at all. But it was kind of a fun thing. It was one of those rights of passage I suppose you go through. BL: Mhmm. I’m sure that they, you guys got some good pick-up lines with the beanies. DN: Yes! Yes! (laughter) Which is kinda pitiful idn’t it. BL: No not really, cause there’s no pick-up lines that happen here (laughter) not anymore. No good ones at least. (laughter) So, when we were like talking about this transition from, you know, like moving out of high school and moving out of your parents’ house to college. There’s this term that’s thrown around during this time called in loco parentis. DN: Uh-huh. BL: Used to describe like the university’s authority, meaning like it’s in place of your parents. DN: Right BL: Did you feel like that was a really strong thing? Like pushed my administration, or a criticism pushed by students? DN: Gosh. I don’t remember ever thinking anything like that was bad. So, I must not have felt real strongly one way or another. I know that I had gotten, because, when I came to Western really primarily because there wasn’t a school in South Carolina that offered special ed. Of course they didn’t call it that then. Honestly can you believe, it was called special education, but there were several minors I suppose, or different areas of that. One was actually called mental retardation. Which is terminology that is certainly not acceptable today. But in those days it wasn’t considered bad. It was just the way it was. But, because there was not a school in South Carolina that offered it, I received a scholarship for the difference between in state and out of Nix 12 state tuition. … I think it was every semester, we were on the quarter system then, and I don’t know are yall still in that? BL: No, we are semester… like we are just two semesters. DN: And then summer school, yeah. BL: Yeah. DN: But anyway… I would have to go get proof that I was still a full time student. Every semester or every quarter. I can’t remember what it was. In order to maintain my scholarship for out of state tuition. So I had to go and do, and this was, the responsibility fell to me but I suppose it should have fallen to me. Even though my parents were paying for my college education, you know the lest I could do was take care of the paperwork. So I remember going to the business office then to my advisor to have them sign something off. Then just little things like that I remember doing that on a regular basis. They were buildings I didn’t go in a lot. You know you didn’t remember just going in there. But I remember having to do that to keep that scholarship. BL: mmhmm. DN: So that would have been, I guess it just kind of happened … that would have been a real transition into financial independence also, not really independence. But you know responsibility, fiscal responsibility I suppose. BL: Yeah, of course. Yeah, something people still don’t work their way into (laugh) DN: Yeah, you are right. You are right, yeah. BL: Yeah, so… you didn’t see a difference or you didn’t see I guess movement to. Or not even movement, just some kind of talk or articulation by women that was like against university administration, or their authority. DN: I don’t remember that. But it could’ve been that’s just something I don’t remember. Or maybe something I didn’t feel real strongly about. I think maybe possibly my connection with the dean of women was so strong. Not so strong, I don’t mean that. But that I felt that I had access to administration that they were very fair they listened to us. I don’t remember being disgruntled if that’s the right word to use, with any sort of thing like that. BL: Did you feel like, I guess I’ll jump to the student paper (laugh). DN: Okay. BL: So did you think that they represented women’s concerns as well. DN: I remember the paper. I wasn’t really involved that much… I wasn’t involved at all in it. Other than I got one and we read it. I just don’t remember anything like, we’re women we’re put Nix 13 down in the paper or the women weren’t given equal coverage. I’m kind of a Pollyanna. I just always try and dwell on the good things and maybe even back then I did. So if there were things that people were unhappy about, maybe I just didn’t feel that strongly about it. BL: Yeah, I’m only asking, so Charlotte Wise was the only female student editor of the newspaper during the time period that I’m looking at. So like mid 60s mid 70s. So I thought that was really big. So I didn’t know if you guys like felt a difference, she was the student editor in ’67. I didn’t know if you guys felt a difference with … DN: Yeah I don’t remember any. But I certainly would have known that and I would have been very excited that there was a woman who was editor. I mean cause even in those days it was one of those things kind of assumed that would be a guy doing. But I don’t remember where there was a big change specifically because I was not involved in that. But I think she would have been looking out for the women. BL: Mhmm. Yeah I definitely see a change, when I look back at the papers. I see a shift in not necessarily tone but I guess like coverage… DN: Mhmm yeah , coverage… BL: Yeah, or like more women writing in with like, letters to the editor. DN: Okay well, and that I don’t remember. I might have noticed it and we might have talked about it when I was