Western Carolina University WCU University of North Carolina Asheville UNCA

Southern Appalachian Digital Collections

Western Carolina University (21) View all
University of North Carolina Asheville (6) View all
WCU - Oral Histories of Western North Carolina

Interview with Gurney Chambers

items 2 of 2 items
  • record image
Copyright Download
Item 1 - Interview with Gurney Chambers

Interview with Gurney Chambers

HL_HIST474_Lindler_Chambers_2009-10-14

Interview with Gurney Chambers

HL_HIST474_Lindler_Chambers_2009-10-14_transcript
Item
?

Item’s are ‘child’ level descriptions to ‘parent’ objects, (e.g. one page of a whole book).

  • Gurney Chambers, a student of Josephina Niggli’s in the late 1950s at Western Carolina University and who later joined the faculty at Western in the 1960s, discusses his memories of her as a teacher and as a colleague.
  • Hilary Lindler: My name is Hilary Lindler and I am meeting with ... Gurney Chambers: ... Gurney Chambers. HL: Can you please spell your first name for me? GC: G-U-R-N-E-Y HL: This is October 14th and we are meeting to talk about Josephina Niggli. I'll just start off with a couple of real simple questions and we can see how that goes. I would kike to • know what is your association Josephina Niggli. Were you a student? A colleague? GC: I was a student. I enrolled in Western Carolina University in 1957, which was a year after Ms. Niggli joined the faculty here I believe. I was fortunate enough to have English Composition with her. In fact, I had both ofmy English Composition courses during my freshman year and a literature course in my sophomore year. HL: That answers what years did you know her. Had you heard about her before you had classes with her? GC: No I had not, but I didn't hear about any university professors. I was a first generation college student, so college was, something very remote to me and I hadn't really expected to go to college until my senior year in high school. HL: I fyou don't mind me asking, what drew you to go to college then ifyou were a first generation college student? GC: Well urn, I think just ambition. I wanted to do better than members of my family. I can from a very modest background, poverty in fact. Teachers I had .. I was fortunate enough to have some really influential teachers from elementary school on through high school and they encouraged me and made me realise that I probably could survive in college if I chose to do that. So, 1 decided to go. And, I was involved in an , unfortunate in one sense, automobile accident the summer before my senior year, and form that I got enough money to go to college. Ever_yihing paid for, so that worked out nicely. The injury was not fun. HL: Unfortunate but fortunate. GC: [laugh] yes. HL: What did you end up majoring in? GC: I majored in Social Studies Education and Business Ed. as well. Back then all teachers had to have to areas in which they could ... HL: [cough) GC: We had double majors. HL:Now one thing I've been trying to figure out with some of these interviews I'm doing is you know, we have her plays and we have her books and we can read about who she was as a literary person, but I'm really interested in finding out what your impressions of her were as an individual. Her personality. Hod did she relate to people? Do you have any specific impressions? [cough] Excuse me. [cough] Sorry. Did you have any specific impressions of her? GC: Well I do. In fact she was if not my favorite, most favorite teacher in all my undergraduate years here at Western, she was certainly I the top two or three. She would sit behind her desk when I had her for three courses, I can't recall, I'm sure she did stand and maybe pace about now and then, but I can't really recall that. I have this still vivid image of her sitting behind her desk in her chair smoking. Back then we, students and faculty members, often smoked in class and no one thought anything about it of course. There would be a trash can over on her right, a trash can you found in each of the classrooms at that time, and I remember sitting listening to her and she would flip the ashes offher cigarette as she smoked and more often than not they would fall onto the floor rather than the can. You could just ... the students' eyes would, you know, move to that and back to her. She was ... I know someone has said. I read it someplace that she didn't tolerate fools easily, but that was not my impression of her. I'm not sure what one means exactly ... HL: (cough] GC: ... when they say that. I thought she was a very gentle person, and certainly I did well in my English courses in high school. Better in English that the other courses because I was interested in it. I still had a lot to learn, and given my background ... Looking back on it now, and I'm glad I remember these few things because it tells me how far I have come in the area of being able to use the language reasonably decent, but I never recall anything but the kindest reaction to what you might view as just unbelievable careless[?] and thinking that somebody might wonder "Well why are you here? You shouldn't be here. You're not college material.'' To give you a specific example, I remember ... We're talking now, I had her 1957, so how may years ago was that? That's fifty. More that fifty. H L: About fifty-two. GC: Fifty-two years so ... HL: (cough] GC: The fact that I can remember this so well will tell you just how important these little things are in the life of a student. But I remember getting into a discussion with a friend, who was also in her class, about the correctness of the expression "it don't matter." You've probably heard that said even today by a number of people in this area, and I was certain that "it don't matter" was fine, that there wasn't anything wrong with that. So, we went to her to resolve this disagreement and I remember she just very gently and kindly said that that was incorrect and point out why it was incorrect, never sensing that there was any disbelief on her part that anybody could be in college and not