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  • Duration: 28 pages (transcript)
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  • Western Carolina University
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  • HL_MSS98-03_Crittenden_Smith_Smith_1986-04-29_transcript

Smith 1 WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA TOMORROW BLACK ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Interviewee: Reverend Joseph Smith Also present: Syrilda Smith (wife) Interviewer: Lorraine Crittenden Date: April 29, 1986 County: Jackson County Duration: 1:31:45 Lorraine Crittenden: Reverend Smith has your family always lived in North Carolina? Reverend Joseph Smith: Yes, as far as I know. I: Now, did your family always live in Sylva? S: No. There were times that they lived up, some of them, up at Addie, on farms. And then they moved down to Dillsboro. I was born and then we moved to Sylva, on the upper road looking down on the tannery. My people left pretty early in life. They lived so long and passed on. So, I have just about out-lived a lot of them according to what I was told, coming on as a child. I: As a child? S: Umh. I: Well, would you please trace your family tree back as far as you can remember. S: Well, as far as I can remember is the Dillsboro place where I was born, just the little Dillsboro. I: All right, do you remember your grandparents? S: Yes. I: What were their names? S: Grandmother Ellie and Grandpa Joel. Those were the names I knew of and just a chunk of a boy growing up and they passed on and I'm still here. I: So, you only knew, were these your mother's parents or your father's parents? S: Well, Grandma Ellie was Grandpa's wife. I: Is this on your mother's side or your father’s side? S: Well, my, on my grandmother's side, they worked on a farm up about Addie or somewhere up in that section. My grandpa, he came this way on the railroad, when the railroad was being up through from here to Murphy, from Asheville to Murphy. And he worked there. Smith 2 I: He worked on the railroad? S: Yes, yes he worked on the railroad. He helped build that tunnel down there below Dillsboro. That tunnels through that mountain. I: And your grandmother, his wife? S: Well, they married and they lived there at Dillsboro. Now, there use to be a time when there was quite a few blacks in Dillsboro but they all gone out now. I: I don't believe you gave me their names, their full names. S: My grandfather? Well, he was named after his old master down in Sampson County. I: Is that North Carolina? S: Yes, as a slave and so when they were freed then they heard about the road work you know that needed to be done to build railroads through the mountains and after he was freed, had brought him down up in this section. And he worked on this railroad that comes right through here. I: Now what was his full name? S: Joel H. Smith. I: All right, now that's your… S: Well, I went in the name of Joe Smith. My grandparents raised me and my actual father, I don't know who he was. I: Did you ever know your mother? S: No, no I can't remember Mother. She died before I was old enough to know about the family. I: How old were you when she died? S: I think I was about 4 years old. Maybe it was. I: Between two and four. About 2 years old when your mother died? S: Yes. I: So, you don't remember her? S: No. I: Very well? What did your grandparents do to earn a living? Smith 3 S: Well, as far as I know, they worked for the white people. I: What were they doing? S: Well, in some phases they were working and then there was my grandparents in there cooking and working in the kitchen. I: At the white people’s homes? Did they stay with any particular family, any long length of time? S: That I don't know. I come to know the old house hasn't been too long ago torn down. It was just down below Dillsboro a little ways. It was a house located right beside of the railroad, the rail went right by the house. I: In Dillsboro? S: Yes. I can remember that but, and I do faintly remember when they left there, they got a wagon from somewhere and moved up on what we call an upper road down the flats. We lived up there for quite a while and Grandma died and my uncle he married and built a home and took us in, to his home. I: Where was this home located? S: Well, do you know the Fredrick Love House that use to be there in the flats? Yeah, the old house was torn down. I: Did your uncle ever work for the tannery or was that before the tannery? S: Well, he worked in the tannery but I don't know when the tannery started, I really don't. I: Did he own this home? S: Yes, yes. I: Was it one of the company houses or was it his house? S: His house, yeah. I: So, your uncle married and took you and your grandfather to live with him. S: Mhmm. I: Do you remember how old you were when you went to live with your uncle? S: No, I don't. I: What was your uncle's name? S: Clarence. Smith 4 I: Clarence Love. Now as a small boy do you remember that your family was had many hardships because of the lack of money or were they better off because your grandfather worked with the railroad and your uncle at the tannery? S: Well, I don’t know so much about that. My grandpa, he came up and worked on this railroad and went through that tunnel out there and then he cut off and decided that he would drop out on the gang you know and he married my grandmother so there he was. I: Do you remember having the things that you wanted as a child? S: Well, they gave me as best they were able to afford and that wasn't too much. I: That wasn't much even though he worked, so working on the railroad wasn't considered a good job? S: Well, it might have been a good job, but it didn't pay much back then. I: It didn't pay much? S: No. I: So, your grandmother, did she ever work outside the home? S: To my knowledge, I don't know. I: You don't think she did? S: I don't suppose she did. I wouldn't be perfect about that because I was just a child and didn't know about who they worked for. I: Well, when your uncle was working for the tannery was he making a good living? S: Yes, yes he made a good living. I: He made a good living? What about food and clothing, where did this come from? S: Well, he supplied, he supplied the needs of the home there. I: So, he didn't raise all his food? S: Well, we farmed some after I grew up enough to work on the farm. I: You farmed? S: Mhmm. I: So, your raised much of the food that you had to eat? S: We raised quite a bit of it. Smith 5 I: And what about your clothing? S: Well, my granddad, he managed to supply my clothing. I: Was it store bought or made by hand? S: Store. I: Well, what about education during those times? S: Well, when I got old enough to go to school I went to school as for quite little while. I: Now, where was the school located? S: It was located just a little back of the church there on an old, where the church stands now. The old church was just behind it out there. It faced the railroad and most of the people below here walked the railroad up and then crossed on foot log and went to church. We had school in the same building. I: That you had church? S: Yeah. I: Your speaking of the church on the present Scott’s Creek