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Interview wtih Ethel Tate

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  • Tate 1 WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA TOMORROW BLACK ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Interviewee: Ethel Tate Interviewer: Lorraine Crittenden County: Jackson Date: May 20, 1986 Duration: 1:11:48 Lorraine Crittenden: Mrs. Tate has your family always lived in North Carolina? Ethel Tate: Yes. I: Where did they live? T: At East LaPorte. I: East LaPorte. T: Yes. I: Which member of your family started living there? T: My father. I: Your father? T: Yes. I: Do you know where your grandfather lives? T: He was there too. I: East LaPorte? T: Yes. I: So, they've always lived in Jackson County? T: That's right. I: All right, will you please trace your family tree as far back as possible beginning with your mother's parents. Tate 2 T: My great-grandfather lived here in Cullowhee. So, he was a slave but the Cowards was his. I: Owner? T: Owner. I: What was your great-grandfather's name? T: Alfred. I: What about your great-grandmother? T: I don't remember her. I don't remember seeing her but her name a little. This Elizabeth, that's only you know. I: Elizabeth Coward? T: Yeah. I: You didn't know what her name was before she married? T: No, I don't. I: All right if that's your great-grandmother, and your great-grandfather, who was your grandfather? T: Bill Coward. I: Now is he white? T: No. He's mixed, half white. I: Half white, half black? T: That's right. I: And your grandmother. T: Her name was Josephine. That's where Josie got her name from. I: What was she before she was a Coward? T: She's in from the Cherokee Indian tribe. Oh. Allen, I think Allen. Yeah. Tate 3 I: So, Josephine Allen was an Indian? T: A half one. I: Half Indian? What half Indian, half black? T: That's right. I: So, she's half Cherokee? T: Yeah. I: Once the slaves were free, what did your great-grandfather do for a living? T: He still worked around the Coward's farm. I: Was he given his own land to work? T: I think so. I don't know. I think so. I: Did you ever hear someone say that it was sharecropping? T: No. I don't remember. I: What else do you remember about your great-grandfather? T: Well, you know he was a good Christian man. He went to church. I: How many children did he have? T: Three is all I can think of. I: Do you know if your great-grandmother also worked on the farm or did she go to people's homes and work? T: No, I don't know anything about that. I: Did you ever see your great-grandparents? T: No. They died before I was able to remember. I: Before you, oh, I see. Well, tell me what you know about your grandfather, Bill Coward. How did he earn a living? Tate 4 T: Well, worked just working around white people, you know. I: What was he doing? T: Like he farmed. He took care of the farm and things like that. I: Did he have his own farm? T: Yes, he had this place over there. I: On Long Branch? T: Belonged to Grandpa then. I: It belonged to him? T: Yes. I: He own that land? T: Yes. I: Did he own the home? T: Yes. I: So what did he raise? T: Corn, just vegetables and corn and things you know. I: Did he have farm animals? T: I guess he did. I wasn't right around at the time or old enough to remember him at that time when we moved up here. I was seven years old when we moved up here. I: Was your grandfather still alive? T: Yes. But he had sold the place to my daddy. That's how come we be up here. I: Did your father and grandfather and grandmother all live in the same house? T: Yeah, when we lived to East LaPorte. Tate 5 I: East LaPorte. Now, your grandfather first lived at East LaPorte? T: That's right. I: Now, what did he do up there? T: Well, he made shoes. I remember because he made me some. I think now daddy made me some shoes. I: So, he was a shoe maker? T: Shoemaker and all just a little bit of everything. I: Was there much business for a shoemaker? T: It sure was. I: So, your grandfather had plenty of work? T: That's right. I: Did your grandmother work outside the home? T: No, not that I know of, but when now mother you know after she was married and lived in there, now she worked for a lady, Mrs. White, lived down the road there. She'd go down there and wash. I: Ok. Now, since your grandmother, Josephine Allen was half Cherokee, did she teach you any of the Cherokee customs? T: No. Well, we never did see her you know. See she died before we were old enough to remember and then grandpa married again. I: What was his second wife's name? T: Clarissa. I: Clarissa Love? T: Yeah. I: Did he have children with her? T: By her, yes he did. Tate 6 I: How many children did he have? T: He had four or five I imagine. I: Did he continue in the shoemaking business? T: This is my mother’s. No, it was my daddy's grandfather was in the shoe business I: What was your father’s grandfather’s name? T: I don't remember. I: You don’t remember his first name but he was a Rogers? T: Yeah. I: Where did he cane from? T: Jackson County. I: Now was your father’s grandfather a slave also? T: I never heard. I: What about your grandmother? Your father’s grandmother? T: No, I don't know anything about that. I: Do you know her name? T: Now, my father’s mother name, no I don't know the grandmother name was Sarah. That's the reason my sister's named Sarah Josephine. I: So, your father’s mother is named Sarah. T: Yeah. I: Sarah what? T: I don’t remember her last name. I: So, your father was a Rogers? Tate 7 T: Yeah. I: Maybe it was Love. T: I think she was a Love. Because the Loves were some kin to her. I: What was your father’s father’s name, your grandfather? T: That was before my grandfather. I: Yes, ma’am. T: Well, his name George, George Rogers. I: George Rogers. T: Yes. I: As I understand your grandfather on your father’s side was George Rogers and he was a slave who was owned by a Rogers. I'm not sure about the first name, possibly Hugh Rogers. Your grandmother was Sarah Love Rogers. She was a slave also. She was not a slave? T: Not that I know of. I: All right, your father’s father was a shoemaker and a farmer. T: Yeah. I: Now did he make shoes for people outside of the family? T: Not that I know of but I know he just make for the family because it was a crowd of us there. Fifteen or twenty of us at one time. I: Where did he get the leather? T: Well, they raised cattle and killed beef. You know had all kind of and tanned the hide. Had the vat to tan the hide. I: Had a vat? T: Yeah. I: To tan the hide? Tate 8 T: That's right. I: So, he did everything right here on the farm? T: Yeah, at his home. I: Do you remember your first pair of shoes? T: Yeah. I: What were they like? T: They were kind of hard. We kept them greased with tanner, but they were good and warm in the winter time. I: Were they high tops? T: No, just low top. Wasn't no boots. I: No boots? T: No. I: What did you wear in the summer on your feet? T: Most of the time we went barefooted. I: On your father's farm, did all of the children participate in taking care of the produce and cattle and so forth? T: Sure did. We worked. We were raised to work. I remember one time now my grandfather raised horses you know like that. So, Birdie, my aunt when we lived up there. I: At East LaPorte? T: Yeah. Go gather eggs up and that old jack, you know Birdie had long legs. She could out run me. Man I tell you I’d keep up. We had to gather eggs. We had to work. I: Now, you call it a jack? T: You know studs, the ones you turn to hunt the mare and raise horses. I: Oh, so like where he breed horses? Tate 9 T: Yeah, that's right. I: I see. He sold these horses? T: Yeah. They had everything up there. I: Did he sell any cattle? T: Yes, he did. I: What was your mother’s name? T: My mother’s name? I: Yes, ma’am. T: Ivory Coward. I: Ivory coward. In this area, Coward is recognized as a white name. T: Well, that's where it came from white's name. But my great-grandfather he was a slave but my grandfather wasn't. I: What was your father’s name? T: Wilson Rogers. I: Neither of these were slaves? T: No. I: What did your father do to earn a living? T: Well, he farmed a little and then he mica mine. I: Mica mine? Where did he do that? T: Well, they mica mine over there on the hill and there's work on the mica mine. Then there's a mine over at Potts place over at Diller town. Work the mines there [and George Frankman, he was a miner]. I: What was done with the mica? T: [Inaudible] Tate 10 I: What was made from it? T: You know stuff in cars and different things. Because we worked in there. That’s the most money I ever made was working in the mica. We could work a little bit. The [inaudible] Papa worked there so we could work there. We would work what they called punch. We would work that and that’s where we made money at in the summer time. I: When you say work it, what did you do to it? T: Have a knife and call it sheet. You cut it off just like if you peel an apple. You take the top of the mica you know, it's a block of mica. You take the top off. Then you work it on down and you know put it in the box. I: It was a very thin sheet? You’re saying your father dug the mine? T: He did that. I: Did your mother work outside of the home? T: Yes. She'd work, house work, washing. I: Would she go to people houses or homes or was the wash brought to her? T: Some was brought to her and some she’d go to the home. We carried little bags of clothes. I: You would go to people’s houses and get it? The children? T: That’s right and bring them home and mama would wash it. I: How's that done? T: Oh, we washed out doors. At that time you have nothing but a black wash pot and tubs to wash in. Sometimes wooden tubs and maybe a galvanized tub. I: And the rub board? T: That’s right. Boy those clothes be white when you hung them out. I: What kind of detergent? T: Oh, use homemade soap. I: Did you learn to make soap? Tate 11 T: Not too good. I tried to learn everything but I didn't do too good on that. I: Did your mom have to starch and iron the clothes? T: That’s right. I: How was the starch? Was there store bought starch? T: Usually just flour and water. At that time there wasn't too much, you know easy things for people to do. You had to do the hard things. I: So, she would make the starch from flour and water and boil it? T: Yeah. I: Then let the clothing dry? T: Now when you rinse them, the last rinsing water, what your gonna starch then you run it through starch, then you wring it out. I: And then came the iron? T: That's right. I: Since you didn't have steam irons. T: No, black iron. Usually, sometimes, most of the time we would be at the fireplace. You put your iron down there at the fire place and the fire place get it hot. Then you know who ever cookstove we’s use it on the good side. I: Now was there more than on iron? T: There was about four. One person would have four irons and you could iron two. I: Did you as a young girl help her with this work? T: Sure did. I: What can you tell me about your family’s life? Your mother's and father's family? Did they always live with your grandparents? T: They lived up there until we were let’s see… Josephine was eleven, Homer was nine and I was Tate 12 seven. My sister was five when we moved up here. That’s when we live over there in this house. There was a log cabin over there. I: You’re still talking about here on Long Branch? What made your father decide to move from East LaPorte? T: Well, my mother stayed there and she worked and worked, she wanted to get out on her own and raise her children herself. You know now there it was a lot of people there practically every weekend. I: You mean at your grandparent’s home? T: Yeah, you know that was all kind of people, white, black, and Indian and all. They'd come and spend the night. They were just good people. That was hard work on the women that had to cook. I: Why did these people come to your grandparent’s house? T: Just be happy. [laugh] I: What did they do for entertainment to come to your grandfather’s house on the weekend? T: Well, Josie said they, I