know better than that. I remember another time writing a paper, and I lived in Reynolds Hall. I don't know ifyou've been to Reynolds. HL: I lived in Buchanan during my undergrad so I was right down The Hill. • GC: Yeah. I did later [unintelligible] HL: [cough] GC: But, in Reynolds Hall there are two rooms with two students. Back then there was a shared bathroom so we referred to the people in the room, the other room, as suite mates and I wrote a paper and I spelled it S-W-E-E-T. [laugh] rather than S-U-I-T-E and I remember her correcting that. So that was where I was really despite having made good grades in English in high school, and I enrolled in her classes and I made As and Bs in the three courses that I had. I remember that she said, "I don't really know the rules of grammar. I can't tell you this and that, but I know what is correct and not correct." And she had us to do a lot of writing, and then she would grade the writing carefully. It was in that way, rather than in studying grammar, that we learned how to write correctly. She made us more conscious of words and the way that we put them together rather than just writing something down, she taught us that you've got to go back and think about it and what are you really saying ans that kind of thing. I found that very, a very helpful \:vay ofteaching. I remember, well, I'll show you a letter that she wrote to me in 1961. I was a senior then. That's a copy for you to if you ... HL: Thank you. Yeah, I'd like to. GC: And, She was of course Director of the Theater, is what was her title then and well· as teaching the English, and she was having an awards ceremony that was similar to the Academy Awards l guess she says there. I was president of the student body so I'm sure that was the main reason she asked me to present some awards, student awards, because that would be appropriate. So, she wrote that letter ad asked if I would present these awards, and I of course was happy to show and felt obligated 'cause I was president of the student body. And interesting thing about that letter, is even though I'd had three courses with her, she still misspelled my name on three different occasions there. Its spelled G-U-E-R-N-E-Y. I guess she was thinking ofthe Guernsey dairy cow or the area. That's often done, but it was interesting that she hadn't picked up on that, and back then there were only about .. well when I entered Western I think twelve hundred students approximately and then when I left it was growing rapidly, about two thousand. We knew everybody then. The students knew everybody and especially those who lived on campus. I knew every faculty member, most ofthe faculty members and all ofthe students I think. But in that letter you'll see that she says that it would mean a great deal to the students and a great deal to her because I was the first student who ever asked her to save a card for her next course. The way we registered then, the faculty embers would go up to Breese Gymnasium on the top floor and there would be tables arranged around and sitting at those tables were all the instructors. They had so many cards made up that in my English course 101, probably a different number then, that I will accept thirty students. You go by and you say "may I have a card for your class?'.' If they gave you one, they'd sign it, and that's the way ... they'd turn them all in and that became your schedule. Evidently, according to her, I was the first to say "Ms. Niggli, at the end of the course will you save me a card for your next course." and, she always did so I took the two composition courses with her as I said earlier and one of the literature courses with her. I think that was all she taught, or I would have taken the second literature with her. I'm sure she taught dramatics, but I wasn't in to that. She was, still talking about how she was as a teacher how she behaved, she was a I ittle on the stout side by then. I, ans I suspect other students as well, had a vague notion about her celebrity in a sense. I mean she was certainly a celebrity relative to most of the people who were teaching at Western at the time. We knew she'd had some exotic background that wasn't, you know, just your typical thing. We knew she'd been in Hollywood and she knew some of the actors. I recall that she thought Robert Taylor, you probably don't know Robert Taylor. HL: I know the name but I can't actually ... GC: Yeah. He was a prominent movie star. Very handsome,, and Tyrone Power. She would talk about how god looking those two .. she didn't talk a lot about that. Probably just one time and it just stuck in my mind. Then I remember her saying that Marilyn Monroe was one of the best actresses in Hollywood. That people say she is, you know, a pretty face or sexy that kind of thing but she is a fantastic actress she said. I think other people have said something similar since, but at the time there were a number of critics who said she really couldn't act. So she would bring in that background some. I was aware then too that she had written !vfexican f71lage the novel and that it had been made into a movie called Sombrero. I saw that they had some of you really outstanding actors in that movie so I never saw the movie. I knew that she had ... HL: (cough] GC: ... Step Dmvn, Elder Brother. At that time, anyone who had written a book that was at Western was sort of put on a pedestal by students. At least by this student anyway because it was quite different then with regard to the publishing part than it is today. Now it's fairly common for professors to have written books, but not then. So those are my recollections that come to mind immediately. And I've talked a long time so ... HL: No no, this is great. So you definitely seem to feel that she was an accessible person. GC: Oh very, and I just ... I really have no negative memory of her whatsoever. It was very ... my memories are all positive and I'm just thankful that I did have her as my English teacher because she really did make a tremendous difference for me. Now she said, and this was ... Do you know when she died exactly? Was it ... there's another I brought for you. Now you see this. What does this say [rustling paper] at the top there? HL: That looks like '87. GC: Yes. And yet I saw on the website being put up now that she died in '81 or '81 or '83. '81 I think. HL: Yes I was thinking so too. GC: And if that is correct, than that must be an one instead of a seven. HL: It ... well ... yeah except that it's got that ... huh that's interesting that it has the thing and that doesn 't.1 GC: Well this was a card. A very simple card, nothing on it, and I've made a copy for you 'cause I want to keep the card 1 have. HL: Well of course, yes. GC: And this is ... 