there. I remember getting the paper, looking at it, and enjoying it. I think I remember they did a good job with trying to include the names of so many people. I think there was a survey often and they would put people’s names in. The more times people see your name in the paper, the more likely they are going to appreciate it and look at it and read it. I remember that sorta thing. I do not remember a specific change going from a girl editor. I’m sure at that time there was talk about it, and we would’ve thought that was good and cool. But the coverage, it makes logical sense that would’ve happened. But I don’t remember that. BL: Yeah, I guess just speaking about position so student body government only had men as president, vice president and so forth and treasurer sometimes. Occasionally secretary a woman would slide in. Did you feel like that was a big concern, like you needed to have a woman, or like… DN: You know, I did not. Again I think if you look back at the times that was probably typical of every college campus if you looked at their student government leaders. It probably would have been a majority of guys. I don’t know if Women’s House Government was instituted in order to women feel more like they had a voice in there, but not in the major part of it. You know, just kind of an off shoot. Kind of going with that, I don’t know if they had anything to do the mindset of why it was started. But, maybe that gave women a feeling that they had enough of a voice through that. That if they didn’t have an office, through one of the four main offices of student government, they still had a voice. Possibly that could have been it. If I remember women had every opportunity to run… generally if there had been a girl running almost all the girls would have voted for her. It still that lower school mentality you know, we’ll get one of our own in Nix 14 there. And often that’s the way people would have voted. I don’t know how many girls would actually chose to run. BL: Yeah I didn’t see any in the newspaper, but I mean that makes total sense and like …. I could see now why and how the Women’s House Government was so involved. And how I see it way more involved than the men’s house government. I guess with just activity. It’s like your little, it’s like a life like for you guys. DN: Yeah that’s a good way of putting it. I never thought of it like that. I do remember we took that thing very seriously. We knew that what we were going was important. Not earth shattering, but it was important for the people that were coming before us. So we wanted to be, you know it’s kind of hard as peers you know recommending some sort of punishment. I guess we always tried to put ourselves in their shoes and listen to what they have to say and that sorta thing. We did take it very seriously. I do remember that. Maybe what you said, maybe you hit the nail on the head there that men’s voice really came out in their power for lack of a better word was in the overall student government. So the Women’s House Government might have been a stronger more profound entity because of that. BL: Yeah, I mean I definitely see it. … This probably doesn’t matter to you but like looking back in the handbooks. Looking at the language of the men’s and Women’s House Governments, just their statements. I know the men’s house government. I’m not going to quote this, this is coming from memory. But it literally states their power and then your Women’s House Government was stated, their granted authority. So like it was given authority by the university administration versus the men having power. DN: Oh wow BL: I thought that was so compelling you know and it does speak to the times. DN: Yeah, and that’s very gender oriented and that kinda shocks me. Going back to not being able to wear jeans and slacks you know that was probably true of almost every college campus on in 1966. It changed it was a gradual thing but I don’t think Western was behind the times. I think that’s probably a really good way of putting it. I think that was, like I had an old typewriter and I used carbon paper. … But to us that was the latest technology. Like right now when, Bailey you have grandchildren and they’re going to say what you had to carry a phone, you know, what! It's going to be so passed that, and I cannot begin to imagine a couple generations from now what is going to be commonplace. So, it’s fascinating to think about it. … BL: Did you see any change since you were here from ’66 to ’70. And I know ’70, you graduated in ’70, but ’70 to ’71 was when they had gotten rid of all of the house governments, all of the individual different governmental organizations and made one big student body. DN: Oh, okay. BL: Did you see a change leading up to that? Nix 15 DN: I think I remember something or some talk about it yes. Looking just as far as structure being efficient and effective it probably made more sense. But I think that what you said really about the Women’s House Government was to allow them a voice. And then my the time the hippies (laugh) had kind of led the you know, started the rebellion, I don’t know the right word. BL: Well we have the women’s… DN: for change for women. It could have been ’71. It would have been a logical time you know forget the division they need to be together. They would have made