• Creator
  • Conner, Mike
• Format
  • Transcripts
  • Interviews
• Type
  • Text
• Date
  • Date original: 1973-03-13
• Extent
  • Dimension: 11' x 8.5"
  • Pages: 50 pages
• Source institution
  • Western Carolina University
• Identifier
  • GSMNP_Cata-Conner_Caldwell_1973_03_13

INTERVIEW . with L L 0 Y D C A L D W E L L in Cataloochee, North Carolina March 13, 1973 Mike Conner Interviewer ;)_ _ CGO f!o.sse+l-e_ -1-a..feJ 't.~ Tape 1-73 Caldwell Cas. J eJ.f e Jj. I- /3vfh S;t/r>J (3o .Y77JrJ, eCtrh .f'tde) ~ecJ: 3 "?~4 !p.s. .eo_o e i--J-e /1'2.._ S;c/e.; only (q;:;. 3o -'77;/7.) ~ ~t~P ARY l.t'>!':or ., !\, .,,.:! I t;. • GREAT SM O!·~Y MOUNTAINS NATIDt-./,L PARK KEY erial flush with the left hand margin is that of Mr. Caldwell. Material indented five spaces is that of the interviewer. is has been transcribed on a ter index numbers /000/ in ause it was not understood. are reference points. Wollensak 3M 6020 Tape Recorder. The the body of 'the text indicate omissions The counter index numbers (000) in the s has been transcribed verbatim et literatim. No attempt has been to edit any statement. Attempt has been made to put on paper the " of the speaker's diction as nearly as possibJ..e. the body of the text means that the recorder was stopped and again. PAUSE in the body of the text means that the left running for some time without audio being superimposed. GLOSSARY Tuan Is Was And an' And 'd Would Had 've uave Palmers Chapel s therein: CONTENTS (partial listing) B. Caldwell (10/14/1815 to 11/4/1864) Caldwell, his wife (5/27/1817 to 2/18/1891) M. Messer (11/14/1844 to 6/4/1936) istine M. Hesser, his wife (7/18/1847 to 2/15/1883) Page 1 et seq se Caldwell (4/10/1894 to 3/26/1904) 2 rley Caldwell (3/15/1891 to 3/11/1904) illiam Mitchell Sutton (8/31/1869 to 11/24/1922) illiam Harrison Caldwell (2/9/1844 to 7/20/1929) 3 Woody, his wife (3/28/1848 to 1/6/1929) c. Caldwell (5/9/1845 to 2/2/1916) 4 lotte Owens, his wife (10/15/1850 to 5/20/1935) ia A. Owen, wife of J. F. Owen (12/28/1828 to 9/11/1886) Caldwell (2/3/1879 to 10/15/1907) ley Bailey Caldwell (9/20/1938 to 12/12/1969) 5 Roscoe Caldwell (2/11/1882 to 7/26/1925) ge N. Palmer (Turkey George) 1/24/1858 to 1/16/1939) lice Caldwell, his wife (5/27/1873 to 9/28/1947) 6 lliam A. Palmer (9/11/1856 to 10/31/1927) rge Palmer (1/15/1794 to 1/15/1859) ly A. Palmer, his wife (1/24/1801 to 10/10/1876) ge LaFayette Palmer (7/17/1836 to 4/28/1910) y Jane Palmer, his wife (9/9/1841 to 11/22/1918) sse R. Palmer (6/28/1833 to 9/8/1895) A. Palmer, his wife (10/7/1884 to 9/11/1914) Palmer (12/20/1864 to 4/21/1925) er L. Palmer, his son (12/1/1903 to 6/lS/1929) Vess, wife of Jack Vess (3/9/1824 to 10/29/1859) dwell cemetery (location) dwell cemetery (location) on Asbury Trail (colored people - location) ave in Little Cataloochee 40 et seq 41 43 20 20 22 29 21 42 were identifiable from the remarks) \...___/ house mill graves schoolhouse £filiations and voting Page 7 8 9 ' 9 11 12 15 18 19, 19 32 12 16 22 23 33 32' 33 26, 31 27 31 : r - caldwell Page 1 -)'Interview with Lloyd Caldwe 11, in Cataloochee, North Carolina, by Mike 16f ~ ;( ~) ~) , March 13, 1973 Uh. We are now in the cemetery on the ridge opposite uh Palmers Chapel. Here's the grave of Levi B. Caldwell, October 14, 1815, November 4, 1864. It's interesting to note that uh still being spelled with a "D". Caldwell was a C-o-1-w-e-1-1. Right here's his wife, name on this side. Wife is Mary A. Caldwell, May 27, 1817, February 18, 1891. Now they-- What is-- I guess about the Methodist church. Might want to get on that. If you can see to read that. Put a shadow on it and see if it shows any better. Uh. The notation on the back side of the tombstone reads, "Members of the Methodist Church South. One of the first three families settled on Cataloochee about 1836." Speaking of the Caldwells. BREAK Elisha M. Messer, better known as Lige. You want me to read it? Yeah. Lige M. Messer born November 14, 1844, and died June 4, 1936. Father of the Will Messer that lived on Little Cataloochee. This is his daughter here. This is his wife. Wife of Lige Messer, Christine M. Messer, July the, born July 18, 1847, died February 15, 1883. oyd Caldwell Page 2 m not sure on that. BREAK this is my mother's sister. Go ahead and read it you can see it better 'n I can. A' right. Esse daughter of John L. and Annie Caldwell, April 19, or April 10 I can't-- I believe it's April 10. That's right. 1894 to March 26, 1904. The aunt of the one 's helpin' get this information. Yeah. (Laughing) I) BREAK Well I can't tell which one that is. What's this here? Uh s. J.? Yeah. Charley Caldwell son of S. J. Caldwell, March 15, 1891, to March 11, 1904. Oh yeah I remember this one. William Mitchell Sutton. William Mitchell Sutton better known as Mitch Sutton lived at the lower bridge near the old water gauge. Born August 31, 1869, Nov- died November '24, 1922. Well he He was the son of old man Saul Sutton Now did-- I notice this is Masonic tombstone. Yeah. He belonged to the Masons. va.LUWt::J.J. Page 3 Well, where did they, where did he meet, with the lodge? They didn't have a lodge over here did they? probably in Waynesville. Waynesville. O) And at one time so I've been told. See a lot of this land outside the valley here belonged to the Suncrest Lumber Company. He was a manager of that. Uh this Sutton? Yeah. Was Manager of Suncrest. And this other William Sutton here now that's Mitchell's, his son. I can remember when he died. Yeah I notice now we've changed to C-a-1-d on Caldwell over here. That's a - Yeah yeah. You see that is when they changed back. And. Mitch married a Caldwell. Uh huh. Uh. Let's move right over here. Daughter of William Harrison. Now that's, that's one of the old settlers now he 's Levi's son. Uh huh. William Harrison Caldwell, February 9, 1844, July 20, 1929. Made a notice that he was a veteran I assume it's Civil War. Yeah. I'm pretty sure he was, belonged to Confederate. Now this is his wife. She was a Woody. Susan Woody wife of Harrison Caldwell. Born March 28, 19- uh what is that 18- 1848, died January 6, 1929. I can remember both of them. Uh. Just a boy BREAK }) ) Caldwell And this is you say Glenn's grandfather? yeah. Andrew c., Andrew Caldwell better known as Andy. Born May 9, 1845, died February February 2, 1916. His wife Charlotte Owens. Born October 15, 1850, and died May 20, 1935. I can remember her but I can't him. Huh. And I believe that he belonged to the Union. I'm not sure. Uh huh. There's another cast iron (Doubled) And this is part of his family back here. Another cast iron