don't remember, but Josie said they would, Grandpa would have some kind music. Some of them maybe have a fiddle or banjo or something. That’s when she learned to dance. He'd sit her… he had you know these homemade boxes they called hope chest boxes and put Josie up there to dance. She learned to dance. I: [laugh] What kind of dancing? T: I don't know. She learned to dance. I: Now, were these just friends that came by. T: Friends and sometimes kin folks. I: Your father had to provide the entertainment as well as the food and a place to sleep? T: That's right. I: This was done without his charging anything? Tate 13 T: Oh, no. They didn't know nothing about charging nothing. Everybody was you know [inaudible]. They was love one another. But that wasn't no love for the woman to have to do all that hard work. [laugh] I: Right. So, your mother said enough? T: Yeah. I: But in your grandfather's family would you say that the immediate family as well as the close relatives were closely knit? T: Yeah. They were because my father loved his daddy. Like you know. He went to stay there until he, you know, they raised all the family. He thought he had raised all of them. After he moved out there was another boy, George… he was born afterwards. I: Surprise. T: I guess they were just raised up to love one another, which that's good. I: So, each family member would take care of another. T: That's true. I: Now, once your father and mother decided to come to Long Branch what did they do for a living? T: That’s when they could farm. You know because they lived on a farm. Then he got interested in cutting wood. You know, different things and then got in the mica mines. I: Now, while he was working the mine, who tended the farm? T: Well, my mother and we, you know, us children at home with my brother, he would plow and we would hoe. He’d get the wood, you know, in the winter time and all like that. He'd be making money like that. I: Did he sell the wood? T: Oh no. He had to sell the word yes. I: I was gonna say if he farmed for someone else, how did he make extra money to buy things that weren't grown or made at home? T: He had to you know he could cut load the wood and sell it. Tate 14 I: Now, did any of your grandparents have the opportunity to get an education? T: My father did. He went to school here and then he went over to Franklin and went to school. I: He went to school here? T: In Cullowhee. I: In Cullowhee? T: Yeah. I: Where was the school located? T: Up there at Reynold dormitory. That’s at Western. I: On Western Campus? T: Yeah. I: How far did the school go? T: When he was going out there, I know when we went it was just seventh grade. I don't know. I'm sure it couldn't be no more than the fifth grade at that time. I: Do, you remember how long the school year was then? T: No, I don't remember but about three or four months. I: Three or four months? T: Yeah. I: Well, since the children only went to school three or four months what did they do for the rest of the year? T: Well, you know, the ones that farmed had to work in the fields to help. I: But during the winter time? T: Well, they had to get wood. There’s always wood to get. The ones big that was big enough, maybe go hunting. I: So, they would hunt for the meat? Tate 15 T: That's right. We raised hogs and Poppa killed beef and raised cattle and killed beef. I: Did your father have a smoke house? T: Yes. I: He would hang T: Hang beef jerky. T: My mother had a dairy where we canned at least a hundred jars of black berries. I: That was a lot of picking. T: Yeah, that was a lot of berries. I: And a lot of [eating]. What did she make from the black berries? T: Well, you know, she'd make a pie or whatever you wanted to I: Did you ever have black berry dumpling? T: Yeah. Then just getting them down for breakfast, put some flour in it would be good for breakfast. I: What else did she can? T: Beans and everything. I: All the produce? T: That's right. I: What about your corn meal and flour? Now, did your parents buy this? T: No, they raised it in that time. They were raising wheat and raising corn. I: How did they get it made into flour from the corn and wheat? T: Well, they got a man that came around and cut the wheat. I: Thrasher? Tate 16 T: Yeah, a thrasher. I: So, he would come to the different family’s homes? T: Yeah, at a certain time, he'd come. I: Did you have to pay him for this service? T: I think they called it a toll. He'd take it out of the wheat. I: Oh, so he would take an amount out? T: That’s right. I: As his pay? T: Yes, that's they way when then take that corn when they grind it. They take their part and then grind it. I think that’s the way the do it. I: So, what did your family really have to buy? T: Oh, sugar and coffee, you know sodium. Just your basic staples. That's right because we raised hogs and you know, cattle, chickens and everything like that. I: You said that your father owned this land here. Do you know from whom he purchased this land? T: From my grandfather. I: Oh, so, your grandfather, even though he lived in East LaPorte had land out here? T: This is my grandfather on my mother’s side. I: Oh, I see. So, he lived out here? T: Yeah, my grandfather on my mother’s side. I: He was the farmer? T: Yeah. I: He sold it to your father? T: That's right. Tate 17 I: Where did he go then? T: Well, he went down. He just… he married. His wife had died and he married another woman, lived down that road. I don’t know who own that land but where his kin live, his house there. I: That’s still on Long Branch isn't it? T: Yeah. I: Do you know if he owned that land? T: No, he didn’t own that. I: Did he own the house on the land? T: No. They said he sold the land to get married. I: He must've been quite handsome. [laugh] All right as you were growing up tell me about your childhood, schooling, what you did for fun. T: Oh, we'd go to school. We enjoyed going to school. At twelve, you know, after we'd eat, we'd play ball. That’s the only thing we had. I: When did you start school? What age? T: At