sense, and I do remember it being discussed, and thinking oh it just makes more sense, you know this is kind of crazy. … BL: Yeah I was talking with the student body president who was … who wanted to do that in ’70/’71. He said he wanted it to be more a unified student body, like student body government. Because he felt everything was so sectioned out and there was no way that anyone could agree on anything. DN: Yeah BL: I guess he felt that way, because he was way more involved. The student government association rather than… I guess it feels a little more left out with the housing governments… DN: Right, Yes, yes. I think we pretty much had specific responsibilities like Women’s House Government, men’s house government as compared to student government. I think they tried to give lines. You know here’s what this group does, here’s what this group does. Y’all don’t worry about this, and they won’t worry about that, that sorta thing. It was probably just too much, and it probably wasn’t necessary. I think it certainly made sense to combine everything together. BL: So Dr. Pow, or president Pow took over I think it was, I can’t remember what year exactly. But I know that he became president while you were at Western. Did you see a change … DN: No I, or not one that I remember. I remember him coming, I remember that there might have been you know like a reception or something like that. I don’t know. I don’t remember as far as it affected me as a student in the classroom and a student involved in Greek life and Women’s House Government. I do not remember any changes, good or bad being made when he came on. BL: Yeah. DN: They might have been in the works. They might have been you know thinking, this is what we are going to do but we’re going to do a gradual thing. So it will be suitable and it won’t let feathers ruffle I suppose. I do not remember any changes when the presidents changed. BL: Okay do you remember any kind of feeling or emotional change whenever the college switched from a college to a university title? Nix 16 DN: I guess I remember more pride than anything else. It sounded better, we knew it was better for any time you’re at a school and they… that’s a huge improvement. That’s just a good thing. I just remember it being, wow that’s really cool. BL: Yeah DN: And just a lot of pride. BL: Well since you were in the special education, and the education department in general, what do you remember of your faculty and those relationships? DN: I remember with special ed I loved that field and I remember one class I was taking, when you think of special education you typically think of those who have a developmental, something mental, developmental delay. I remember taking some course, and it was about a lot more even the blind. I remember as part of our assignment or a project we had to read to the blind. We had to either do a book on tape, audiobook on tape that would go to the blind… gosh I forgot the name of the… braille … there’s an organization. BL: Yeah… DN: But we somehow worked with that and I remember that was so fascinating. Then we also, when we were talking about the blind like had to wear a blindfold and we had a cane. Can’t remember for how long it was whether it was a day or not. And someone had to be with us. But I remember it being a very powerful experience. I remember that specifically and I loved that. I thought it was very humbling. …I wanna say, I don’t think I did this. I don’t know if different ones did different things, but I want to say there were some students that had to go around campus in a wheelchair for a day or so. I just thought that was a wonderful, wonderful class that did that. I remember the Cullowhee public school, is it still there? Anyway there was a school that worked with the education department at Western Carolina. I remember this at, gosh it was probability of statistics. I don’t know if it was through education or statistics but we had to make a test up. We kind of, we didn’t do our student teaching there but we worked with some of the classes in some of our education courses. We would go to the school and we would work with a certain classroom. I remember we had to make up a test and then for probability in statistics we had to take each question. It’s amazing the things you remember. We had to look at how many people got it right, what was the probability of the statistics that if you got number two right you’d get number three right. Just all kinds of calculations with the results of that test. I personally found that fascinating to do that. I thought it was really interesting to see and realize that everyone missed or there was a high probability of missing one question, chances were excellent. The question wasn’t stated fairly possibly or maybe it hadn’t been covered enough in class. … I remember really enjoying that, that made a big difference when I did get in the classroom. The department of special ed, education somehow partnered with psychology, I had to take a couple of classes. There was one professor there, and everyone said this about him so I don’t know what crosses over from fact to gossip I’m not sure that I would remember his name. He seemed to take great pleasure in berating, eh I hate to use that word. But putting someone so much on the spot that he would bring them to tears, in front