Baptist Church? S: Yeah, yeah, it was an old one room building, of course they finally added another room on as I grew up. But it started out with just one room and three months teaching. I: Three months of school? S: Three months of school. I: What did you do the other nine months? S: You worked on the farm. [laugh] I: You worked on the farm? What was the highest grade that you could get at that school? S: Oh, about the 8th grade. I: Eighth grade? Now, I know that you are a minister so, obviously, you've had much more education. S: Well, I had to jump out quite a bit to help work when I got old enough to work. So, I didn't get to do all my schooling year that I could have but I got what I could. I: Where did you get your schooling? S: Pardon. Smith 6 I: Where did you get your schooling? Other than at Scotts Creek. S: I studied some in Asheville and stayed with a minister for a few years and got a lot of information and counsel from him, being a preacher of the gospel, Reverend Wilson. He married into the family. I: Your family? S: Mhmm. His daughter was my auntie by marriage and I grew up then and went to Brevard and spent a few years with Reverend Wilson. I: So, you had moved from Asheville to Brevard? S: Yes, mhmm and I: Did you go to school in Brevard? S: I was staying with him back in the twenties I believe, that was the thirties wasn't it, when I married my wife. Syrilda Smith: [inaudible] At eleven he was working for himself. I: At eleven he was working for himself? SS: Isn't that right? S: Yeah. I: And you bought your own clothes? S: Oh, yeah, yeah, I: And then after you went to school here as much as possible, you went to Asheville and you studied there until…? S: Well, I left here and went to Brevard and stayed with a minister over there. Later, I went to school somewhere in Asheville. I: Was this a public high school or what kind of school was it? S: Well, it was a kind of church related school. It was Presbyterian church. I: And it was run by the church, or did the state have anything to do with it? S: By the church. I: Who hired, who paid the teacher in this church related school or did you volunteer? Smith 7 S: Well, I don't know who really paid the teacher but there was times that we were called upon to make some sacrifices and we did, What few students of us that attended that school. I: So, you had to make sacrifices to help pay the teacher? S: Yes, yes we had to give something in other words it wasn't free gratis. I: Right. After you finished school in Asheville what did you do? S: Well, I was in the ministry coming along at the same time and in those times I served a few churches. I: Well, how old were you when you started being a minister? S: It was somewhere long there about 18 or 19 years of age, somewhere along there. I: Now had you met your wife at that time? S: Oh, no. I: Oh no. S: I hadn’t even met her. But it wasn’t long after that until I was called to the church that her parents belonged to in Mas Hill and I served them for 58 years. I: In Mars Hill? S: At Mars Hill. I resigned that church the third Sunday in the last month. And I served a Sylva church here for what was it, 51 or 52. No 54 years. I: So, you served two churches over half a century? S: Oh, yes. I: No, where the church services at different times? How did you manage two churches? S: Well, this church here it only had preaching services twice the month and same way at Mars Hill. We were there first and third Sundays and here second and fourth Sundays. I: Now did you have morning and evening services? S: We had morning, afternoon, and evening. I: So, you stayed in church all day. S: All day. I: Sunday school and [inaudible] too? All in one time? Smith 8 S: We gave the Lord his dues back in those times but there has been a great turn around. Great turn around. I: Well, now, did you make enough as a minister to support your family in those days? S: Well, we married (When was that honey)? Wife: 1936. I: You were married in November 1936? S: Mhmm. Yeah, begin preaching there in 1928 and then we married in 1936. I: So, that's why the parents tell us to make a good mate go to church. What was your salary as a minister then? S: Well, we hardly had a salary. It was just a matter of the people gave liberally of what they had at that time. Oh, I've been given potatoes and beans and cabbage and pumpkins and oh, Lord, you name it. Yeah, yes sir, I had to eat just like everyone else. I: Right. S: So, times were a little tough back then. I: Oh, well, what about your home? S: Well, after I took those churches, I left Brevard under a minister there Reverend Wilson. I was serving at that time, now he was my auntie's father. And so I stayed quite a little while with him and entered the ministry and was called to the church here and Mars Hill. And we stayed with him for a number of years. I: Now how did you, did you have a car then? S: Well, not until we begin to climb up a little in the ministry. I: So, how did you get to these places before you had a car? S: Well, by the time that I took the churches, I had one. I worked for the town of Brevard for about 7 years. I: Oh. What did you do there? S: Well, I worked for the town. I worked for the town. I: What was that collecting garbage or what were you doing for the town? S: Well, we had to keep the streets clean, wash them off with water you know. We didn't have these tanker truck like they have now to wash streets with. But we had to repair all broken lines of water Smith 9 coming into the city and just in general building water works you know. Wherever they were asked in the city corporation. It kept you busy. It's a growing little city but it was a busy one. I: So, you earned enough on that job to buy a car? S: Oh, yes. I: Well, had you built a home then? S: No, no I hadn't. I: Were you still living with Reverend Wilson? S: I'd go over to see him, but I spent most of my time over here since it was my old home and kind of pulled out then and spend a lot of time over here. now. I: So, you built your first home here in Sylva? S: Yes. I: This is your first home? S: Yeah, this is what we started out with. I: The homes were built much better then don't you think than they are now? S: Pardon. I: The structure. S: Yeah. I: The structure was much stronger than what we have today. S: Probably so. I: How long have you been in this home? Wife: We lived here in 1944. I: That's over 40 years. So, when you first married you stayed with his uncle and then bought the land out here and built you a home. That’s amazing. It's a beautiful structure. S: Well, the Lord sent me his blesses, we certainly have enjoyed this little location. We're getting pretty well surrounded but. I: Well, I'm sure the minister, at that time were there many people in Sylva that you had to serve? Smith 10 S: Yes, ummh, Quite a few. I: Now, other than the sermons, what were your other duties? S: You got a lot of invitations from other churches to go and speak to them. I: Other than your ministry. S: Oh, other than my ministry, Well, I worked. I worked some downtown here. I: Oh. S: And just before Mead Corporation rolled out this little papermill down here, I worked for Mead. I: So, you worked for Mead