seven. I: At seven? T: Yeah. I: And it went through the seventh grade? T: That's right. I: How long was the school year? T: About five or six months. I: About six months? T: Yeah. Tate 18 I: Now, have you heard of the Rosenwald schools. T: I heard it but I don’t know too much about it. I: Well, tell me what your school building was like? T: Well, it was just a little one room wilding. There was a wood heater. We had to get up gather wood for heating. [inaudible] I: Who started the fire before the children came to school? T: Well, usually the teacher would get there and maybe some of the older students. They'd have the fire built. I: Do you remember what time the school day started? T: At eight. I: Eight o'clock? T: Yeah. I: Now, you were living here in East LaPorte. I’m sorry in Long Branch. T: I went to school one year at East LaPorte. I: East LaPorte? T: Yeah. I: How was that from home, the school? T: It wasn't about two miles and a half. I: So, that wasn't consider a long distance from home to walk to? T: No. I: Well, when you moved here how far did you have to walk to school? T: l think it was still about the same. I: About the same? Tate 19 T: Yes. I: What did your family use to get from one place to another? T: Oh, they had wagons and poppa had a buggy too. I: So, you had a wagon and a buggy? T: That’s right. I: When did he mostly use the buggy? T: On Sunday. I: On Sunday? T: Yeah. I: What was the school day like? What was the school day? What did you do in the school day? T: Well, at first you know, we'd have the devotion you know, which they have taken out of school now. I: So, they had prayer? T: Yeah, that’s right. I: And the pledge of allegiance? T: Yeah. Then you know we'd [inaudible] in the classrooms. I: Who was the teacher at that time? T: Mrs. Bonnie [Katz] I believe. That’s the first teacher I remember. I: Now, since all seven grades was in the one room, how did the teacher manage to teach you? T: Oh, she just, you know, when she'd have a class up there with her you know the rest of them would be studying. Then you know everybody was [inaudible]. I: So, for instance if she were teaching the third grade of reading that’s then the other grade would be doing something that she assigned? T: That's right. Tate 20 I: Was it hard to learn? Her having to work with so many different grades. T: It didn't seem to be. I guess we didn't know no better. We just [inaudible]. I: What did you do for fun? T: During Thanksgiving we’d have… , I guess [inaudible] anyway we had fun. I: You said you played ball at lunch? T: We did at lunch time. I: Did you go back to school after lunch. T: Yeah. We had one hour. See we eat right fast and then we'd play ball. By that time we’d take up school. I: Did you play any other games besides football? T: You know the only game we were interested in. They girls against the boys. I: Oh, the girls against the boys? Did the girls ever win? T: Yeah, we could win now. Hattie Florence, was a good time hind catcher and Lucille [Cowan] she was a good pitcher. I was first baseman. I: You were first basemen? T: Yeah. I: Do, you enjoy the baseball games today? T: Yes, I do. I: When you finished the seventh grade then what did you do? T: Well, by that time they consolidated school. You know sent up to Sylva and Cullowhee and then they got Riverview, all down there in Sylva. So, we went down there. They called it the ninth and tenth. I: Oh, how did you get from here to Sylva? T: We had a bus you know. We had to walk to Cullowhee to catch the bus. Tate 21 I: Now was the school in the present location of the education department? T: Community building. I: Board of Education building is what it is called. T: Yeah. I: So, the school was there? T: Yes. I: Now, was it in its present state? Was it brick and so forth then? T: No, it was just a plain you know, a plain school. It wasn’t up there were the other school was. It was down there by the community building. That’s where it was just a plain black building. I: Oh, so after you finished the seventh grade, you go to Sylva and finish as far as the tenth? T: Next they say ninth and tenth. I: Ninth and tenth? T: Yeah. They call it two grades. Were things different, I imagine when you moved, when you were in school here, everybody knew you? I: That's right. T: Then when the schools were consolidated did you still know everybody? T: That’s right, because we’d meet them at church you know. That way it’s just like over at Riverview. When they’d have a school closing, we'd walk over there to the school closing. We got to where we know everybody. I: What do you mean school closing? T: They call, you know when schools out they call it school closing. I: Was there a special program? What was the program like? T: Well, you know they’d have speeches and songs. Different kinds. I: Did all the schools have this practice? Tate 22 T: Yeah, at the last, the closing day. I: School closed in May? T: I don't know, April usually. I don’t think we ever had a school closing in May at that time. I: So, it closed in April? T: In April. I: I imagine that's when people started farming. T: It was. I: How far did you go in school? T: As far as the ninth and tenth. That's what.. I got a certificate. Professor Davis. . I: Now which Davis is this? T: John. I: John Davis? T: He an oldie. I: After you finished the ninth and tenth grade, you didn't go any place else to get more education? T: No. I: What did you do? T: At that time, I got married. I: How old were you? T: I was nineteen. I: Nineteen? T: No, I was twenty-one when I got married. Tate 23 I: Now, you said that you were nineteen or twenty when you got married, so, that’s about twelve years in school. Why was that? T: Because he didn't want us to stay home. I: Your father? T: And he didn't send us nowhere. If he had of known you know, he made good money mining. He could’ve sent one and got one educated and helped the other. He didn't understand. We couldn't stay home. We had to go to school. So, instead of going to school, we got married. What's the