1 gave her some flowers for some reason and I was trying to figure out was this when she retired? But I learned later she retired in '75. I came back and joined the faculty in 196 7, so she was still here teaching. She hadn't retired until '75 and she continued to live in the neighborhood. You've probably seen her house. HL: I haven't, but people have told me where it is, and it's on my list of things to go check out. GC:Yeah, and so we were actually colleagues, teaching colleagues, for a whiie after I came back. And I don't know the occasion, I first though well it must be when she retired but she retired earlier, and then I decided after I saw that on the website well maybe it was when she was sick. HL: I heard she was in the hospital for a while. GC: Yeah, and so that is what it was. I bet it has to be '81 then because she died in '83. Weill set her some flowers and I value that comment ... if you read it there. HL: You'll always be my oldest by? Gurney Chambers and I were bending over the card from Josephina Niggli together and examining her handwriting. GC: Yeah. And I think there's something in the Mexican, I don't know what'd you call it, culture or something that the oldest son, you know, is the one that probably gets the property and all of that. That I really valued that comment. You can see her ability to say so much in just so few words, succinctly. I remember to, when I was back now on the faculty and had a Ph.D D, that she told a group of my colleagues one day. Now this is after she was older and everything, that when I enrolled in her class [laugh] that I couldn't read or write, [laugh] which was a gross exaggeration really. I ad deficiencies in the skills of reading and writing 'cause I did well in English in high school • even though I thought "it don't matter" is correct. I heard someone in Burger King with a doctorate saying "it don't matter" 'cause it's part of this area. Seems to be. . .. that I couldn't read or vv'rite. And I wasn't offended by that. I knew that it was a great exaggeration, and I knew my colleagues knew that, but I wasn't offended because I think it was really her way of complimenting me and recognizing how far I had come. You know, here this student enrolled in her class that needed a lot of help. Needed help understanding and acceptance, who had gone on, got a Ph.D D and now teaching with me. So, I was pleased by her comment rather than offended by it, even though it was a tremendous exaggeration. HL: How would you feel that your relationship with her changed as a person, or how you related to her as a person between having been a student and then being a colleague of sorts? Which by the way, what did you come back to be a professor of? Were y'all in the same department? GC: No no. I was in the education, School of Education it became, and I taught history and philosophy of education. But, the second year I was here I became Assistant Dean and so I only taught part time, then became Associate Dean, and then Dean. I was Dean of the College of Education [unintelligible] for the last seventeen years. HL: Oh really? Ok. GC: I retired from that in 1998, and then stayed at the university working with the accreditation of schools, K-12 schools ofthe Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. You may have heard of that from 1998 to 2006 and then I retired. I just live where I've lived since 1968, just a mile from the campus. Not that far, just up in Forrest Hills. So to answer your question, we would of course see each other fairly often, but we were never in like members of the same department where we would interact on a rather frequent basis. But I always felt toward her, like I think any student would feel toward a favorite professor, you always you know I would never think of calling her "Josephina." It would always be "Ms. Niggli." I mean it would make me uncomfortable, probably wouldn't her, but it would make me uncomfortable to refer to her as anything but "Ms. Niggli." It was an easy kind of relationship as I remember. I think she knew what I thought of her, in fact I'm sure I told her from time to time. You know I can remember it was always like that. I think they like it even more as they approach the end of their careers because that's largely what brings joy to their lives- the memory of the difference that they made in the lives of others. HL: Then just from what you observed, since you do have the advantage of some people I've talked to, of having known her as both a student and as some one who if you didn't work with her you at least worked with the university at the same time as her ... Do you have any particular recollections about how she related to students versus how she related to the people that she worked with? Because ... how you relate to people you work with is sometimes very different then how you relate to people that you are instructing. GC: Absolutely. Yeah. HL: If you have any particular recollections, how do you recollect those differences being? Or how did she differentiate between the way that she related to different people, or did she? GC: Well, that's a good question. I certain ... I understand what you are asking and my responses are more impressions since I can't point to anything specific or concrete that would back them up. I know that ad a student we certainly, as you know when ... well you still