during the week? S: Yeah. I: And then on Sundays you ministered. S: Yeah. I: Now, were you often called to family’s homes in the community if someone were ill or anything of that nature. S: Oh, yes, yes. The first car that I ever owned was a little old A Model Roadster. I don’t know whether you remember them way back there in the 20s ‘29 and somewhere long in there. They had a little old rumble seat in the back of it and an enclosure in the front and I could take two people when it wasn't too bad you know, the weather wasn’t too bad. Haul them in the back and let the two up in the front. So, that was the way we kind of had to tag along, in those times. I: So, did you have to go to the homes when, if a church member or anyone was ill? S: Oh, yes. I: You went to the family? S: We went and visited the family. If there was any help that we could be to them we certainly supplied that. I: Now , during the earlier days did you christen new born children? S: Oh, no. I: So, that wasn't a custom practice then? S: No, umnh. Smith 11 I: Now, I understand that the funeral services were a bit different than they are today. S: Oh yes, yes. I: Would you describe them for me? S: I can remember when they didn't have hearses like we have now. The old church standing near where the present church is at, I've seen them come up the creek there and cross the creek, there was a fording place just in front of the church there. The wagons would have to bring the coffin in and take it off the wagon and put it in the church and then bring it back and put it on the wagon and go to the cemetery. I: Where was the cemetery located? S: Well, we had one up here we called Old Field and we have one just across town called Paris. I: Now where is the Old Field? S: Old Field, it's up this way. Up in the Beta section. And the Paris was over in the west section of Sylva. And these cemeteries were given by the old slave masters for the blacks to bury in. In fact we were connected with the whites. They had their section and the blacks had their section. I suppose it's been that way all out this Murphy line, but now after so many years things made a change and they've bought great plots you know and laid them off for people that wanted to have a burial place there. So, out on the Cullowhee Road, in the Fairview section, quite a few blacks now is located in that cemetery. You pay so much and take care of so much and they turn it over to you and when your time comes they bury you. I: Now, during these early age was there embalming? Was embalming a practice? S: Well, yes. I don't know anything about embalming before I left here to go to Sylva. I mean to Brevard. But I do find it was only at Brevard was when I first noticed the bodies being embalmed. I: Do you know approximately what year that was? S: It was back there in the twenties. I: In the twenties? S: Mhmm. I would say somewhere back there about ‘24 or ‘25, in there. I: Did you have the wakes then? S: No, I don't recall. It was after they began to move the issue of a plan of embalming in those days and they, funeral homes came about and you can go and be with the family at the last night of the, just before the burial. That was the ways I remember it. So. I: But before the funeral homes, what the custom? Smith 12 S: They had to keep them in the homes. I: They were kept in the homes? S: Yeah, and the most of the coffins were hand made. We use to have a minister by the name of Reverend [Noah] Cox. He lived here for a number of years and he passed on. But he could make a coffin. Oh, we have noticed him at night with a lantern or lamp light if the wind wasn't blowing he would use a lamp. And sometimes he'd have to gather a lantern or two you know and he'd saw and cut and he would nail together and fasten this and fasten that and first thing you know he, then he would stain it. Make it look kind of nice. That was the way and method when back there in the twenties. I: Now was there any kind of cushioning inside of the coffin then? S: Yes, they put cotton in there. I: Cotton in there? S: Ummh, yeah, they put cotton in there. I: So, since there wasn't embalming, how long was the body held? Whereas now we keep it three to four days? S: Well, it had to be handled pretty quickly on the, especially in hot weather, because the odor you know would soon go out and be offensive. But had more winter seasons of the year the better they could be kept, you know without having to be rushed in a burial. I: Thinking back, do you remember anything that happened in Sylva or Mars Hill that affected a lot of people in the communities such as maybe a flood or an epidemic of any kind? S: Well, I do remember the epidemic of the flu when it came through, way years ago and we lost quite a few people, back in that age when that flu raged. I was just a boy, living alone, and just kind of faintly remember a few things about it you know. I: What did people do to protect themselves from getting this flu? S: Well, a lot of people, we had a lot of good grandmothers and mothers that knew how to make teas and break up [pine bark] or pneumonia fever and all like that. We'd depended largely on them because it was meaningful to us. I: The teas? S: Mhmm. I: Do you remember that doctors were able to do anything to stop it or arrest the flu for? S: Well, when I was just a boy, before leaving here to go to Brevard, if a doctor got to you, he came to you on a horse, no cars. No sir, no good roads. that was the condition. Smith 13 I: Did most of the doctors live in town? S: Yes, mhmm. I: Would it take a while for them to get to a say for example, where you lived? S: Well, they generally responded pretty quickly, when there was sickness in the family. Now, sometimes we would have to wait because they were waiting maybe the doctor was out among the white people, doctoring there and you just had to wait to your turn came. Let’s see when I was a boy there was big Dr. Littles and little doc. There were two doctors, brothers, and one called Big doc and the other little doc. And there was Dr. Hooper and Dr. Candler. Those were some of the leading doctors when I was just a boy. So, in late years they got the hospital and there are quite a few doctors up there now and doctors are doing a good job. I: Well, in the earlier years were blacks allowed to go to the hospital? S: Yes, they made provisions for them over at cross town on the hill there above the courthouse. That was the first one and they went along there for years and finally built this one up here. I: Now, were the rooms in the hospital integrated or segregated or what? S: Oh, they were segregated. I: Was there a wing for the black people and one for the white or were the rooms just mixed? S: Well, they are now but they weren't then. I: So, there was a wing for black people? S: Mhmm. I: Did you notice a difference in the wing for the black people and that for the white people? S: Yes, I, it was, it wasn't a large building that they had the first one there in town up on the hill. I've known them to in places put them in the basement, that's happened over here at Franklin and several places around. I: Did they get the care that the white patients got? S: Well, now I