use of us keep go over and over at the same school. I: When you went back, you reviewed the material you had already learned? T: Yeah. Of course you never get through a book. Because after you get up in eight and ninth grade you never finish that book. I: Oh, I see. So, that’s the reason it took twelve years to get to the tenth grade? T: Yeah. I: I understand that. You were married at nineteen and your husband was… Twenty-one you were twenty-one. What’s his name? T: Miller Tate. I: Miller Tate? Now was he from Jackson County also? T: No, he was from McDowell County. I: McDowell County? How did he meet you? T: Well, they were having a school closing over at Riverview and we'd always walk over there. So, my cousin, Violet and my aunt Hattie and her children, we were first cousins. So, she had been up in Virginia and met the Tates. She spent the night with them. She invited him out to meet her daughter, Violet. So, he come out and we were all walking to the program down at Riverview. And Bill he didn’t, you know, I reckon he didn't like the looks of her so he took on to my sister. He liked her. I: Josephine? T: No, Annie. I: Annie? Tate 24 T: The baby. So, they got married and then I got acquainted with his brother. So, we got married a year later. I: Oh, I see. Now did he move from McDowell County out here? T: No. She went down there. I: What about your husband? T: We stayed down there. I: In McDowell County? T: That's right. I: So, you started your married life in McDowell County? T: That’s right. I: Now what did your husband do to earn a living in McDowell County? T: He was a truck driver. I: He was a truck driver? T: Yeah. I: Where did he go? T: Oh, he'd go different places. See he worked there in Marion to be a [inaudible] he'd go to Morganton, Charlotte, different places, Asheville. That’s where his older brother, Bill, he and Annie moved to Asheville. He drove up there. We lived down in Marion until we bought a home down there in Bridgewater. We moved down there to Bridgewater. I: That’s a town, Bridgewater. T: Nebo. It use to be Bridgewater when we got a map, it’s on the map as Nebo. I: Nebo, I see. So, he drove a lumber truck? T: That's right. I: Now did you work outside of the home? Tate 25 T: No, not then because I… If there was a family lived near close I could go out and help her some. You know not all the time. I: But your husband made enough so that you didn’t have to go? T: Yeah. I: How many children did you have? T: Two. I: Two? T: One. I: Would you say that your husband made a good living? T: Yeah. You know. He went back home down there and built a new house. I: In McDowell, in Marion? T: No, down in Nebo I: In Nebo. T: Yeah. See his father lived down there. So, he wanted me, you know, closer to his father. But I loved the neighborhood. I loved it down there. I: Cars were. Did you have a car? You owned your own home. Now what year was this when you were married? T: Oh, Annie married in 1925 and I married in ‘26. Wait a minute. Annie married in 1924 and I married in… I: 1925? T: That's right. I: So, your husband was doing quite well to be able to own a car and a home at that time. T: He didn't own no home that time, when he got married. See he bought the home after we got married. Tate 26 I: How long after you got married? T: About five or six years. I: So, in the thirties he owned a home and a car? T: That's right. I: So, according to the standards of that standards of living, of that day you were middle class people as far as economics, money. How long did you stay in Nebo? T: We stayed down there until my sister died. My sister, her husband they moved from Asheville to down here. They bought this house and so, when she died, her husband Bill, my husband's brother, wanted us to come out here. Well, my brother had gotten into some trouble and Papa was staying by himself and he wanted us to come stay with him until brother got back. So, we'd come out and he swapped his place in Nebo for this place here. I: So, they just transferred deeds? T: That's right. I: So, there was no money involved? T: No. I: Now, what did your husband do when he came here? T: He farmed. I: He farmed? T: Yeah. He worked around here. Mr. Robert Davis tried to get him to come. I: At the college? T: Yeah. I: So, you just farmed. T: That's right. That's when I got the started. I: So, you started at the college when your husband moved out here? T: Yeah, Tate 27 I: Do you remember the year that you started working on the campus? T: I think it was in the fifties because Susie, Susie Bryson had to have an operation. She was off two months and Mr. Robert Davis had [inaudible. I was working down this white house on the right coming up that hill. I: Who lived there? T: Brysons. I: You were the maid there? T: Yeah, I worked there. So, he come up and asked me said [inaudible] “ Can you work in Susie’s place she’ll be out for two months?” I hated going, but I hated not to because you want to better yourself. I told Mrs. Bryson, “Mr. Roberts wants me to work in Susie’s place.” “I won't hold you back.” She said “You go ahead.” I said, “I’ll be back when Susie came back.” She said, “No I won’t be looking for you back because if you can better yourself you go.” That’s all we work for was to better yourself. I went and then when Susie got able to come back, Mrs. Virginia Wilson, she retired. So, I took her job. I: Were you a maid at the college? T: Yeah. I: Do you remember how much you were making then? T: When I first went to work a hundred dollars a month. I: A hundred dollars a month? T: But see everybody else was making more. When I worked at Susie's place I got a hundred and sixty dollars. You know Mr. Robert says how much money did you make? You know crazy, you know. You think people that were nice would be good and I told him. We were sitting at the table eating together, Mrs. Maime. They went to yep, yep, yepping and the next check I got was a hundred and forty dollars. I thought to myself, you know one thing I got that hundred and sixty at Susie’s because I was