tombstone. Yeah. I think that old cast iron was one that probably when this big one was put in They just laid it over there or something. Yeah. I don't-- yes see it's all gone out of here. It's made on the style of that one down there in that other cemetery. Huh. BREAK Uh. Julia A. Owen wife of J. F. Owen. December 28, 1828, to September 11, 1886. Now I think that was the mother of Charlotte Owens, wife of Andy Caldwell. Uh huh. Grudger Caldwell. Born February 3, 18- 18- 'n' 29 looks like. ' ,"'' Page s. seems pretty early. No that's . l879. Is it? Yeah I'm pretty sure. Died October 15, 1907. Son of Andy here 's the. last that was buried in here. BREAK back /090/ Uh. This is the last person that was buried up here. Riley Bailey Caldwell, September 20, 1938, December 12, 1969. of Lush Caldwell. BREAK Caldwell, born February 11, 1882, uh died July 26, 1925. I remember him. Uh huh. BREAK Another Mason. No I don't guess he was either. don't believe so. /096/ Yeah. that's Turkey George. Turkey George Palmer. This is George N. Palmer, January 24, 1858, January 16, 1939. .·. oyd Caldwell Page Q That's his wife there. His wife 's laid beside him. Alice Caldwell no wait a minute. Yeah · that's right. Alice Caldwell wife of George N. Palmer, May 27, 1873, September 28, 1947. 11) BREAK That's William A. Palmer. Yeah. William A. Palmer was uh Glenn's father? ~ight. Was the Sheriff of Haywood County. At one time. September 11, 1856, October 31, 1927. See there, see his wife 's not buried here. She lived several years after his death and she's buried out, uh, Waynesville, Canton, or sornewheres over that way. )) BREAK (Note: The interview continues at the old ranger station in Cataloochee. The interviewed and interviewer are looking at and commenting about photographs.) Now that's more work here. I forgot about that. Now I 's lookin' when we 's up there. See this? Uh huh. I knew it used to be a-- that was a balsam. See it's It was a what now? Balsam. Uh huh. Uh Fraser fir I think 's the right name of it. Well that gives you enough t~ there that you'd know it. '• ·{ · oyd Ca ldwe 11 Page 7 Yeah. That was a nice house • . see that was made after, see the yard's not been mowed, see the grass growed up. Uh huh. That house was standin' vacant then (loud radio in background). Now that looks like the house at Big Cataloochee. This one here. I believe that must have been a side porch to it. I don't know. That looks a lot like this one up here. Uh huh. Now them orta, them should be numbered and names. 'Course you got a file or something you can go to that. I don't have it with me. I don't think. I took them at W. A. Palmer place down on-- Here's the Caldwell place. Yeah I see (radio blaring) people lived there to the '30s. Uh huh. Is any more of that over in this section? Oh yeah, that's what they all are. That's the old schoolhouse right here. Uh huh. Now that's just like that was in the Asheville paper. I never woulda known-- this is a plainer one than was in the paper. Uh huh. I've never been able to figger out who that is there. Must have been a ranger I guess. &) Caldwell Page 8 · it was a Park Service man, he got on a tie. I've never been able to understand why the "Ns" are backwards on some of these things. Must 've been in the camera. Well, that's the way it was on the sign. The rest of it reads right. post Office, Nellie, North Carolina. (Muttering) /132/ Now that, · I've never seen this picture here. This is ~ctually a better picture 'n this is. That shows the church house up here. Uh huh. This what, I was going by on this-- What was that building? You know? That was supposed to have been on the Little Cataloochee. I was just lookin' at it. Are you sure that was on Little Catalooch? No I'm not sure they are. That picture and this one here are both identified as the oldest schoolhouse. But they are not, they're obviously not the same buildings. Now this is the last type building. Uh huh. You think maybe this was the earlier one? I believe that's what that is. Stood right down the hill below what, where the church house is now. Uh huh. Coming down to where the old Messer place was. Right beside of the road 0. 14 ht and shows this {142/ beside of the road. Now this one here I think was down below the old Messer house, which I think this is it, right here. Uh huh. ' . Caldwell Page 9' believe this. Yeah. I think that's it. Now that's another school supposed to be in Cataloochee. I don't know where that one was either. 1 know where it was. BREAK And I'll tell you where they had what they call it.that's on Caldwell Fork. Is it? Wh- what was the name of that one? (Doubled) You know? All I remember just Caldwell Fork School. See the Eason-- that has to be it. See it's just made out of rough lumber. Uh huh. And covered with boards. An' that's the way that un was. I know right where it stood. You can drive a jeep right to it. Now did they tear this one down after the park came in or was it gone before? Well it was burned up. Was it? That wasn't-- that wasn't the same one they burned was it? No not the one they 's talkin' about the other day. No. This one I would say would've been destroyed in uh)late '40s. Or first part of the '50s. Somewheres in there. This of course is Palmer Chapel. /154/ That's Woodys. Steve Woody place. I'd like to have /156/ But she shore don't look like that now. Uh. Caldwell Page 10 'Made the house. That's been hae a long time, even shows that field there north side of the creek. Now this is still standin'. That's a pear ~ Is it? Well good. Huh huh. this cedar still is standin'. Uh huh. the barn 's all gone. An' there's a little bit of that old woodshed Yeah. There's supposed to-- Here's what I was thinking about, when we were talking up there. The Steve Woody mill on the east side of Cataloochee Creek opposite the C. R. Caldwell place. That's right. Itve been told there's a, there was an old mill in there and I've heard the old people talkin' about it, I can't remember it. Now they said something about Jesse McGee mill on Caldwell Fork. WOJ aJ. I know right where it is myself-. Was it Jesse McGee or (radio blocked it out) BREAK Uh. They said that was the Jesse McGee mill. I don't have any pictures of it. Just pic- of mill well I don't have 'em with me to-- They've got some pictures of the millstone. Seems like what I remember of bein' told it was,Harve McGee but that-- still goes by the McGee Place I guess and that branch is called th' McGee Branch. Uh huh. Page u · t's that's supposed to be an Indian mound up on Palmer Creek. whether it is or not I don ''t know. t remember