wasn't in too close to follow up there on things like that. I went over at times to see somebody that was there, but I wasn't there myself to be in the hospital. So, it was coming through the [riot] at that time and they just didn't have the place to offer like they can now. They gave you a very different decent room now and seem like well cared for and concerned about. So, it's a whole lot better than it used to be. I: What other, let’s get back to the religious customs. Do you remember any other customs that you had in your younger days that you don't have now? Smith 14 S: Pardon? I: Any religious customs, for example, I've heard of May Meetings. S: Oh, yes. I: Were there other church customs that you had then that you don't have now? S: Well, that is one, I remember the May Meetings. People use to just run and rush to get to them but after so long things begin, I reckon the reason of it was maybe the older ones passed on and the young ones just didn't pick up. I: But in your earlier days that was an exciting day, a special time? S: Oh, it was, yeah, they put great emphasis on it, I: What was the purpose of that May Meeting? S: Well, I reckon, I don't know exactly but I just suppose that by going through the winter, and the spring of the year opening up, kind of aroused them to the fact that they give the Lord some praise for… I: Getting through that year. [laugh] S: Getting through that year. We had some rough years back then. I: Well, what happened other church services on that day? Was there any other kind of entertainment that day? S: Not to my knowledge. They met there to serve the Lord and those older ones, they served him, Now, the younger ones, they, I: Did you have dinner on the ground? S: Yeah, yeah, they had that on the ground now. I remember that mighty well. Dinner on the ground. I: Did all the women go out of their way to show, I'm the best cook? Was there any sort of competition like that? S: Well, I don't know of any but they prepared some mighty good food after you were there an hour or two you'd be glad to eat a little bit if you could find. I: What about religious customs in the homes? Have those changed much? S: Well, there has been a turn around. I can remember when homes use to be mighty sacred. Their older parents, they were mighty concerned about the children, young people growing up and every time you met they had something good to say to you and try to cheer you up to hold on and be faithful that you'd be rewarded after a while. So, that's one thing that we have that would be nice if we had more of it now. But you see way back there, there wasn't so much to go to. Smith 15 I: What did you do for entertainment? S: Well, people would visit one another and talk and they just didn't have the time like we have now you see. When you worked on a farm your worked from sun to sun and when you got home and got a little bite of supper and fed the hogs and the mule, the horse or whatever it was you just about felt like you was ready for the bed, But we live in times when different occasions can bring us together right quick, good roads, cars, what have you, go from here to Asheville and spend half of the night and come back home and jump in the bed and jump up early the next morning and go to work. I: Did you have family reunions then? S: Yes, there was family reunions. They were. They certainly believed in serving the Lord back then. I: Was there a minister always invited to these reunions? S: A minister? I: Was a minister always invited to the family reunion? S: Well, to my knowledge they were. They made sacrifices and went around and visited those occasions. They certainly enjoyed meeting and sharing such an occasion. I: Do you think the family reunion was stronger then? S: Well, I do believe that they were more deeply concerned about religion than we are in the times in which we are in. I: Who were the respected leader of the community? S: Well, for one we had the school teacher, that taught over at Webster for quite a number of years and then he passed while he was serving this school here in the community, I: Do you remember his name? S: Mr. John H Davis. I: Was that Professor Frank's father? S: Mhmm. I: Oh! So the teacher was looked up to by members of the community? S: Oh, yeah, yeah. I: Anyone else? S: Well, that's a long time to remember all that, it’s done gone by, Smith 16 I: I remember growing up it was the preacher and the teacher. Those two. But also any other adult who corrected you. You listened because in the community everybody took care of everybody else’s. If aunt Lizzy said don't do that, even though she wasn’t really your aunt, you didn’t do it. Do you see the families changing and the community is changing? S: Oh, Lord, yes, yes things are turning around. I can remember when I was a boy growing up and all get around some of the old ones and we children would get to playing and hollering and kicking up a lot of racket and they’d call you down right quick until you'd be quiet and you calm down, you making too much racket. And so, a lot of the boys that, they just, after they grew up some, they didn't hardly care because the parents didn't chastise them, train them like they ought to and therefore they got a little careless and unconcerned. But if the older ones back in those days saw you doing something unbecoming or what they thought was unbecoming they'd tell you right there, I'm gonna tell your parents when I see them. And they'd tell them too. Yeah, they'd tell them. I: In most communities there was usually one woman who went around to the sick to help out the families. Was there someone like that when you were growing up? S: Oh, yes, yes. I: Who was it, do you remember her name? S: Well, my auntie for one, Fredrick Love. I: Fredrick Love? S: Umnh. Yeah, and then there were others that certainly went to help out in the times of sickness in the community. I: Now, what do you mean by help out? What do these people do? S: Well, one thing they would go and you know the dear old grandmothers, they had their herbs and what not you know and they made teas and they rubbed those that was sick and maybe in misery and pain and had some little something that they could make as a contribution you know to help out, trying to restore them back to health. I: So, they would go for medicinal purposes. Did they do anything else while they were in the home, other than give medicine? S: Well, I have known where there was sickness in the home but some of the good women would go there and wash and iron. Do work like that to help out and maybe cook you know. I: So, neighbors looked after neighbors? S: Umnh. Yeah, they were concerned about one another, they helped one another. I: In your many travels, and all of your churches what would you say has withstood the test of time, that hasn't changed? Smith 17 Pause S: In other words they impressed you, that they were deeply concerned about their salvation. And you don't see too much of that now. It's not like it was back then. I wondered about it, if the times had been back then like they are now, I wonder what the score would be. Would it be as it was then. Oh, Lord there has been times that you wouldn't think of going