working there for years. I: Oh, I see. T: They had then to cut me down to a hundred and forty. Then when I got on permanent, I come down to one hundred dollars. That’s what they started me. I worked for years. I said Sue when do you ever get a raise. She said you hadn’t got no raise yet? I said no. I’ve been here over a year. I had to go right by the president where he had an office. I had to work at two Tate 28 buildings. I'd work at student union first and then go by place and go on down to Madison hall. I said I want to stop in there. President Bird, he was the President. I stopped in there one morning I had been working there over a year. From then on, I get a raise when other people get a raise. Now you know sometimes your own people, your own color can [inaudible] you. I: I've heard that. T: They can. Now they did that to me. I: How did they do that to you? T: He pretended that he was going to get me to you know give me a job. I: Who? T: Mr. Robert Davis. I: He was black? T: Yeah, he was black you see. He was a little [inaudible] boss. I: Ok. T: He and his wife were the boss over there. So, I you know when I was glad to get on because you know the best job around here. So, the day that Mrs. Virginia quit, Mr. [inaudible] he’s the man that hires, he got us [inaudible]. Mr. Robert come around and he says well, I guess I'd better go. Said where you going Robert? I got to get out and hunt a maid. Says why Ethel is here why you gotta hunt a maid for? She said she'd work in Virginia's place. Said he done asked me and I told him I’d be glad to because I need to work. When you working you want to work for the [dollar]. I: Surely. T: Well, you know it’s bad when people don't. I: He was going to look for someone else instead of hiring? T: And leave me blank. I: Now, I understand what you’re saying. T: You know I often wondered, now you know when he retired or she retired they didn't enjoy not one bit of the retirement. You know if you do right the Lord will bless you and you will retire and enjoy some. Tate 29 I: So, since you worked outside the home and your husband, who raised your children? T: Oh, my children were married by that time. I never. I: Oh, I see. So, you didn't have to work at all when they were growing up? T: No, I didn’t work while they were growing up. I: Now, were you and your husband able to give your children a better education? T: Well, I tried to but my daughter, my son, he soon went to service. I: Now did he serve in either of the wars? T: Yeah. He was out there when Japan, you know declared peace there. He was down there ready. You know when they dropped that bomb. I guess. I: Hiroshima? T: That's right. My daughter, I sent her to [Clark] She finished school up there in Nebo. I: How far did the school go in Nebo? T: It just went to the seventh. I: And [inaudible] in high school. So her aunt, her husband’s sister lived down there so, she stayed down there for awhile. She didn't want to go. I tried to get her to go but she didn't want to go. It wasn't long before she [came]. I: What about your other daughter? T: I didn't have but one. I: You had one daughter? T: One daughter. I: And one son? T: That's right. I: Was your son in active service? Tate 30 T: Yeah, that's right. I: Did he fight in the war? T: No. He was in a special unit. You know he was in the amphibious corps. You know just kind of like Marine, they call them ducks. They ride on land and water. [inaudible] I: What was the family life like at that time especially on the cold winter evenings when you couldn't go outside? T: Well, we would have popcorn, popped corn and then we play jack stones and checkers. You know and then we'd have a spelling B. I: At home? T: Yeah, you know just have different things. I: Were there taffy pools? Do you remember that. Taffy pools? T: No. I: Did you have a hobby then, needle work or anything? T: We would make quilts. I: Did you learn any other hand skills? T: Yeah, crochet and knitting. I: Were there many craftsmen during your time? T: Yeah. My father, he made plow handles. You know just anything that he used. He'd make hoes and you know just anything, pitchfork handles. I: So, most of the crafts were designed for some practical purposes? T: That's right, to use. You know if they had to use them. I: All right. What do you remember most fondly about your years at Western Carolina University? T: Especially, a girl in the wheelchair was the most one that I thought was wonderful because she was in a wheelchair and she took life as it come. She just as happy as a [lark]. You never caught her being down or nothing. She was happy. You know when she graduated she wanted Tate 31 me to come to her graduation you know I was kind of [inaudible] about being out like that. I just didn't you know want to go rut my sister went. She said where is Ethel? She made sure [inaudible]. I didn't go. Then I wrote to her. You know how you can write to people and then quit. I quit and after she graduated she taught school up there in Asheville. She'd write and send me the picture we corresponded. Then I read in the paper where she had died. Oh, I had of known that I would’ve went to her funeral. You know she was something special. Think in her condition and she was as happy as could be. [inaudible]. I: Did you ever become like a second mother to any of the students. T: They always come and talk with me. You know ask questions and I'd talk to them a bit as good as I know. Because I love them. You know. You love people like your own. Then Mrs. [inaudible] daughter, when she was a hostess at [inaudible] when I worked there, her little girl Joe, she was a little girl, eight or nine years old. She was around me all the time. I didn't know that she cared that much about me. She said Ethel, you know one thing, you… I don't know how she put it but you know she just looked up to me. I was something. I don't know inspired her or whatever. So, she met her husband on my birthday and every year on my birthday she sent me a card. I: Oh, that was nice. T: It was. I: All