are a student, that word gets around about ''This is a good guy. This is a good woman. This is a good man. This one's not" and so on. "Don't take that person. Take this person but be prepared they really tough." I don't ever recall any negative things being said about Ms. Niggli, or would Ms. Niggli . . . I suspect I did hear "Try to get Ms. Niggli if you really want to learn about writing and English and so on." So, I think I'm safe in saying that the students at the time would have, or even after I cam back, viewed her in a positively. Now more and more here as her career continued she moved out of, in fact I suspect she moved completely out of, teaching freshman composition and she devoted most of her time to the dramatics and the theater. I don't know about the perception of her colleagues. I suspect there may have been a little bit of a jealousy. I don't know. Thee often is if somebody comes from ... I mean how many people do we have that have worked with people in Hollywood, who have written at least one novel that a movie was made of And she had, as you know, a really interesting background. I was in Monterrey, Mexico a couple of times with the Southern Association of Colleges and I wish then that I had known that she was born there, but I saw in the thing that she was born there. I don't know how long she lived there, but she actually went to school in San Antonio and was horne schooled for a while, but then got her masters at Chapel Hill as you know. So I don't know. I can't report any thing I [cough] that would say she didn't have as good relationship with her colleagues as she did with her students, I do know (cough] Excuse me, I'm having the same problem. Mine's allergies. HL: You need some ... [Recorder was turned off while I gave him some cough drops and he paused for a few minutes.] GC: I believe for a year didn't she?2 HL: I'm not entirely ... GC: Atler coming here. That's not mentioned on that website. HL: I don't remember reading about that. GC: But I think that she did and then decided that Cullowhee was where she wanted to be. And that's another thing that I liked about her. Especially after coming back as faculty member. I • fell in love, as evidently you did, with Cullowhee, \Vestern North Carolina, and the university, and I love this place. I've remained in touch with ... and I knew that if I had an opportunity to come back and be on the faculty I would jump at it, and I had an opportunity and came back and never letl. And I always got the feeling that M. Niggli, while she'd seen the bright lights and been in the world of more sophisticated people, she liked Cullowhee. And, I think the fact that she did leave a year, somebody enticed her away I guess, and then came back and remained here. I became more aware of this atler I returned to the faculty. I especially appreciated that because I like people who liked what I liked you know as far as the university was concerned. I can't remember now what I was ... why I mentioned that or what the question was I'm not sure. What was it? HL: The question was how she related to the professors, but honestly take the question anyway you want it because one thing reminds you of another so this is very very interesting. Let's see here. I did want to ask you ... You did mention that you have heard of a few things she's written. Just sort of a side question. Have you actually read anything that she's written? Even since you've known here. Even afterwards, are you familiar with any of her plays, books? GC: Well I have not read any of her plays. I know that she wrote a number of them and I've seen that. I was familiar with the two novels. 3 At that time, the novels would have been of more interest to be than plays because that's not my thing, the dramatics. I would go to great lengths to try to avoid getting that before [unintelligible.]"+ I may have read Mexican Tlllage. In fact at one time I may have had a copy of it, but unfortunately, and I now regret this very much, over the years as I accumulated books, and I do love books and still have an extensive library, to make room for all the new I'd give them away. I just hate so much now that I did that, but I was a member of the Book of the Month Club even when I was a student here and having those old 2 He was saying that he believes he left Cullowhee/Western Carolina for a year. I did not turn the recorder back on fast enough to catch the whole question. 3 .\Jexican Ill/age and S'tep Down, Older Brother 4 It sounds like l'v1r. Chambers was saying something about a root-canal but it is not entirely clear. novels. You know some really were acclaimed, well reviewed, and I'd love to read again. The only [unintelligible] is I've given then away as the years go by. I may have owned a copy of Mexican f711age. 1 know I've had it in my hands and looked at it, but I'm not sure and I don't have those now. And, I know that I've looked at Step Down, Elder Brother. You can still order a copy. I got online some time ago to see if there was anywhere to be found a copy of A13xican J/7llage and I saw some sites there where you could get it. HL: Did you actually ... I know that the university people that have been involved with this Josephina Niggli project had some issues trying to find a copy of Sombrero and they • eventually found it on the Turner Classics channel J think. But, have you ever seen the film? GC: I don't think so. In fact, I belong to netflix. Are you familiar with that':' HL: mmhmm. Yes I am. GC: Which I think is great. It's incidentally the best .. they do what they say, but that's not why we are here to talk about. [laugh] But I checked .. you know they boast a hundred thousand copies and a they have a lot of old movies. But I check to see if they had Sombrero and they do not. At least I couldn't find it. It didn't come up wen I typed it in. HL: So you were are that she had had this film but you didn't actually see it even at the time that ... GC: No. HL: Ok. GC: No, and I don't think that I ever did see it, but I could have. Gene Autry I think made a movie