anything about that. o blaring) pick that up? It'll pick it up a little bit. to have been made up on Palmer? sorta looks like that up around the Turkey George place. It's up in, it's up in that area. Supposed to be. I anybody has ever excavated in there to see. Now you can get an idea of what these homesteads /(t-pl open. like when they was people lived there. And when they was farmed. /177/ Apple orcl'a rd back here. trees here. Uh huh. here. PAUSE there's nice picture. Uh huh. 11 Page 12 . I was trying to do a little developing yesterday and did a couple of these. Not all of 'em but Sam did part of 'em I did part 'em. I believe uh)who was it? I believe that Glenn Palmer told that uh all that most that lumber on the Caldwell place here was cut right there around the house. he was a boy then, he could remember that. See. I can't ber nothin' about when it was built except uh the people that lived I growed up. See. There's some pictures here of the~the uh/that mill up on Palmer Creek. see them. Used to be a ford there going from the road to the mill. PAUSE Jesse Palmer homestead. Uh huh. I can remember when his son Thomas Palmer lived there. This, if I've got it right this is a ford that went across the creek see, goin' up the creek, the house was on this side. So that 'd a made it right for that devn ford to go in over to go up to the mill. And now that's the mill ~ Them logs are still in there. ~.Clr?.. e.? Uh huh. Good. If they ever do any reconstructing they need to know about where it was. That was a long millrace too. That's-- that's another picture of the mill there. Uh huh. of the log here. There goes Uh huh. shows picture of it enterin' the race. See. Uh huh. It was a long one. it. That's it before it gets to the mill. Uh huh. ice? Ahh. It's probably ice. That was taken in December. That's where it's leaked and froze into ice. Huh. December 3, 1937. bottom pa.rt of the mill. Uh huh. lit- all. You can see there just post. Now the wheel that turned the right there. Yeah. boy here she is. That's it, just the way it looked. Now what I was talkin' about the other day that's that big wooden tank. The water. See the race comin' down here, right on in poured in the top. See now shows you the chute, the water coming out of the bottom of that, I they call that forebay or somethin5 like. Yeah. Forebay. Forebay. q,qhf- An' come OUt on down here, an' you can see the wheel PAUSE Page 14 Uh huh. That mill was supposed to have been there a long time. There's a story about the Loves uh having that built 'cause didn't have a miller down here you know an' the Loves owned all this land. They might have had something to do with the mill being started If I understand right what I've been told when I was a boy, an' seein' land deeds in this section, that practically all of this to the Love heirs. And they sold it out to get-- and had a mill or helped put it in to set pe?ple to settle in Uh huh. PAUSE even see this ladder of a thing right here. Uh huh. ' they climbed up on that they had a vault over. it. Lt! .fA ' boJ-Jt? 1?1 o J.. ~net) /219/ And raise that and that 'd turn the water out if you had to work down in under the mill. bp_~_ the water soon drain out of 'fore t~-- That's just the way she looked. this little side room there off here. They had that for say somebody to the mill, and the mill wasn't a runnin', they just set his turn of in this side, an' they would come and £rind it just set it back out, o.. plaine n.. little side room. Now this one it shows t:fte little p~ See the side room is at the end of this and then it was a little shelter right in front of the mill. Now that was a window. Now the mill loft was up where the corn ground was, right, just about even this window. Uh huh. S;tfe 2 o/ f(}fJrJ/p Jtl +h e!'Lc_ remember bein' up there an' you could look out the window. Now 4-E- was another ford that you could ride a horse across right close to the mill. B) -~. . • -·-·';,'1:.·-· · • -~ < ' 1 ,,, Page 15 . an' this picture here you could, you could take a wagon over Sorta rough. PAUSE these uh palings here? Uh huh. 's what the mountain people call 'em "palin's." They're split out just The park calls the boards "shakes." Huh. that that was the garden. PAUSE didn't have any idea there was pictures like that a floatin' around anywhere. Oh there's a lot of 'em over in the files. We haven't even begun to get a lot of them printed. I'd really like to have some of them pictures in this valley here. Uh huh. Well these pictures over there are mostly of the houses and everything that was over here. It's just a matter of getting them and printing. Yeah they uh. A note here Carson Messer mill on Smith Branch. Uh huh. I know right where it was. And Vick Smith mill at the mouth of Little Cataloochee. Supposed to have been-- yeah Vick Smith. I don't remember that one. Uh huh. Page 16 Little Cataloochee? That would be down yonder where that you know where that water gauge is? Is it /240/ t's uh only a little ways out where Little Catalooch runs in. Uh huh. like I've been told years ago on down,toward where the park line there was a little mill in there years ago. Uh huh. wouldn't be the one? I don't know. Were there any mills do you know of up in here that were overshot or undershot mills? Instead of the turbine mills? Carson Messer had one. Was it, was over? Overshot. But now I don't remember how the rocks worked on the inside of it. Uh huh. sma II one.. And the little mill that, at the old McGee place it was a SpaultHng (sp?} Oil. and it was, I think, it was a tub. Tub mill ~ what they call uh water come down in a chute and hit that hollow wheel. Huh. I want to get you to tell that story about Woodys and the-- 8) that schoolhouse. You know. I don't remember, don't know anything 'bout that one. Well I mean if you just tell us what you told us up here the other day, You mean about the schoolhouse? Uh huh. Caldwell 1 I've heard that. told that, uh they tried to ty said they didn' t have money and uh, some of got. together, and I think they had a with it and they,. 