out of Sylva going over to Waynesville at night. You had no way to get there unless you walked or rode a horse but just look how the Lord has made provisions for us. We can jump in our car and in a few minutes, we're over to Asheville or somewhere else. Back then you just couldn't do it. There would be times when back then in those olden times that it take a day or maybe a day and a half to get from one place to another. I can remember when we'd have church and two services a month and mules and horses tied up all a running the creek bed there. There was those that were able to have a horse or a mule, they ride them to church and when church was over they got on the horse and mule and rode back home. I: What do you think have been some of the changes for the better? S: What have been some for the better? I: Right. S: Well, the modern changes has come about. It's not like it was all together in the [pause in tape – words missing] was it last year in this life and improvements comes and some old things goes away and new things comes in. So, I guess it's been that way down through the amazing years but there comes a change with all these good roads and conveniences we have. As I ride along sometimes I just wonder in my mind how long will this last. Now, right in these times in which we are in, there is trouble among the nations looks like they are not getting along with one another like they hoped to. This world is big enough for everybody to live in if it just do the right thing and work to one another’s good instead of trying to out do somebody or out run somebody. Lord tells us to run this Christian race, but a Christian race is a different to a whole lot of other races. I: Do you think that is a real source of the problems that we're having today because many people don't hold the Christian principles? S: I would think so. I do believe there are good people in the world. Yeah, I don't think that all the good people turn bad. I: Well, what about politicians? S: Pardon? I: Politicians, what were politics like in your younger days? S: Well, we didn't have any part in them. I: Why not? Smith 18 S: Well, they just didn't want the blacks to vote. Maximum the white man would feel like, that they took my slaves away from me, now I'll let them loose hog or die. I: So, that was there attitude? S: Mhmm, in some cases and then they worked you, but didn't pay you nothing. They wasn't concerned about your part of it. They were just concerned about their part. Women out standing on the ground at a spring or a branch, washing clothes and hanging them up and drying them and then going and iron them and all like that. We could have been better help, if they had just… but the thing of it is the very thought of giving up my slave, I’ll treat him just any way I want to. But now there were some that were good to their slaves, I've been told. That was mighty nice of them. I: When you say good to them in what way are you speaking of? S: Well, I mean that they seemed concerned about them and they wasn't as rough or putting too much on them. Look like, from what I've heard I don't know so much about slavery myself but I've heard a lot about it and I've heard some talk about how nice their slave holders were and would they all they been like that. I: Now, I have heard other senior citizens say that in the early days that the black and whites, who were neighbors were also friends. S: Yeah. I: There was no difference, but then a change came. Do you remember when this change came? S: No, I don't believe I do. I: Do you remember when it was made clear to you that you couldn't do this, you couldn't do that because you were black? S: Oh, yeah. I remember that. And I've experienced that not only in the south, but in the north. I know back when that great ball player was playing, [Deacon] Curry and another one or two, wanted me to drive them to Detroit. I: Are you speaking of Jackie Robinson? S: Jackie Robinson, yeah. And so, we got on the road and went up there, we wanted to see them play ball and we were going way on up, we were in Michigan and we saw a restaurant on the side of the road and we, some cars were parked and few people was in the building, eating, and we went up and asked could we have a little lunch there. And so, one of those told us says well I'll tell you, says let me just fix you up some sandwiches and you all just go out in the car and eat them. I wouldn't have thought that would of happened up there but it did. So, after all we've come through it down here, but there has been a great turn around. The Lord has blessed us and it's not all together like it used to be. You can go now and sit down and eat with them and way this situation is building up here Russia has already told America they ought of be better to these blacks over here in America and on and on like that. So, something has touched the white man where he sees things a little different now to what he used to. Smith 19 I: Do you think that we were treated so badly because we didn't stick up for our rights? S: Well. I: OR we expected everything to be given to us? S: Well, there may have been those that may have expected along that line, but after all from what I have read and heard about some of the southern states, it's been pretty rough. Now North Carolina don't seem to have been quite as bad, lynching and all kinds of things like that. It hasn't been so bad like other states have been. But I think the time has come around now there are some eyes being opened. Russia getting her eyes opened too, up there with blow up and big explosions there in all that settling out in the air and on the earth. Wife: And affecting the other countries. S: Yeah. Well there's one thing about it, God knows when to deal with people. He knows what to do and how and in his own time. You can't rush him. You just have to wait on him. I: Do you think this was perhaps a lesson to Russia and the United States? S: Well, the Lord may be trying to speak to all of us. I: Well, since we're the two, well, besides, Red China, the two big nuclear countries that this explosion is perhaps something we should think seriously about what we are doing? S: Yeah, unmh. Well, one thing seem like you can't get enough people and get enough minds together to just sit down and work out and try this plan and look at that plan and look at the other, which one now is going to be the most beneficial. Now, sometimes one nation can hear that another nation is making a bomb over yonder and he'll jump out here and just through him up something without counting up the cost to see what this thing is going to elude to. See what’s going to happen here. Is it going to be safe till we get ready to use it. Those are some of the things that I think should be given good consideration Because they could destroy themselves as much so as destroying their enemy. That's pitiful, looking there last night all that going up in the air there and that plant blowing up. I: Right, because I remember seeing that the Scandinavian countries and several other countries have been affected because of this explosion in Russia and we aren’t at war. [Pause] S: Well, just maybe we'll go so far with you and then they