called Sombrero but it's not related to hers. You know Gene Autry. HL: mmhmm. Oh yes I do know who Gene Autry is. GC: One of the things I started to say a while ago and that's where I lost my train ofthought there, but you know Gary Carden? HL: Urn he is actually on my list of people I'm going to be interviewing, yes. GC: Really':' Well he wrote a very interesting thing for the Smoky Mountain News ''7 You familiar with that? Have you seen it? HL: I have not. 5 Possibly "Memories of WCTC's feline director of all things theater"' (http: i iwww.smokymountainnews.com/issuesiO 1_09/0 l_CJ7 _09/op_feline. html)" GC: It's about Ms. Niggli. Any of course he was in the dramatics side ofthings you know, and he recalled things that I did not but you need to try to read that and you'll find his interview with him I think quite fascinating and very helpful because he'll be able to add much more to what I have said. I believe that he was in that piece that Ms. Niggli had left for a year and that then jogged my memory and I had that vague recollection that she did. That being a short time she did go away I believe for a year and then wanted to come back. Of all I know that could have been due to her unhappiness with some of her colleagues here I just don't know, but he'd be able to shed some light on that. · HL: I'll make a note to ask him about that then when I meet with him. GC: Yeah. HL: I think I'm meeting with him later his week actually. GC: Ok. He's as I recall hard of hearing and doesn't see well I don't think. Tremendous storyteller. I've heard him tell stories. You know, it's about theater. He'll get up on the desk and really it's just excellent. You just sit enthralled by what he says. He's a more literary type than I am and he's written plays and other things. HL: This is sort of an odd question. I asked it of an art professor actually, who had known Ms. Niggli, and she said "well why don't you ask it to all the people that you talk to." So I had asked her what color she associated with Ms. Niggli. Because, you know that sometimes when you think about people you think of certain colors or you think of certain sounds or something. So do you have a specific color that you would associate? GC: I have one that immediately came to mind, but it will be misleading I think because it's not a color that you would normally associate with very positive things but. HL: Oh that's ok. Go right ahead. GC: So by this coming to my mind, I assure that it doesn't mean anything negative, but "grey." Grey came immediately came immediately to mind. HL: And do you happen to know why you associate grey with her? GC: Well, first of all I like grey myself, but a lot of people don't. HL: I'm quite fond of it myself. GC: Yeah some ... I thought since you said that you dress in black that's my favorite color I think6 . Black I like, and l have a lot of black clothes. If someone once, and this is an aside, 6 In e-mail correspondence prior to the interview. I told rvtr. Chambers that I dress in all black so that he would be able to find me when we met at Hunter Library. referred to Shoney's food as "grey." [shared laugh] But I ... Ms. Niggli ... Now thinking back she was born in 1915 was it7 HL: That sounds about right.7 GC: Any you know, she was not old. When you reach seventy, man forty, forty-five, fifty, that's young. g So she was young then, but old to an eighteen year old. I probably though then like most that if I ever lived to be fifty I'd be ready to die, but you don't feel that way when you're seventy. But she was not ... and I was interested in her early pictures that I saw on the website. "There was one at least where she was, I thought, attractive actually in that picture, and she evidently wanted to be an actress early on. But, she was not attractive, at least to an eighteen year old. This eighteen year old. She was, as I said earlier, stout. You know, a little over weight would be another way of putting it. And the, not dressed in any flamboyant way or interesting way, and it seemed to me that she had even a slight mustache you know. That could just be a flawed memory on my part, but when you thought of Ms. Niggli you didn't think of anyone attractive particularly. The dress was rather .. it was like it was designed or selected not to attract attention you know. So grey just sorta fits that. I like it. I don't like grey days. I like the color grey and grey clothing. HL: I guess we are back on subject now, [laugh] but thank you, I appreciate that.9 GC: [laugh] HL: You played along. GC: [laugh] HL: Now since you've been in the area for so long. GC: Yes. HL: Do you happen to remember either when she passed away or alternately, or I guess also, when they dedicated the Niggli Theater to her? Not so much dates ... GC: Yeah. HL: ... as do you remember the area ... what happened locally. 7 She was actually born July 13. 1910 8 Mr. Chambers \vas seventy years old at the time of the interview. 9 Referring to my off-topic question about colors. GC: Yeah. No I don't remember. I remember the theater to her, and how pleased that that was being done but l don't remember any ofthe specifics of that particular event or time. I do remember her doing not well, but I don't remember specifics. l've said that I should have never majored in history because I have a terrible memory. There are things that I remember vividly, but not a lot. I can talk with some people and they seem to have retained everything, but that's not me. Even something that could have been very important to me at the time that I participated in directly. I don't particularly recollect that now. · HL: So 'm assuming that you didn't go the the dedication then? GC: I don't remember going to it and I don't know what kind of dedication they really had [unintelligible]. HL: Ok ok. You just remember that it happened. GC: Yeah, that it happened and how pleased I was because I thought that she was certainly deserving of that honor. HL: (cough] GC: You're cough drop really helped me. Thank you. HL: There's a couple more if you want them. GC: I still have this one. HL: Now I know that you had her as a Language Arts professor, so this may not apply to you and feel free to let me know if it doesn't. But, when she was in Chapel Hill, she was really involved with a group called the Playmakers. Do you remember hearing anything about that or anything about her participation in the theater whatsoever. GC: [shakes head] HL: No. GC: No. I didn't. HL: Ok. GC: and that was just foreign to me at the time. HL: Ok. GC: I knew she had been there. I knew this was her thing you know-the acting, the dramatics, the plays-but that was not something that someone with my background would have . . . Well I shouldn't say that 'cause some T guess to get involved, but that was foreign to me at the time. HL: Ok; well I didn't know 'cause you were in a different department. GC: mmhmm1 " HL: urn ... GC: While you're looking for a question, I do recall one other interesting thing. HL: Go right ahead. GC: In that letter I gave you when I presented those awards? HL: Yes I have it right here. GC: There was, as I recall, the details of what I was supposed to present were placed in an envelope you know just as they are with the Academy Awards. And I had the envelope. Didn't have an opportunity to see it in advance 'til Twas there ready to present. So, 1 pull this out and I run across a word R-E-C-0-N-P-E-N-S-E. Recompense. That was a new word to me. I didn't remember ... and so when I got to it [laugh] I think I pronounced it "reecompense" you know, and I just said "this is a new word for me." That was embarrassing, and I've often wondered if it embarrassed Ms. Niggli. You know, after all she'd asked me to do this. She never mentioned it, and I did but I've certainly retained that all these years for not knowing that word and not pronouncing exactly correctly. Of course later I looked it up and learned that I had not pronounced it right. [laugh]. So it always pays to see what you're going to say. You never know what you might run into. [shared laugh] HL: I think that's true for all of us. GC: I'm sure it is. HL: Do you ever remember her actually discussing her writing? Or I guess alternately, do you remember anything specific that she might have said in classes about the writing process? GC: You know, some professors. They spend most of their time, or you get the impression, that over the course of a quarter (we were on a quarter system then or semester) that they talk mainly about themselves. Well that was never an impression that you'd have of Ms. Niggli. She would bring in aspects of her background to illustrate the points that she would want to make. For example, when she mentioned Marilyn Monroe as a great actress and that always seemed to fit and it was a way of making the class more interested. She never, I'm sure, talked at length about 10 Asound to the affirmative her writings, but we nevertheless were aware that she had written these things and that impressed us of course. So I would think, based on my memories, that she just used those things to make her classes more interesting and to illustrate certain points. Again, she taught us to write by writing, and sh aught us grammar by writing and her correcting that writing. You learned in that way which I really think is a very good technique. I remember that she had us, this was in the literature course, we were to critique something. I can't remember whether we had a choice, but I critiques Robert Frost's "Birches." "Swinging on Birches" or "Birches." I can't remember. 11 And I will remember, I regret not saving this paper, I just gave • my interpretation of it and she had written on my paper "this is professional criticism." You can, at that time I was a sophomore, to have someone of her stature, that is someone who had written plays and books, to write that in the margin of your paper was just ... you're on cloud nine for a good while. I let that paper get away. Also she ... another ... this is some insight into her teaching technique? HL: Go right head. GC: She assigned a paper and said "describe what you're writing on sing only simple sentences." Every sentence had to be a simple sentence. That was one of her ways of making conscious, to more of us, conscious oflanguage. Your way of choosing words and putting them together. So I had an old green footlocker that was in the room that I brought to college. Back then I felt that you couldn't go to college without having a decent suitcase and a locker and not just putting it in brown bags and boxes like I feel commonly people do today. Back the, especially if you were poor coming from the background that I did, so I bought a green footlocker with some of that money that I got from that car accident that was the other person's fault. I was just a passenger in the car that my brother was driving. But I sat at my desk and I worked hard when I came to college, and I'd not worked hard in high school 'cause I didn't think I was going to college until my senior year and then I realized I was and I buckled down some, but when I came to college I had to work hard initially and then I sort of got that halo effect as a good student and that helped me. But I wTote my paper, using only simple sentences, describing that footlocker and turned it in. She rejected it. She said, "you were supposed to describe what you were writing on" which would have been my desk in the room. [laugh] But, I thought that the footlocker was more interesting, so while I didn't put my paper on that and write it on that I said "well I wrote it on my footlocker" and she said "ok." So she gave me a b1fade on it. I lied. [laugh] But I guess I [unintelligible] lied because I still got done what she wanted to get done. Funny the little things that you remember like that. But, in retrospect I think that's good that she rejected it. You know by then I think I'd demonstrated that I could do pretty good work but "I don't care if you can. I told you do this and one ofthe things that you need to learn is to follow instructions." II It is called .. Birches" HL: You've mentioned