of the rest of the class. I just remember that. It happened, I mean not every class but it wasn’t unusual, and we would hear Nix 17 about it enough in another class. I don’t know if that’s some psychological study he was doing I’m not sure. I remember I felt that was kind of cruel. … I felt maybe he was trying to make a point or something. I don’t remember, but that’s a strange thing to remember also. I also remember professors… I always loved english and math those have always been my favorite. It’s always better the stuff that you like. I never particularly cared for science or history. But I had to take some science course and I remember I tried to set pretty high standards for myself. Or somewhat high standards for myself and still have a good social life. I remember in this science class I took the first test and did not do real well and I thought I had studied and done proper preparation and studying for it. Obviously I had not, I think I passed but it wasn’t a good thing. Anyway, it happened at about that time that I got a little sick it wasn’t major. I had to be in the infirmary. Is there still an infirmary on campus? BL: We have a health center. It’s not.. usually they ship us to the hospital if something’s seriously wrong. DN: Yeah, anyway I had to stay in the infirmary for a couple of nights or something it wasn’t like I say it wasn’t major. I remember having my roommate bring me that science book. Then while I was in there I like studied and studied and studied to the point I almost memorized the book or the chapter that we were on. Then I made a really good grade on that test. Then I had to decide is it really worth it to me, here is a class not in my major but am I going to spend that much time every time we have a test to make a good grade. So actually I pulled out my transcript, I can’t believe… I knew I was going to talk to ya. I was trying to look and see, it’s crazy looking back. I see one psychology course, … and I know I made a C. I just barely graduated with honors and a C wasn’t something I was real proud of. But anyway, oh and I took bowling too! Goodness gracious I had forgotten about that another great elective. So much fun. … I just remember those two things about that professor that would keep, he would ask a question and you would give an answer and he would say what do you mean about that. And keep on, and put one student on the spot for a lot of questions and that sorta thing. And then I remember being in the infirmary and I just worked with that crazy science book and finally I made a good grade. And I realized that’s what it took to do that. It was a lot. But it’s just one of those things you kind of just have to decide well is it worth it to me or not. … BL: So you brought up student teaching again, and I forgot to ask you this earlier when we were on it like forever ago it feels like. So when you were student teaching and you lived off campus did you have to apply to live off campus like through the Women’s House Government? DN: I think we did have a choice. Now we were still very much tied into Western. We had to do reports and of course we didn’t have a computer to send them on. But we had to send reports in and there would be a supervising teacher from Western and they would drop in on us at our school where we were teaching unannounced several times. Then the teacher that was at the school that was like our advising the one that we worked with really closely had to do a lot of paper work on us. I remember that. I was very lucky and had just the greatest maybe she was called the supervising teacher and the one from Western was the advising teacher. I can’t remember but I think supervising was in the… and I was at the lower school and it was in Asheville. I want to say it had white in the name of it, I can’t remember. I vaguely remember, I remember driving to it every day. But I had the greatest teacher she was awesome and I learned a Nix 18 lot. But we were still very much a part of Western Carolina. Although we were off campus, we had to prove that we had a place to stay. So we were lucky because Julies parents had that little apartment complex so we were very lucky. That was when we really felt like we were independent when we were not in the dorm any longer. So that was a real exciting time. BL: That’s really neat. Well, that’s all the questions I have that’s on my piece of paper. (laughter) is there anything else you’d like to add about your life at Western or Women’s House Government or like where it took you afterwards? DN: Well yes, let me think. I did go into education. South Carolina is different than North Carolina as far as the public school system, and I had nothing but admiration for them. But I did go into the public school system for one year and it’s a very different situation. I kind of found myself becoming a teacher I wasn’t proud of because I was willing to settle for less you know as a new teacher. New anything you want to go in and save the world I was surrounded by, not everyone, but quite a few faculty members who were willing to accept a less amount than I thought anybody should give to their job. Anyway I stayed in the public school system for one year and then I did go into private schools. We had two young sons, our little fellas were in private school. Then I started teaching at that