cut off but we've had a few down through the amazing years that has been mighty nice to our race but I went away and stayed about seven or eight years and came back in top of it and lived in the Baptist church. I've seen the time when one whole side from the pulpit back would be nothing but white and blacks on this side. And old Lord, you talking about attending house every, for several years there and it just grew and expanded and we had to make an addition. And so then it made and it was in early March where they built on to the old church facing to the creek, now, this new point face down the creek and we opened up service that last Sunday school and opened up service and it wasn't but just a little while till something pulled a loose up there on the roof and the water had gathered in the valley up there and it somehow or another froze and under the Smith 20 freeze was water and as that roof pulled apart this water came down through the church. Through the ceiling on the floor. Had to quit preaching and go to dodging. I: So, you’re saying at one time the Liberty Baptist Church was attended by white people? S: Yeah, mhmm, oh Lord, I can remember time and again when one whole side was white and they would come from their churches and sing and work with us. Oh, we had some good friends and then they helped with our burn out. We had a burn out. I: You mean the church burned? S: Yeah, back in the fifties. And , oh Lord, now the present building we have back there was a good friend of ours, he was a good carpenter and this was in February. Just had finished the funeral and went over to the Paris Cemetery and buried the body. And when we, when they were closing up the grave, filling up the grave, few of us hadn't seen one another for quite a while and we were standing talking you know and a young man run up on the upper end of the cemetery and hollered down there and said, "The church is on fire!" We looked up and exactly somebody hollered. "What church?" The Baptist church and it's burning too and we ran back up to. And Lord we jumped in our cars and we lit out back up to this section and saw all that smoke going. Lord have mercy. I: Was the church completely destroyed? S: When we got back it was falling in roof and all. The wall, it was a rock wall, beautiful, native rock, and it just fell flat. And they had had so many fires that winter until they only had, the town only had two little old ford fire trucks and the points had been thrown into the branch or creek to suck water up, you know, and force it on over to the building to try to save it but what had happened by time it got to us they said that they throwed the hose out in there and it pumped just a little and then it just cut off. And the reason was they believed that the pump sucked up so much gravel and crushed and worked on the pump until it just wouldn't pump, it just couldn't. Now the trucks never did do any more good that they put it orders for other trucks. Might could have been saved if the trucks just had not played out on them. I: So, then you and the congregation members of the congregation and the community had to set about building a new church? S: Yeah. I: Now, did you get any help from the white communities? S: Oh, yeah. I: What was contributed by that? S: One of the fine tributes was a good friend, Mr. Joe Davis, he was living then, he was a good carpenter and we went to him and had a talk with him. He said well, preacher you take as cold as it is here in February. Try to locate in the school building and have your services until this weather gets a little better. It is too rough now to get here and try to do anything about it. And he said for me, for my part, I'm gonna stand by you and that man supervised it from the bottom to the top. And never charged us Smith 21 one penny. There were few men that we had to pay that worked under his supervision. But as for his part, not a penny did he take from us. And it wasn’t long until we were back inside. And we're mighty thankful for the little building we got at. It certainly is the best one we've ever had. I: Where did you hold services until the new one was built? S: We were in the school house. I: In the school? S: School house. I: Was the school the focal point or a central meeting place in the community? S: Beg your pardon? I: Was the school a central meeting place in the community? S: Oh, yeah. I: If you didn't have it at the church it was at the school. S: Yes, mhmm, mighty good about that. I: Now, what, when was the school across the street built? S: Across from the church? I: What was it called, Jackson. Jackson what? Wife: Central for awhile. I: Oh, Central High. I didn’t know that. Now, did it have grades from 1 through 12? S: Yeah, didn't hardly get the new building finished until the government said you gonna have to send them out there to Fairview and so, that left them now with this new building. I: That you, now you are talking about the superintendent office, Board of Education now. S: Yeah. I: So, shortly after that building was finished that integration came? S: Yeah, integration came. My wife, she taught out there. I: At Fairview? Smith 22 Wife: No, I taught here and then went to Sylva Elementary and then we consolidated and went to Fairview. See, I started over here at Central and then in 1965 I went to Sylva Elementary down towards Dillsboro. I: Is that what it's called? They call it now The old school. S: The old school, that's where I went then and in 1973, the three schools consolidated, that was Webster Elementary, Savannah Elementary and Sylva Elementary where I was. The three schools went together and they built Fairview and so we consolidated in 1973. I: Oh, I see. S: They rallied to us, oh, my goodness. We just didn't expect all that they done. At that time I worked for Mead Incorporation, they were operating here then and my wife was in school and at night I had to do my work at night. I was janitor. I had… I: At Mead? S: Three offices to take care of. And men that lived way back up at Cashiers and upper end of the country on those mountains, sometimes they would break down and come in late with a big load on their truck of wood, you know, to bring in to the Mead Corporation. They would come in there sometimes at night and asked the men where they were unloading at. Where is Joe Smith? Said, we heard that he lost his church and we want to help him. They would come to the office that I was cleaning up and dusting and fixing up, you know, and give me a donation for the church. I thought that was mighty nice of them. Most people living as far up in the mountains as they were and breaking down and finally getting their truck fixed and coming on in and then hunting me up. I: That is amazing. It really is. S: It was really nice. I: So, many of the local churches also made contributions? S: Oh, yeah, yeah. Quite a few, quite a few. I: Now, I know that you have worked on many, many, many local committees and perhaps some state committees. Mostly what has been you part on these committees. I know because you were a leader of the community. You were asked to participate in about any community committee that was developed as a representative of