a couple times that you as a students, and your fellow students, were aware that she was a woman of some standing just because she had published some books and talked about living in Hollywood and that kind of thing. Did you ever get a feeling about how she felt about what she had done in the past, like how she felt about the things that she had written or things she'd participated in. You said that she told stories sometimes to help illustrate something she was trying to teach in a course. GC: Well I think that I would have to say her attitude was more "no big deal." And that's just a matter of fact approach to this and just bringing in things like I might bring in my poverty • stricken background to illustrate a point. Nothing to be proud of"look what I did" or any of that "look what r did" in regard to this And I don't know whether, you know she didn't have a doctorate, and at the university level professors normally, especially today, are expected to have a doctorate and there were others who didn't of course at Western at that time still some .. that didn't guarantee anything. I don't know whether that, I never saw any evidence that that would likely bother her, and I think in the field she was in it might bother her even less than somebody say if they were history or something. But that may, and I have nothing to base this on, the fact that she didn't have a doctorate, even though she had this distinguished background and that other thing. That might have sort of balanced things but I think it's more likely that she just wasn't that way. I think t he fact that she was content to come to a place like Cullowhee and Western Carolina, and Lord was it so different then from what it is now. I mean it truly was just a little village with very few buildings. It was that she was, you know, not the type that was likely yo boast. She just didn't like the bright lights and all that. Monterrey's a big city now. I don't know what back then it was smaller I'm sure, and San Antonio she lived there. She just preferred the rural. She was home-schooled I noticed until she was fourteen which was interesting. Today it's fairly common. I don't know Maybe it was back then in Mexico. HL: Considering that you had such a positive impression of her. Having known her, or having been a student of hers, how would you saying that this has impacted you professionally or personally or or has it impacted you professionally or personally? How has you life been enriched by having known Ms. Niggli? GC: Well I consider the language about as important a subject as you can take because it enables you of course to do history and do all these other things, and as someone referred to it as "generative power." You learn to read. You can learn so much else. So speaking and writing are two very important skills, and despite hearing the language being murdered for the first many years ofmy life, because that it was just awful my language. In fact wen I went away to college, and when I would go back home, after I'd had some courses and been around people who spoke more correctly it was almost as if you were listening to a foreign language. You know you could detach yourself somewhat from listening to brother and sisters-I had three older sisters and an older brother so we'd get together at Christmas, Thanksgiving and we'd listen to them still using the language in the way that I used it 'til I came under the influence of teachers and especially in college. So she got me off to a good start in improving my language skills, and so I'll always ... I've always been thankful for being lucky enough to get her instead of somebody else who might not have been as understanding. In fact I had a, for my other literature or literature. 12 I just learned recently that it's literature13 rather than literature1 -+ [laugh]. HL: I think literature15 is maybe how they say it in Britain. GC: Yeah 1 think so. You know when I'd hear somebody say literature 16 I thought they were mispronouncing it (laugh] until recently, so I co back and forth now. I can't remember. But, my other literature professor was not nearly a effective. In fact I have negative memories. I did find • in his class that he just didn't have the same interest in really helping his students that Ms. Niggli had in helping her ... and because I had that good experience, even though I wasn't an English major but I liked the language, I took then a course in Advanced Composition just as an elective. That was under Dr. Mable Krum17 I don't know if you've ever heard ... she was a fantastic teacher too. She was quite different from Ms. Niggli, but head of the department for years. But then even though I'd never been an English Major, and it might not come across with my talking with you , but because of what she did I have studied. I have more books on writing and on grammar and language in my- the English language- in my library at home that I study than on any other subject. I read grammar books out of interest. I remember going to the doctor's office not too long ago for a test and the nurses there saw that I had a grammar book with me and they laughed that I was studying there when I didn't have to. I just bind it interesting. But, given the deficiencies in the early years, it's been especially hard for me .. While I've come to here, I do not appear like a lot of people would if they had just had it from the very beginning. I attribute a lot of that to Ms. Niggli, you know, getting me on to a good start. I've always said that the most important teacher in your school is the first great teacher, and I was fortunate that I had a fantastic first grade teacher. You've got a bad first grade teacher you're gonna struggle for a long long time, and Ms. Niggli was one of my first teachers at Western Carolina and hat got me offto a good start I think in the most important subject as far as doing well in the others. Certainly well throughout graduate school and so that's the kind of impact she had. Plus, just being a 12 The first "literature" was pronounced "liturature" and