private school. Started teaching middle school English for many, many years and became headmaster at that school. Now I’m an adjunct professor at a college in Sumter. All of those experiences I think were greatly colored in a positive way because of Western Carolina. I think the things I learned, the experiences I learned, the encouragement I was given. I just have to think when Western has a student graduate they just don’t have any idea about the seeds that they plant in all of their students. Even going back to that professor that I did not think kindly upon, who tried to bring people to tears. That was a great professor to have because that’s what I didn’t want to do. BL: yeah… DN: I think that my years at Western definitely played into my years of education. Particularly when I was headmaster and I would often work with the seniors. And I was like where do you want to go to school, and they would say well I dunno. I would say, well let me tell you about a really great school you know. I never got any of them to go to Western, cause they were always kind of still kind of South Carolinian driven. I think that it would be impossible to think that ties were broken when you left even though. Gosh I’ve been back on campus a few times, cause Dave my husband’s family lived in Canton, North Carolina … BL: Yeah DN: between Asheville… yeah…And I would say, oh I really just want to ride through Western’s campus. Then I was like oh my gosh! Where are we! (laughter) It should have improved and become modern and really nice and all that. It just always, even though I didn’t recognize a lot of places and it was new I still felt like yeah this is my college home. And there were great changes I mean great, great changes. Things that I remember being like so important to us weren’t there anymore, but then you knew there was a new place that was important. Yeah I think definitely Women’s House Government I can definitely see the advantage. As headmaster I started something with some of the high school students and it was called the headmaster Nix 19 advisory council. I met with them in the mornings before school and they were, I don’t mean to sound elitist I don’t mean that, but they were hand selected. They were nominated by faculty members and then I chose them based on getting a good variety of, a diverse group. We had a philanthropic project we had to work and raise money and give something back to the school and we bought many water fountains, which are quite expensive. Particularly the modern ones today. I would like to think that somewhere in my mind some of the pattern for that whole type of government with headmaster advisory council came back from the Women’s House Government. Because I did give them power and I let them make suggestive changes. A lot of things were changed, some big some small. Mostly probably small more than the other, that were direct results of those students. BL: Yeah I could see directly how that translated, because you were given rights and autonomy as a student at Western through the house government. Then you translated that to responsibility and rights for those students. DN: Yeah, and it was just a wonderful. I loved it they loved it. We just had a really good time, and got to know each other and talked what was on the agenda. No one else was in the room except those students and me and they knew what was said in that room stayed in that room. We talked about things that were really difficult and just different things. We talked about teenage partying, how many of them drank. I said I don’t want any names or any details but give me percentage. How many seniors drink on a regular basis you know. What do we need to do as a school. You know in high school you’re still very much involved in that part of their life. There were just a lot of really good things I always remember HAC, that’s what we called it, when they would come to my office. I would tell my secretary, unless I have someone else in here, show them in first off. Because, I remember the dean of women always did that for me.

Debbie Nix, who attended Western Carolina University from 1966 - 1970 and was involved in the Women's House Government, talks about campus living and social life during this time. She shares her perspective as a female student on a campus with gender regulations and restrictions on both male and female students. Nix discusses the importance of the Women's House Government at WCU and how it served as an avenue for women to express their concerns and needs.

• Creator
  • Nix, Debbie
• Contributor
  • Lawrence, Baily
• Format
  • Sound recordings
  • Transcripts
  • Interviews
• Type
  • Sound
  • Text
• Date
  • Date interview: 2022-02-24
• Extent
  • Duration: 1:10:57
  • Pages: 19
• Subject - Topic
  • College student government
  • College students -- Social life and customs
  • College students -- Societies, etc.
  • Nix, Debbie -- Interviews
  • Western Carolina University -- Students -- Social life and customs
  • Women college students -- North Carolina -- Cullowhee
• Location
  • Cullowhee (N.C.)
• Source institution
  • Western Carolina University
• Source Collection
  • WCU Oral History Collection - Introduction to Oral History
• Identifier
  • HL_HIST340-574_Lawrence_Nix_2022-02-24
• Repository
  • Western Carolina University Hunter Library