the black people. Is that true? S: Well, I have set in on meetings like that and help discuss situations that come up before us and I appreciated it, you know, the privilege to have a word in whatever it may have been. One thing about Jackson County, we have always had some good white people here that have been mighty nice to us and because of that, I imagine that's why they helped us so in getting our church built back. Then when the government told them that they'd have to integrate. It integrated peacefully and no trouble. They just moved right in and went right on off and haven't had any trouble and just went on. I: Would you, do you consider yourself to be a Civil Rights Activist? Smith 23 S: [laugh] Well, Civil Rights has come about and I'm glad I lived to see it. There was a time you know that they didn't like for you to go in a certain place and eat and relax and all like that, but the Lord has opened the way. I: Do you remember any specific meetings or projects that you participated in that were geared specifically towards Civil Rights? Did you ever meet with Dr. Reverend Martin Luther King or any of his followers? S: No, I never did. I never did meet up with one of those. But there's one thing about it. I have, feel like I have put in my little part praying about it. That's one thing that will help out and I was certainly mighty glad that it worked out. Mighty glad. The way things are now we don't know. They use to be mighty rough on us way back yonder. Call you a nigger and all like that but you can bout near sit in their lap now. I: Why do you think 1963 was so different from 1923 or ‘33? Was the leadership not there to make the changes? S: Well, that could have been some of it and after all God moves at times and when he moves now there's a move made. I can see the white man’s side about it. I had you as a slave but you took me away from, but now I can let you stand on your own feet. Get out there and make it the best way you can. No job, nothing ahead but go get a plow and a mule and go to plowing and farming. I: Excuse me, go ahead. S: Somehow, someway, God has worked this thing out and fixed it to were that by waiting on the Lord, we see what we have done. I don't believe we were as lost as many people in the turn over of integration if we'd just waited a little longer on the Lord. You know the Lord has, he knows how to fix it and sometimes we can run ahead of God and give things upset there. But anyway it came about. There was a whole lot of segregated people that tried to fight that and kill that order out but it come around, it come around. [pause] I: Now all of the committees and organizations that you belonged to and worked with, what has been your favorite one? S: Well, kind of hard to say which one. They've been mighty nice to me. I: I know you consider all of them to be serious, but which one really was from the heart, that you would put your heart and soul into? S: Now, that's of city clubs and so forth? I: Yes. Smith 24 S: Well, I've given a lot of service. Oh, Lord at the hospital there. They called on me quite often to come in and talk with them. They'd want me to stand and intervene on a lot of things but when you got church work. It's hard to carry on so many things you just have to cut off somewhere. So, that's what I have done. I've cut off on a lot of things and they still want me on occasions but a preacher, he shouldn't take on too much of an over load. I: Did you find it hard to say no? S: Well, it is hard to say no and a body likes to help when he can, but one thing, my ministry has been, a lot of it out of town. You never know when you’re gonna have to go. I: Are you speaking of Mars Hill? S: Yes. I: What is the size of your congregation there? S: Pardon. I: What's the size of your congregation there? S: It's not a large congregation, it's just a medium. But they are some good and faithful people out there, carrying on in a very fine way. Just Saturday, I conducted a funeral of one of the older members of the church. She died in Baltimore. She was with her children there. But she certainly was a mighty good woman, faithful to the church. And before the children married and moved away, we had quite a crowd of people. Young people they are like this, they love home all right, but yet and still there's in other words they can get a better job maybe over yonder and they leave home and go there. In other words, if the situation was just situated in a way that they could get, say for instance the same wages here that they could over yonder, it would keep them at home a lot of times. But that's why the young people, they like to get all they can out of their work as they go through, you know. That little church sure has been mighty nice and faithful to me and my family. [Moira] is a native of Mars Hill. I: And that's where you met her when you first started. S: Yes. I: Being a pastor there. Since that time you have been the pastor? S: Oh, yes, I: And you’re still the pastor there? S: No, I resigned third Sunday in last month. Fifty-eight years. I: Fifty-eight years. S: Yeah, and up in fifty down here Sylva. Smith 25 I: That's true dedication. S: Well, there's one thing about it, they have been nice to me and I tried to be nice to them and I've never liked to be like a bird, jumping from limb to limb, The Lord will let you know when to move, time to get out. We haven't had any quarrels or troubles or differences that has come down through the fifty years of my life that really has been so pleasant until, I've had a lot of offers to other places and larger churches, but somehow, someway I've just been content to stay with the people that were so nice to me and tried my best to be nice to them. I: Now, you mentioned that you traveled. Where have your travels led you? Which countries? S: Well, my first trip was to the Holy Land. We went there and we went to Greece and Rome and Switzerland, London, Paris and that was on that trip. I: And of those countries, your favorite one was? S: Favorite one? Well, they were all real nice. They really catered to travelers and they sure make it mighty nice and pleasant for you. I: What was your impression of the Holy Land? S: Pardon. I: What was your impression of the Holy Land? S: Well, I was very much impressed with it. I read a lot about it and I was just glad to go and walk around over some of the places that I read about and it's very inspiring. Then we had another trip that took us around the world. We left. In other words we had to go to Nashville, Tennessee to catch out the plane that we were to go on. So, we took it and went to Hawaii. We spent the night there and some of us got in ahead and the next morning there were others that had come in all through the night. So, when we got ready to leave there, left on a big plane that was able to pick up all of us and take all they carried some terrible loads on those planes. Then we went into Tokyo, Thailand, two or three more countries in there. Then we got so far out we didn't go into Africa but we made a circle and come on back. It's similar to cities that we'd hit before but just the way it was you know. I: When did you take these trips? S: That was back there