the second was pronounced "liderachure" 13 Pronounced "liderachure" 14 Pronounced "li tura ture" 15 Pronounced ·•liturature" 16 Pronounced ·'liderachure" 17 Possibly ··crumb" instead of "Krum." I have not had a chance to verify this information and simply have what the names sounds like in the recording. person you felt comfortable with. I remember saying to her one time ... we were gonna do a term paper and at that time I was taken with the oratorical skills of Billy Graham. Everybody knows Billy Graham. So I mentioned that I might want to do a paper on Billy Graham, and that 1 was really impressed with his ... and Mrs. Niggli wasn't religious. At least that was my impression. She said "well, why don't you do it on the magnetic personality of Billy Graham?" So I did my term paper on the magnetic personality of Billy Graham. One day she was talking in class, I think it was the literature class, about ... I can't remember the topic but values, and doing the right thing, and all that and religion I guess sort of crept into it. I said "do you really think ... " Before I say that let me say that I grew up in a fundamentalist Baptist church where, you know, the preachers if they are any good they don't prepare. They wait until they are in the pulpit and wait on the mood, you know, wait for the Lord until you know what you are supposed to say. And I said "But Ms. Niggli, do you really think that you can be really truly good without being a Christian?" I'll always appreciate the way she handled that. Rather than making me feel, you know, about that big, she just said gently, "Oh my goodness. Yes." That made me think. It didn't make me dig in, into my position and cling to it even more strongly, but that I think is fairly characteristic to her approach to things. There was gentle prodding. Gary Carden, I think in his article, said that she didn't tolerate fools gladly which is sort of a cliche, but that's not my impression of her at all. I think if you were a serious student, she knew I wanted to do better. To do well. She was tolerant of your weaknesses, patient with you, and behaved in a way that it would cause you to ... she wouldn't destroy that foundation that you'd acquired before you got to college. But, a part of college is learning to learn about what you really, what you believe rather than what somebody else has told you. So through her gentle prodding and questioning she would cause you to take from that foundation one brick at a time and examine that and, if it made sense to you, put it back. I'm not going to knock the whole foundation out from under you immediately as some of the professors did, but we're gonna do it in a gentle way ad get you to think fro yourself rather than having others do it for you. So, I always appreciated that about her. She did make me think. HL: Well I think that we have probably pretty much covered everything that I ... is there anything else, because I know that you brought some notes with you, that you would like to share, or that you think would be important for other people, or me, to know about Ms. Niggli that hasn't come up already? GC: Well I don't think so. I was just looking over my notes because I didn't want to leave something out that might be of interest to you, but through your questions and that I jotted down I think you just about exhausted [shared laugh] everything I know about Ms. Niggli. I hope it's been of some help to you. HL: It has been. It's been very fascinating. We went longer than we thought we would, so how about that? GC: Yeah [shared laugh] well I wish you the best on this. I'm really glad that they're doing this because she was deserving of it. HL: Well I've really enjoyed meeting with people so far to hear what all the different memories that all the people have about her. GC: Yeah. Well you do a good job with your interviewing. It's nice to meet you. HL: Pleasure to meet you. I've definitely been left with the impression that Ms. Niggli was quite a force to be reckoned with as a human being. GC: Yeah, Well I'm sure she was. She was all substance I'd say, and that in itself has an impact on people. There's genuineness there I thought, and as far as use and whatever way you use it, in whatever way you wish that ... One thing I am doing, at the request of is it Glenda? Somebody in the office. She wanted me, and I said I .... she asked me to participate on a panel with radio and don't like to do that kind of thing and I said I'd rather not, but you know I will write something for the web page if you want me to. Then, you called and wanted to ansI said "well I'm meeting with Hilary and I'm going talk to her so do you still need something put on the web," and hoping she'd say know. [shared laugh]. But, she said "well we would like for you to do that anyway," so if they do post that when I send it in. I suspect they will at least part of it, you'll see much of what I told you of course up there but I don't think that that will conflict with what you're doing. HL:No, no. And it would be interesting to read just in case you remember something else in the process, because the writing process works a different part of the brain I think than sitting around and talking about stuff. GC: Maybe that's true ... anyway, you use whatever you want. HL: Ok, thank you. GC: Do you need me to sign something. HL: Yes, I've got a sheet right here. Let's turn this off right here ... [End Recording] Date: 14 October 2009 Begin Time: 8:37 At\1 EST Length: I hour 4 minutes I 0 seconds Location: Media Room, Hunter Library- Cullowhee, North Carolina Equipment: Olympus Digital Voice Recorder VN-4I OOPC
Object
?

Object’s are ‘parent’ level descriptions to ‘children’ items, (e.g. a book with pages).

Part of Collection

Oral Histories of Western North Carolina

These interviews document the communities and culture of Western North Carolina. Topics include the building of the Fontana Dam, the history of WCU, stories from local veterans, integration of the...

View collection Read introduction
panzoom image
converted_cover_pdf