right let’s talk a little bit about some of the historic events that you remember. You were born in 1904. Do you remember anything about World War I? T: Yes, I do. I: What do you remember about that? T: What I mean, I don't remember so much, but I do remember mamna’s. Let’s see. Mama was so afraid that it would take her brother. You know she'd cry and I'd cry. You know worried about you go and get killed. My mother's half brother did go, Uncle Ed, but he didn't get killed. He come back. But it was [inaudible] You know. Worrying you just know they could just walk somewhere and get killed. I: Now, because of the War, I'm sure that the conditions at home changed. Do you remember if jobs were harder to get then or if there was more work? T: There was more work to do. Seem like the war open up getting a job. You know everybody who was capable. I: Do you remember the Depression? Tate 32 T: Yes, I do. I: What do you remember about? T: We had just moved down to Bridgewater. You know. We farmed. My husband was you know driving the truck. We got down there and hadn't been down there long enough to get the farm started. I got out and worked, do whatever they wanted me to do to make a living. That was a hard time. I: I know the Depression, hard time, you mean. T: Most of us wasn't making over a dollar or something a day. You know. It was just terrible. I: Did your family ever have to go in the soup lines or anything like that? T: No because I worked. So, his daddy, grandpa, you know my husband’s daddy, I think give them this food. He would get that because he was too old to work. I: So, the senior citizens were given food? T: That’s right. I: Was that the time when they had the stamps that you had to use to buy your sugar and so forth? T: Yes, that was the time you get your shoes and get everything. You had to get meat with those stamps. I: And your clothing too? T: Yeah. I had a book. I don’t know what I done with it but I tried to save it. [inaudible] I don't know about clothes but you did have to get shoes. I don't know about [inaudible]. I: At that time to you remember if there was any special programs set up to relieve the hardship such as work projects associations any kind of programs set up to help those who were near starvation? T: Yeah. Well, they did have a program set up down there to you know agriculture program. You know because my husband would farm and work too. You know. We would do the farming, His brother lived with us. So, me and him and my children would do the farming while he worked. That way you know he could get… see you know that we could live good. I: So, your family didn't have to go on relief? Tate 33 T: No. I: But he worked in the special agriculture, agricultural program? T: That’s right. I: He was given the seeds for his farm? T: That’s right. It wasn’t farm rented. We just had four acres down there. We didn't have a farm. We rented. I: After the Depression what do you remember next? T: Well, actually several years, then it began to get better too. I: You mean if there were more jobs? T: That's right. I: After the Depression did many of the black families or men especially leave to find work. T: Yes, it did. They had to to find work because they weren't going to work around there at that time. Now, there in the cotton fields, a lot of people worked there. My husband, he worked at the lumber mill. I: So, after the Depression your life picked up again? T: That's right. I: Where was your husband employed after the Depression? T: Here in Sylva. I: Lumber plant? T: That's right. I: Did you work then? T: Yeah, I did maids work. People I know lived up there at [inaudible]. People I know [inaudible]. I: How much were you paid for that? T: Fifty cents an hour. Tate 34 I: Fifty cents an hour? T: That was pretty good. I: Mrs. Tate, the church has always been a central part of the black communities’ life. What are some of the religious customs that you remember are no longer practiced today? T: It would be the camp meetings. I: The camp meetings? T: Yeah. I: Now what was that? T: Well, they'd come in a certain time when they get all the farmers up. You know they have a camp meeting. They have you know religion conversion. I: The no longer have the camp meetings? T: No, not now. I: Now, when you say camp meeting, do you mean pitching tents? T: That’s right. They'd camp around the church. Just sing and pray for a week. I: A week or weeks? T: They say weeks. It must’ve been two weeks. I: Would stay outside? T: They would camp uhhuh. But when I went down there they had. They would have the meeting just like we would have. You know. We would have a revival. I: Oh, so it's called revival now? T: Yeah, and theirs was camp meeting. That's where they would camp at. I: Can you think of any other differences? What about the church services? T: Well, it is different. It used to be two services but we just have one now. Tate 35 I: What about the community? Is that different? Now in some churches it was the traditional practice to serve real wine in a cup and this cup was passed from person to person. T: Of wine. In a way years ago they use to do that. They have a napkin and they’d give you a drink and you turn it around. You know that wasn't sanitary. I wouldn’t think. Would you? I: No, I wouldn’t think so. T: Now, we have glasses. Just a little glass. The Bible says use wine, but we use grape juice. I: Right. T: We, you know, that's imitation don't you think? I: Is imitation of the wine? T: What I mean. When the Bible says, the Bible means what it says. I: So, you think it should be wine as Jesus partook. T: That's right. I: Can you think of any other customs practiced by the black people that are no longer practiced? Were there family reunions? T: Yeah. But still they do you know. I: That's still today? T: That’s right. I: The family would come together at a set date during the year? T: That’s right. By that time the family had begun to break apart because the children would go to other places. T: That's right. I: To get better jobs. What