'cided to get rid of it. So the next day found ashes of the old schoolhouse. {Chuckling) they ended up with a new school which is still standin'. Yeah. . ' PAUSE You say you all" you all didn't go up in Little Cataloochee much did you? Hiking-- I mean you ' d have to walk. see. At that: period of time, you see I was just small Uh huh. ~<) \,) )100 uh you didn't visit around like,Jho way to travel like they do now. people in Little Cat area visited to a certain extent but much. Uh huh. But later on after ft. opened up, few people started gettin' cars then it wasn't no trouble they, they visited more then. Now where did you say you were raised up in here? You told me before. Uh. We lived at three different places. On Caldwell Fork 'n' then later moved back to Catalooch, Big Catalooch, 'n' later on my father bought the old homeplace there. Uh huh. Wh~ch was above that old schoolhouse. On Shanty Branch. PAUSE. \.J Yeah. more of them notes. That other boy takin' notes on an' if you had those. BREAK Page 18 · yeah, yeah I know where the graves is,that's what was handed down from older generation. Uh huh. they was, was killed in the Civil War. And what I remember bein' told, ld have been near where the trail goes across the jeep trail goes across And, after this group of outlaws or, Yankees or tever they was,went on through the, they went up there and picked 'em and carried 'em back to where the graves is now, buried 'em. That in uh, during the Civil War it 'd had to 've been between and '65. Uh huh. Well now where is that? 's on Caldwell Fork. That's on Caldwell Fork. You said they thought maybe there was one woman in the grave? been told that there's three graves there but the, the two was killedJ during the Civil War, so I've been told was one of their names was Caldwell an' the other one was Shelton. Uh huh. this other third grave I don't, I don't remember ever woman, or a man, or kid. It probably might have after these two graves was put there. Caldwell Page 19 Then there's supposed to be some up Little c ata 1o ochee. Either Little Cataloochee or Big Creek one but I don't Now I've heard 'em tell about that near Mount s same 5roup. I can remember the older generation referring Uh huh. that was outlaw bunch of the Confederate army or the Union I Well Kirk uh from what we've read, deserted the Confederacy, and then joined up with the Northern troops. And they were coming down through here headin' for uh uh ~.Jaynesville. come through so I've been told near Waynesville somewhere an' come through this area, Caldwell Fork area an' Cataloochee and on in through Big Creek and into Tennessee. Uh huh. And they, just about robbed people. They took a horse or anything to eat, and they 'd found able bodied men that wasn't in the service, find 'em they'd kill 'em. Now I've heard tales told that one they killed upl'1"e¥~f.o Mount Sterling Gap was named Grooms. And he played the fiddle. And they said they made him play the fiddle and killed him while he was playing an' they' s still a tune "Go to the Grooms" tune I believe they call it. Huh. My goodness. Now part of that might be so and part of it might be just added on to as it handed down to generation, probably part of it is. You remember anything else about uh about that time when, that you'd have heard from some of the older people '? l JP n1 . heRe.., Page 20 · this group comin' through here? th- durin' that time that, the most of the able bodied in the Confedera~ army. But it was still a lot of (_ children. And older man. They said they had to keep their, their cow, milk cows, an' horses hid out. huh. Put 'em back up here in the mountains. a.bov+ Oh boy. What about that-- talkin'/a cemetery that's straight up across from the Caldwell house up here, straight across the rid6e. directly in front of the old house lookin' ah north, just about , northwest. Now that-- that's just family cemetery there. It was and his wife buried there that, that had that house built that's standing. Tom Caldwell and his wife was named Lizzie. Uh huh. And she a Howell. They /287/ from over Cove Creek Jonathan Creek. And other graves there is his grandchildren. You say she is buried up there? Six graves up there. Uh huh. How many other cemeteries are around here '? it's several in the area. They 's one on the ridge above the schoolhouse. Now that's uh Doc Caldwell cemetery that's where my 5randfather. · It's five graves up there. Then the big cemetery at the And it's approximately 150 graves in it, 140, something Page 21 Little Cataloochee? up on the hill above the church house. I didn't know there was one up there. It's on the north side from the church house. hadn't hadn't anybody,. I wondered why there was no cemetery area. time today I' 11 go back up there with you.· go up there. of them tombstones now you can get some dates there. Uh huh. Oh I didn't know there was one up here. We didn't a cemetery? tne Palmer cemetery is above the barn here. Uh huh. the hill. And they's some older dates there. Yeah I noticed a little road that went back in that area. it's two on Little Catalooch. That I know of, one at uh at the church 'n' then Hannah cemetery is farther over off on a side road. Uh huh. Yeah. We've been back up in there. It's up you go up there toward Mark Hannah's home place and that plane crash. plane crashed about a quarter of a mile north of where the cemetery Uh huh. Where does that road go that goes winds on back around in there. Do you know? On past uh plane crash? Uh huh. ~, I i dead end way back there on Dude Creek. It went live there. Uh huh. some Smiths 'n' ,that that's all I can remember off that lived Now right down on the Mount Sterling Gap is another road went Now they was some families lived in there. Levi Hall. And Getting back to the cemeteries. They 's one old cemetery I where it's at. They say, so I've been told it wa~ some colored people And it's on the Asbury Trail. It goes up from the bridge there where the water gauge is. How close is it. up in there, pretty g,ood ways not too far. It's pr~y good climb. Let me shut that door-­BREAK When was the first you ever heard how far, how long this place has been settled up through here7 I've heard 'em say an' then, lookin' at the dates on some of the, the in the cemetery I'd, I believe the first settlers come in J in the 1830s. Uh huh. '40s one. Now when the Civil War started, it was pretty well settled. Uh huh. the people lived on Caldwell Fork, B~g Catalooch, Big Catalooch through yonder the Tennessee line. Uh huh. Well this this cabin that's in this have been built in 1840. pretty close to it by sayin' in 1830s. Uh huh. there's the Palmers was one of t~e first families, 'n' the Hannahs. So I've been told that the Hannahs was the in here. Uh huh. they was followed by the, probably by the Palmers, Caldwells, Where were Caldwells originally from? I don't know, I've always thoubkthey come from down eastern part state up that way. Uh huh. I've read the history on the, the Palmers. And they supposed to 've iginated up in Virginia. And the Caldwells 'n' Palmers both is descendent England. Uh huh. don't