in the sixties. I: Now, given the situation today would you fly again? S: Well, I would fly but I don't think I care to go over there now. I: You think you’re going to stay in the United States for a while? S: Yeah, I think I'll stay here. It's a great country, but we don't know just what's gonna happen before the Lord comes back again. Something could happen like what happened to Russia you know. Smith 26 I: You indicate that you think that the end could be near according to history and the Bible or a change could come about soon. S: Well, I'm not predicting but I've just noticed the different periods of history that why it has to go in a 2,000 year circle to have a world turn over. But it has and we only lack so many more years until the third 2,000 year period will be up. Whether we live to see it or not, we don't know but if life exist, there is gonna be a turn over somehow, soweway. I: Are there any other historical events that you remember? S: Pardon. I: Any other historical events that you remember, such as World War I? S: Well, I do have a little memory of World War I that had its affects in places over the world and America's been successful in winning and carrying on. But will this as it's going now nations commanding air planes if it goes and lands and they'll go up and take charge and demand and all like that. I: The high jacking? S: Yeah. I: Well, in the earlier wars were any of your relatives in these wars? S: I had a cousin in World War I. He died in the service. I: He died in World War I? S: Mhmm, in France. I: In France? S: Mhmm. Yeah, he was in World War I. I: So, your cousin was in the all black troops, you think, when he was killed, in France? S: He was in a group that haul supplies to the front and he died. He didn't get killed. He just died in the service. I: Was that during the war or did he make the service his career? S: Well, he died while he was serving. I: In World War I? S: Mhmm, yeah. I: There wasn't a reason given? Smith 27 S: Well, I don’t remember. It's been so long. I don't remember just what the trouble was, but he died in the service. Could have been from the exposure for all I know because he helped to bring up supplies to the front and you know there was a lot of flu raging back then. They had to be out there and probably just didn't throw off whatever was creeping up on him. Might have been some kind of flu or fever or something. I: Are there any other periods that stand out in your memory? S: On what? I: Korean War, Depression, you were here during the Depression, weren't you a young person? S: Yeah, mhmm, I remember the Depression. I: How were times then? S: Times were pretty tough, pretty tough, you didn't get much pay for your work that you done because just wasn't able to pay it and you just had to either take it or go in you know, line up with some farmer and farm his land and try to make a living. I: Now was this sharecropping? S: Yeah. I: So, sharecropping was practiced here in Sylva? S: No, I don't know of any practice here but… I: In other parts of North Carolina? S: Yeah. I: What do you remember specifically that was hard other than hard work and low pay during the Depression? S: Well, that was just about the only way you could make it. You just had to take what they gave you. I: What about, I've heard of rationing of food? S: Yeah, mhmm. I: Do you remember that? S: Yeah, yes, I remember. I: What food were rationed? Smith 28 S: Pardon me? I: Which foods were rationed? S: Well, not using any others myself, my people, I just don't know what all they used. They would give them bags of potatoes and beans and things like that you know and they, people that didn't have food made it on it somehow. But we never did have to go into that because we tried to farm a little ground and raise some things that we needed ourselves and we didn't get the top wages, but what little we could get, we managed to make it on it. I: I am really interested in your statement about the Civil Right Movement in that perhaps we moved before God was willing, ready. If we had not had the leader of Dr. King, the leadership of Dr. King, where do you think we would be now? S: Well, Dr. King, he, the Lord certainly laid that on his heart to do what he done. He was concerned about people. He loved people and he tried to awaken and help people to get their eyes open. He saw something coming and it was a pain to have heeded the things that he taught. But you know how it is. Rebellion was a bad thing and a there's a lot of people who like to rebel. They don't gain anything by it. I: So, you are saying those who didn't practice non-violence, perhaps made the situation worst? S: Yes. I: I'm thinking in particular for example the Black Panther Groups, those who espoused violence. What do you think of those groups? Those groups which said, “I will not turn the other cheek.” S: Well. [Tape ends]

Reverend Joe Smith (born Joseph Henry Smith) is interviewed by Lorraine Crittenden on April 29, 1986 as a part of the Western North Carolina Tomorrow Black Oral History Project. Born in 1903, Smith’s parents died when he was young and he was raised by his grandparents in Jackson County. His grandfather had been a slave and when freed, he worked on the railroad helping to build the Cowee tunnel and farmed. Smith was a minister in Mars Hill and in Sylva for over 50 years. He also worked at the Mead Corporation and was involved in many community organizations. He shares his thoughts on civil rights, his observances of white and black relations, and integration.

• Creator
  • Smith, Joe (Joseph), 1903-1997
• Contributor
  • Crittenden, Lorraine
• Format
  • Sound recordings
  • Transcripts
  • Interviews
• Type
  • Sound
  • Text
• Date
  • Date interview: 1986-04-29
  • Date: 1900s (Decade); 1910s; 1920s; 1930s; 1940s; 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s;
  • Date digitized: 2019-09-28
• Extent
  • Duration: 1:31:45 (sound recording)
  • Duration: 28 pages (transcript)
• Subject - Topic
  • African American clergy
  • African American families
  • African American farmers
  • African Americans
  • African Americans -- Economic conditions
  • African Americans -- Religion
  • African Americans -- Social conditions
  • African Americans -- Social life and customs
  • Autobiography
  • Civil Rights movements -- United States -- History -- 20th century
  • Community life
  • Community organizations
  • Depressions -- 1929
  • Enslaved persons
  • North Carolina, Western -- Race relations -- History -- 20th century
  • Race discrimination -- North Carolina, Western -- History
  • School integration -- North Carolina -- Jackson County
  • Schools -- North Carolina -- Jackson County
  • Slavery -- North Carolina, Western
  • Smith, Joe (Joseph), 1903-1997 -- Interviews
• Location
  • Mars Hill (N.C.)
  • Sylva (N.C.)
  • Jackson County (N.C.)
  • Buncombe County (N.C.)
  • Madison County (N.C.)
  • North Carolina, Western
• Source institution
  • Western Carolina University
• Source Collection
  • Western North Carolina Tomorrow Black Oral History Project
• Identifier
  • HL_MSS98-03_Crittenden_Smith_Smith_1986-04-29
• Repository
  • Western Carolina University Hunter Library