were the marriage customs then? T: [inaudible]. Tate 36 I: In your younger days how did the black and white families get along together? T: Well, we got along good. I: Did you have white neighbors? T: Yes. I: Did you play with each other? T: Sure did. I: Now during that time, the family was extended. By that I mean your neighbor would come in if you needed help, if someone were ill or a family member had died. Was that here true in Jackson County? T: That's right. I: Now, was that true at East LaPorte? T: I was too little to remember too much but I think it was? I: What about when you moved out here? T: Yeah. Here is was good, but down there in Marion yeah, it was real good. Because when my husband was in the hospital I didn’t you know. I didn't have no way to go. He had a half brother that had a car. He'd came and get me one day. This white fellow would come and get me next and carry me. We would from Nebo go to Morganton. I: So, you’d go to Morganton to the hospital? T: He didn't know whether the doctor said he'd die if he was the last person to live. You know his bowel was swell up about that big. It was about seven days before his bowels moved. Doctor and me was setting up one night and he said Ethel, I’m afraid we’re going to lose him. He’s not going to make it. I said Lord, we must not think that. I said just pray. By morning, you know, his bowel moved. That doctor was so happy. He lived longer than the doctor. The doctor said he'd die if he was the last person. That the doctor don't know. I: So, you’re saying that your prayers helped? T: Helped him. That’s the truth. I: At that time, you said he went to the hospital, at that time were there separate areas for the blacks and whites? Tate 37 T: Yeah. I: Did you notice any difference in the accommodations or the treatment of the black patient? T: No, I didn't pay it no attention because I was more interested in him. I didn't notice him. I: Did the nurses carne around or just the doctor? T: The nurses come around too, they were good. I: When did you begin to notice a change in the race relationship? T: Well, when I went over to Asheville to the hospital, Memorial Mission. That's were Mr. Robert Davis you know, he was the little boss man over here. He was the one you know that hired me. Went to see him and they were down somewhere like in a basement. I thought to myself, Lord I wouldn't want to be there. Him and another man was in that room. It was around there, around everything you did. I: As time would you say it was only when Martin Luther King started the Civil Rights Movement, that blacks were given more equality? T: I think that was a pretty big help yes, because it was that I guess if it hadn’t, it would have took till war time before anything would happen. It’s too bad he had to lose his life for it. I: Before him, do you know of any of the black people that tried to make things better for the race or did they just stay in their place? T: I don't know. You know, this. You know during slavery. Do you remember reading about Mrs. what’s the name? I: Harriet Tubman? T: Yeah. I read that book. You know, now Pam Cook, she borrowed it from the library and I read it. I'll tell you the truth. She did a lot of work didn't she? I: Yes, she certainly did. T: Helped. I: But it seemed like there was awfully long spans of time before there was another black leader, who could bring the race together, the black race together as a united front to accomplish very much towards equality in America. Tate 38 T: Yeah. I: What was the worst thing that you remember about segregation? T: Oh, the worst thing was getting on a bus and it be right jam full and they say get to the back and the back would be filled up. How in the goose can you get there and it’s full. I: So, what did you do? T: Well, you just go on back as far as you could go. That’s it. I: I mean did you have to stand up? T: Yeah. You stood up. They had your seat. I: When you say they, are you talking about there was whites in the back? T: Yeah. The whites had you seat. I: So, you had to stand up? What about when the train started to run, say from Asheville to the Murphy Line, did you ride the train if you wanted to go places? T: Yeah. I: Was that any better than the bus? T: It was Ok. We was in a coach to ourselves. I: But it was better than riding the bus? T: Better uh-huh. I: So, that's the worst thing you remember, having to ride the bus? T: Yeah, and it be filled up and hollering get to the back of the bus. I: Do you feel that we've come a long way then? T: Sure have. A long way. I: Could you be a little more specific in which ways? T: Oh, in being equal is what I'd think. Tate 39 I: Were you at Western when the school was first integrated? The first black students? T: Yeah. I was living here. I don’t think I was working over there then. There was a black girl. I: Doris Galdet? T: I Think. I: I think she was one of the first. T: I wasn’t working but I was living down here then. I: Mrs. Tate can you think of anything else about your life that I haven't asked you? T: Yeah, I remember down here in Sylva, in a little old cafe on Main Street. My husband and I went down there and he was kind of hungry. He was a diabetic you know and he wanted to get him a hot dog. So I went in and the little girl, there was just a man and a girl working in there and some more mountain folks sitting on the stools. And she just fiddled around, didn’t even say nothing. Here comes a little old man, he had the dirties apron I have most ever seen. He come down there. He says, we don't serve black folks. I looked at him. I said well thank you and just walked out. And tell my sister about it. She said you sat there and didn't say nothing. I said what else could I say? You can't say nothing. If they don't want to serve, I don't want it. That was most awful thing that ever happened to me. I: It was embarrassing and frustrating and insulting. T: And down in a little place like Sylva. I: Well, thank you so much Mrs. Tate.
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