remember the name of the place though. I told where you where probably find that, it's in the history of Haywood County there ~ Mr. Alley. We've got that over there. believe that's the one that tells it in. Yeah we've got that over at the, over at the place at Gatlinburg. (Radio blaring) BREAK Page 23 a · You know anything about Levi Caldwell that's supposed to have been that cabin that was torn down right around here somewhere? Now that was one of the first settlers. That's uh the old original site that I remember bein' told was the hewed log house that stood .) the road above where the old barn is now that goes with the Hiram You can still tell where it's at. It's a mound there chimney fell down. Uh huh. That's supposed to have been the oldest house in Cataloochee. say it was one of the oldest. Now uh I can show you his tombstone, can tell some from the dates, when it was settled from it. Uh huh. about uh Methodists, Methodist church. See this is was up here. Uh huh. But right off can't remember the dates. (Radio blaring) old Fate Palmer place here. And I believe his father ) was named George. And. The only two that mar- I don't know whether they 's any more children or not but the only two that married 'n' settled, stayed here in the valley, was Fate Palmer and Jesse Palmer. And the Jesse Palmer place was up where theJthe mill was. Which was Sheriff Palmer's father. And I understand that he owned all that land in there which was given to his children. Huh. Page '24 old man Fate, he owned a big boundary down here is got the home place here and another one lower end of that big meadow up yonder. BREAK ' "-· ~- -•.. ·~- Now I think that this place was supposed to have been built by Fate's father, supposed to have been built by George Palmer. now that, that's probably right. Well now it's ~grave up here that name on tombstone. Uh huh. Well I've read that uh George Palmer and, I believe it was .) one of the Messers up here in Little Cataloochee married sisters. You know where that u~ that uh road goes on down past the church +hen.e 's o.. and on up that way an~ the log house on the right that's fallen down? old Cook place. Uh huh. Don't know it was a Cook or a Messer but one of 'em there these (Doubled) Come to me. You mean old man Fate Palmer. Uh huh. He married a Caldwell. And Coo~, I can't remember what his first name was but his last name was Cook. He married a Caldwell too which would descen- old man Levi Caldwell's children. Uh huh. Page '2s They did marry sisters. Then old man Will Messer, his wife was a Cook. And so when they sold to the park him 'n' his wife owned the Cook place, if I understand it right. Well now who who built that I mean whose barn is that? That last barn as you go on up the road there. that old jeep trail? Uh huh. uh Will Messer owned that property, when it was sold to the park so have been his barn. He owned it from there on out to th' Gap. There's one more place in between the old Cook house and this barn uh where John Burgess lived. Uh huh. There was a house right down below the barn wasn't it? There's part of a house. Remember you go to a, to, over a little culvert an' you turn right back. Uh huh. An' it's wet in there. That's right near where the old Burgess place. Well now where does that road come out or does it come out down in here anywhere? Yeah. You can come out down Palmer Creek. Uh huh. That's where we. What we done, we finished out a little in there up near the Davidson Gap where we can get a jeep over it, and then that hooked in to the old roadway on Little Catalooch, •and the o_ld roadway that went up Davidson Branch which runs into Palmer Creek. Wasn't but just about half a mile in there that we had to redo. oyd Caldwell . Uh huh. you can take a jeep all the way through there but it's rough, We couldn't get that jeep up there the other day. I (doubled} That rain that wet dirt. Now if you'd had chains on wheel you'd probably went on. Uh huh. seen 'ern stick up through there before. If we'd had this other jeep we'd probably went on don't believe you could without chains. Well now now what's the stor- I want to get about, about uh the way Nellie and Ola were named up in here. Yl/ho they were named for. that's something I don't know, whether they was named after a person, and old man Will Messer that operate a post office there when I was a boy be had a daughter named Ola. Uh huh. And I don't know whether it was named after her or not. I've heard somebody say She was a, she was a. sister to, would've been a sister to Mark Hannah's wife. Uh huh. I've heard somebody say that uh Nellie was named for one of Turkey George Palmer's Ah, I just started to tell you that. I can remember her well. She was school teacher. I believe she was near th~ oldest one. An' her name was !V'av.J w}) e}h e/'L.- Nellie. ~-- I never did hear nobody say for sure that that why it was named Nellie or not. Uh huh. Page 27 · think that's bound to be right on account of it bein' that kind of Now the post office that used to be here, the old Fate place. And time, it was ~ they had it down here at this other bridge at the old Frank Palmer place. I've heard my father tell about it when he was a boy. Uh huh. that, it was Cataloochee. You could see why. One of 'em would be called Cataloochee and the other two named Nellie an' Ola just a girl's I wonder why they had 'em. If there was-- I don't understand why if they were that close together why they would have one named Cataloochee and one named Ola just up the road here. I mean named Nellie up up this way. it was that way over most of the, these mountain valleys anyhow at time. It 's post office in nearly ever' place where it was many On account of see now the mail come in here when I can remember, I can remember when they carried it in a buggy. And I've heard my daddy tell about-- he substitute when he was a boy an' walked, and carried it over yonder at Cove Creek there was another post office there. That was near where the end of the pavement is. Uh huh. And later on they carried it horseback, an' then they carried it in buggiesJand after cars come out and they started carryin' it in cars. Uh huh. Caldwell Page 28 On t;l these post offices here stayed. ~ the people started mavin' And I don't remember which one they first uh discontinued whether it was Cataloochee or Ola but Nellie was the last one. Huh. Well now Jonathan Woody has got the post office part from one of 'ern I don't know which one it is. He bought it and he bought uh You mean where they separated mail? Uh huh. Yeah I can remember them little cubby holes. See them come in, the mail would come in in bags locked up, an' then the postmaster 'd take a key an' unlock it 'n' take the mail ou4 separate it an' if you was there she'd hand it straight to you. Yeah. Nobody there to get the mail she'd just stick it UR each one that had;boxlike where they stuck it. Uh huh. Well Woody bought uh said he bought his old horneplace that was evidently it was a log cabin on up past Steve Woody place somewhere. Yeah. Now he got that after I come back to work, that was, I remember that that was uh somewhere near '57. I remember when they hauled it out. ) Uh huh. f n J o + Cas s e J--f +1:. I That was up on uh I believe it on the /364/ Messer Fork. But the old ) name for it was Sugar Creek. What did Jonathan call it? Sugar Creek? I don't remember I just heard the tape, We've got to go on and see him again one day. ·::-·· Y:.~· ,.,.. .~ · Page 29 Now his daddy might 've lived there when he when he was first married an' housekeepin'. Now Jonathan's mother was a Palmer. A sister to one that lived here, that moved out when the park bought George. Uh huh. PAUSE Got any more notes there? Huh. Yeah a lot of 'ern. Ha ha. BREAK Yeah Fate built this house 'bout the time he got married. I was just lookin' to see uh)I've got the note on uh on who married who here but I don't remember. Oh do you know anything about that supposed to be an Indian grave on Indian Ridge here or Indian Knob? Yes I've been told somewheres over here. And I don't remember whether it's back towards the Indian Knob I know where the Indian Knob is. It's back at the head of Little Catalooch. Or it could be on that old Asbury Trail that goes out uh High Top, Scottish Mountain. Uh huh. Supposed to be Mark should know that. It's supposed to be along the old, one of the old old roads, that's not bein' used now. Old turnpike. Well that that would be back near High Top. Uh huh. "'i· . ~ ., ... Caldwell Page 30 Now that was the old pass where that Asbury Trail, where it got its name, was from a Methodist bishop way back in uh I believe it was early 1800s. (Radio blaring) And you see the Methodist Church they had lot bigger districts than they have now. An' they said that's the way he went from North Carolina into Tennessee. Uh huh. Over yonder at Cove Creek it it's a big sign there says something about the Asbury Trail. Just right where you come off from the hard top before you hit the gravel. Here here's a note says the Cook place was built about 1848-1850. About same time as this house and that Cook 'n' Palmer were brother-in- laws. Since you mentioned it I think that would be right well I know it was. Now you got any notE!S on in tha-- What I've been told there's one more Caldwell girl that from that Levi's family, that married a Bennett. They was three of those Caldwell girls one married Palmer one a Cook an' one a Bennett. And two of 'em was on Little Catalooch Cook an' Bennett. Uh huh. I don't know anything about the Bennetts we didn't have a note on that. Says Jonathan Woody was from Madison County from Spring Creek. That's right. I've always heard that they come from Spring Creek. And his wife was a Clemmons? Uh huh. I believe that's right what I've been told. B t2 --e ct 1<.. ·~-u--=-avef:l!. Caldwell Page 31 Side 2 We were talking about post offices. Says Nellie was Turkey George's daughter, was Glenn Palmer's cousin, and Ola was named for Will Messer's daughter. Well my guess was pretty close right, yeah. You know uh. Uh. Wh-. Somebody told us most of the people up in here were Democrats and they voted Now Cataloochee was just about hundred percent. On Little Cataloochee was a few Republicans. Uh huh. Where did they vote down in here? Was there a voting place in this, in this area? Up at the old schoolhouse. That's in (D<)ubled) First time I ever voted that's where I voted. That's one up here now. The one still standing. I know that, uh, they'd have two Democrat judges and one Republican. (Loud radio in background) And the Republican was from Little Cataloochee. (Chuckling) After they got down to it wasn't but just a few left yo~ see they had a f'Aec \Y) c..-J \Jcdl c.j votin' ~in here in the ~. Two or three years ago. Well I-- Four years ago. Governor Scott, North Carolina, was campaigning and he come here to Cataloochee. Yeah. To this area? Yeah. And they had uh I believe they was seven re gistered voters and they was all Democrats. !;'_-t<:'~tr Lloyd Caldwell Page 32 (Laughing) Oh. Glenn Palmer was telling us, we were talking about Kirks army. That: uh when they came through they came through and were hunting for Glenn's grandfather and said he uh he uh his father Glenn's father said uh said he had had six brothers that were killed in the war. You mean on his grandfather's? Glenn's father. Let's see yeah, he had six brothers that were killed in the war. Glenn's yeah, Glenn's father. Would it a been a brother to Glenn's father? Yeah. Uh huh. And that uh-- Glenn's grandfather fought for the North. On which side? Fought for the North. Now see Glenn's mother was a Caldwell. And I believe that's right, that, it's the way I think it: is. Was it his grandpa em the Palmer side or on his mother's side'? Must have been on the on the Palmer side. Yeah. Would the Caldwells go for the North? No. I think that's right. His name was Andy. If it was his grandfather on the Caldwell side. And I believe, if I remember right he was in the Union army. Uh huh. But after the war was over, now he had a brother. His name was Harrison. Was in the Confederate. And after the war, "one lived on one side of the creek 'n' one on the other. Caldwell ;; :f!""' ': · Page 33 They didn't get together much after that I mean (042 Doubled) far as I know there wasn't any hard feelin 1s or anything like that. (Chuck ling) But I believe, I believe that part is right. Now whether he volunteered for it or got caught in it I don't know. Yeah. Glenn said uh. He was tellingJ that. Uh. Yeah that was his, the Caldwell fought for the North and said must've been the Palmer the way they carne through said he was up on the Rill cuttin 1 wood or workin 1 with some of the logs up there and he saw Kirks army come through, saw 1 ern comin 1 up the valley and he got down behind the log and hid. And waited til they left. Now that's sorta the way that I've been told. Homt. Would that have been Glenn's father or his grandfather? His grandfather, Palmer. Yeah. That would've been old man George Palmer I guess. Uh huh. No. That 1d been Jesse Palmer. Uh huh. Yeah. It 1d been Jesse Palmer. Do you know anything uh-- He was tellin6 us about uh,the presiding elder up here at Palmer Chapel somebody named Sherrill, that came in here. Ever {058 cough) services. Evidently lived around here somewhere. close. Caldwell Page 34 u mean uh, the regular preacher? Back in the old days didn't they call Uh huh. j. "'(' \A/tl~ t~e..... Well .t-hey, Methodists operated uh. They just had different preachers. so long, and then uh Methodist conference-- they change 'em. They I think operate along same lines. I still go to the Methodist church and that's the way they operate. He might be there one year, two years, three years, then they, they are subject to change every year. If the Conference says they go somewheres else Uh huh go. But I don't remember anybody by the name of Sherrill. Said lived up on Johns Creek. And that some of his, his relatives started the S&W cafeterias. That's in Asheville. Uh huh. Well, that's bound to be a way back yon-- Now it's some Sherrills in Haywood County)and they probably could have had a Methodist preacher by that name back in them days. In fact I can't remember, been so long ago, any of th'JMethodist preachers that used to come up there they only had church I mean, 'bout onct a month. Uh huh. • Course they had Sunday school ever' Sunday. But in them days, in the early days they'd either walk in here or ride a horse. Uh huh. Caldwel then they'd spend the night with somebody and have church services and they'd probably spend another night with somebody and then they'd go back out. Uh huh. Usually the way the Methodists operate they, they have from three to four churches, they can go to one every Sunday. And some Methodist preachers has as many as two now. Well talking about uh the chapel believe you saia uh that that date 's when they put, that's on the roster of November 1929 that's when the steeple was (Doubled) I~ Atqh.J.. That that, I can remember when that was built. Uh huh. That's when they put the bell in the steeple on the Palmer church and underpinned it with rock. Uh huh. Now that was before they sold it to the park wasn't it or was that after? It was either (drowned out by radio screeching) I believe it was before they sold it. Uh huh (Radio screeching) Right about the time. Yeah we heard several stories on it. Somebody said that uh they put the steeple up and underpinned it with the money they got for selling it. But that wouldn't make sense to me I don't know (Doubled) That's possible. Now our family cemetery, that, where my grandfather 's buried~ when they bought ·the horne place,rny father and brother owned together. Lloyd Caldwell Page li · When they bought the place, most all these cemeteries was just on dlfferent .J places on the land. But later on when they went to checkinc the records 0 ·. ~ they found out it was a separate deed for that cemetery that, and to my knowledge that's the only one over here was that way. Huh. And uh. Our family ~took the money they, they finally sold uh and took the money that they got 1 and put a fence around the cemetery. Uh huh. Steel post and wire. Now it's possible that they could have done the church house that way. Uh huh. But I hardly think so. I, I halfway believe that the people had it done theirselves. Yeah I couldn't see 'em putting a steeple and bell and everything up after they had already sold. No not. (Doubled) That costs-- well the way money was in that time that, I'd say cost pretty good price. Uh huh. r:!. C·:-:: J i 1 And have that done now it would raise tne cost. down hea..e.. Well, they said, now the old Methodist church was eaelc up. below Bud Rice's. The old, that was a log building. Yeah. It used to be an old building there I think they had school 'n~ church too in it. Uh huh. Lloyd Caldwell Page 3T --rha-1-'I b f'eY'J Yeah. That thing, years 'n' years ago. And why I say that, back intny boyhood daysJ I've heard 'em refer to that little field there as ''school- , house patch." Uh huh. Well now where did you go to school up in here? Where the schoolhouse is now. The new one-- Uh Glenn Palmer told us that there's some people there that were almost murdered or something, killed up here at, and finally got up here to the old church, log schoolhouse, or church whatever it was up here. And somebody took care of 'em til they got better during the Civil War. Well I don't remember that. Now see Glenn is up in his 80s now. And the, during his boyhood days now he could remember lot of th i ngs that lot J better 'n I could. Uh huh. See a lot of that stuff that I remember is things that was handed down to Uh huh. And if a fellow 'd knewJwhat the outcome of this country would be here he coulda took notes on it, kept in a diary, 'n' he would have some information on dates 'n' names of people 1 n 1 lot of things like that. I wish we could find somebody that lived in here that kept a diary. But nobody dreamed during that time,that there'd be a park here, And when they went to moving out they discouraging-- Only thing they could see was to get on out an' start anew. Uh huh. , 'i.loyd Caldwell the most of 'ern now what few 's left would uh give you about of information that they could remember. (Radio screech) Uh huh. Uh. Glenn told us one time that he tau ~ht school believe , I remember hearing him tell about when he taught school. He said had 50, 56 pupils an' all of 'em but two was cousins and that the other two was brother and sister. That's right. (Radio screeching in background) . Uh, is this, are these your bees out in here? I know they said a lot of people kept bees up in here. At one time nearly every family that lived in here had bees but those out there now is some that Bert got hold of last year. Yeah he bought them, I believe from somebody over at Cherokee, They got a little honey out of 'em last fall. (Chuckling) Now Mark he had about,I think 11 or 12 hives when he moved. And old bear got into 'em I think tore two or three of 'em 'fore he left 'n' got 'em all out. Ha ha. You were telling us about moonshining up in here. Well it was a lot of it. That went on during the 20s. That's just like the old saying what corn they made they couldn't get it out an' so they + ~ e ~f. made it up where they could put it in a sack ~Aon a horse and carry it out. Ha ha. And which that, that went on, in about all ·these places here in the mountains during that time, Caldwell Well do you want to ride up to uh Place now if we're goint to them cemeteries we'd better Ha ha BREAK. Yeah there he is. You was talkin' about the moonshining, now I can remember it was dry, or supposed to have been dry, but still you could lightnin'. Uh huh. But now Waynesville is no better off than what it was in in them days except J J the tax money. (Chuckling) It's ten time drink, likker store and beer taverns in \~aynesville I guess it's 25 of 'em where you can buy legal beer. Uh huh. So they wonder where all the beer cans come from. (Chuckling) OK BREAK Uh we are up here now at the, let's see Palmer cemetery. The Palmer cemetery, just up above the, uh the station. I think it would be easier just to give you to give you the names and dates rather than try to him do it later. Uh. George Palmer is buned here. Uh. Fate Palmer built the uhJthe existing, the log structure covered over by the, the old ranger station. He \.las born January 1794, died January 15, 1859. BREAK Also George's wife is buried here the name is Polly A. Palmer born January 24, ltSOl, died October 10, lts76. BREAK Also buried here is George LaFayette Palmer also known as Fate Palmer. Uh. July 17, 1836, to April 28, 1910. This is his wife. And his wife is Nancy Jane Palmer September 9, 1841, to November 22, 1918. BREAK Also here is Jesse Palmer, Jesse R. Palmer, Fate Palmer's brother. Born June 28, lts33, died September ts, lts95. That's the first cast iron tombstone I believe I've ever seen. Aint' that kept? Uh huh. That's in nice shape too. ~- ~~,.,·.;~-~r~-·;~{~·:~~~:-··iffj~:Jft _,. Caldwell I believe that is his wife. Can you see that? Yeah. That's Mary A. Palmer wife of Jarvis>born October Wife of Jesse. Wife of Jesse. Supposed to be. OK. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah wife of Jesse Palmer, uh, October 7, 1884, September 11, 1914 BREAK Lived up yonder. Inherited the old mill from his father Jesse. That's Thomas Palmer? I -believe that's his grave. I'm not for sure. Which is right next to uh Elizabeth Daughter Daughter of J. R~ and Mary Palmer. Yeah. Now I can remember this one. That's Frank Palmer. Was son of Jesse Palmer. Born December 20, 1864, died April 21, 1925. This is his son here. Grover L. Palmer born December 1, 1893, died June 15, 1929. Yeah I believe it's 1903 on the first one. Yeah. December 1, 1903. Right you are. Kinda hard to tell. Yeah. There seem to be, there are several unmarked ones up· here. Yeah. Caldwell r~r:·~!:;~:~~~~~~-l~~i!'·~~~~~~~!~, ' ·:i;Page ~.~ $: .,·. ~.·. ~·' It's got a bunch of bees around it. I think we'll just pass that one up. (Car radio in background) Nearly all of these is Palmers or. Their mother was a Palmer and married (doubled with car radio) their children. You got any more dates off the sides ot them old ones? /MI<. Well we can get in here and work and see. BREAK What I've argued and told them about keepin' the cemeteries up. They 's getting level. Back 'fore the park took over, they was, just what little work was done was money made up from the church, and it was just a rush job, an' that's when they kept 'em mound. They'd take hoes and so torth. And just rake dirt close by and mound up the graves which I think would wash otf,over the years started the depression holes. Uh huh. That's where that's why, what we are talking about is the uh is kinda of a, I guess the sag down in here around grave of Sarah Palmer wife of George Palmer and Lawrence Palmer also~buried side by side here. BREAK Joyce, you might make a note that uh this cemetery the Palmer cemetery is~ is well the land here is eroding fairly badly. And. So they only worked once a yearJand there's going to be something have to be done because it's going to get in bad shape here pretty soon. Looks like. Cause a lot of dirt 's washing, washing downhill here. An' there's no fence up around of. What's here is pretty well fallen there might be some way to get uh get before it does all wash down it's going to keep up, since a lot of the tombstones uh the dirt from the base of 'em they look like they're getting over. BREAK A sister to old man Fate. What we are talking about is a grave of Ruth Vess, wife of Jack Vess March 9, 1824, to October 29, 1859. She married who now? Jack Vess. Jack Vess. (Radio screech) And she was what relation now to The best I remember what I've heard said that she would 've been a sister to old man Fate Palmer. A daughter of old man George Palmer. Uh huh. BREAK Now we are over here in front of the Palmer Chapel. Palmer Chapel. And this road goes where now? Went through up by the old Tynt Woody place to Bald Gap into Little Cataloochee. Now this, this '11 go past the old Tyne Woody place? r.. The old, not the Tyne Woody on the head of Tynt Woody, another Woody that lived up here. Little Catalooch near the old Cook house, and horseback from the Nellie post office to Ola post office. Uh huh. And this is, this is, this follows the creek .-t 'r\ c..,l-beside the creek ~ comes down. Yeah. Goes up this little branch, then through a gap of then gets back on the head of the Mossy Branch. Uh huh. Which heads up under the Bald Gap. Uh huh. And now this road further to the right goes up here to the cemetery for the church. Yeah that's it and I know where the field used to be. All right. You want to walk up there now? OK. END of recording.

This 111-page manuscript is a series of three “Interview(s) with Lloyd Caldwell.” The 1973 interview recalls life in Cataloochee with a focus on cemeteries and homesteads. The history was collected as part of the Cataloochee History Project that collected photographs, stories, and oral histories about families who lived in the Cataloochee Valley. Today’s Cataloochee Valley is within the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. While, in general, the Great Smoky Mountains region was sparsely populated, the Cataloochee Valley remained an exception. By 1900, the population of Cataloochee had grown to 1,000 residents living in hundreds of log and frame homes.

• Creator
  • Conner, Mike
  • Easterby, Sam
  • Gordon, Paul
  • Degan, Marti
• Contributor
  • Caldwell, Lloyd
• Format
  • Transcripts
  • Interviews
• Type
  • Text
• Date
  • Date original: 1973-07
  • Date digitized: 2015-09-22
• Extent
  • Dimension: 11' x 8.5"
  • Pages: 111 pages
• Subject - Topic
  • Cataloochee (N.C.) -- Genealogy
  • Cemeteries
  • Dwellings
  • Great Smoky Mountains (N.C. and Tenn.) -- Social life and customs
  • Log cabins -- Great Smoky Mountains (N.C. and Tenn.)
  • Schools -- North Carolina -- Haywood County
• Location
  • Haywood County (N.C.)
  • Great Smoky Mountains (N.C. and Tenn.)
• Source institution
  • Western Carolina University
• Source Collection
  • Cataloochee History Project
• Identifier
  • GSMNP_Cata-Conner-Easterby_Caldwell
• Repository
  • Great Smoky Mountains National Park