• Creator
  • Easterby, Sam
  • Sanderson, Perry
• Format
  • Transcripts
  • Interviews
• Type
  • Text
• Date
  • Date original: 1973-04-12;
• Extent
  • Dimension: 11' x 8.5"
  • Pages: 76 pages
• Source institution
  • Western Carolina University
• Identifier
  • GSMNP_Cata-Easterby_McGaha_1973_04_12

INTERVIEW with WYLCE McGAHA (9261444-704) Maggie Valley, North Carolina April 12, 1973 Sam Easterby and Perry Sanderson Interviewers 3- ~G,o C Os.s e-1---le. Tap e.s Boll; S;dc:>J o{ eacf] +afe LiBRARY GREAT SMOKY MOUNTAINS NATIONAL PARK ~· nol~, OffOSIIt. ~cr!_ Tapes 4 & 5 -73 McGaha IN REPLY REFER TO : Wylce McGaha UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR NATIONAL PARK SERVICE Great Smoky Mountains National Park Gatlinburg, Tennessee 37738 N-0-T- I-C-E No part of this manuscript may be quoted for publication except by written permission of the Superintendent of the Great Smoky · Mountains National Park. ~. ,.,.. . -· KEY All material flush with the left hand margin is statement by Mr. McGaha. The first indentation (5 spaces) is questioninb or statement by the principal interviewer. (Sam Easterby) The next indentation (10 spaces), unless otherwise noted in the script, is by the second interviewer. The tapes were taken off on a Wollensack 3M 6020 player. The fi gures /666/ in the body of the transcription indicates the index counter number where I could not understand what had been said. The (000) in the martin is the index counter number of that statement, for reference purposes. This has been taken off of the tape verbatim--at least that has been attempted--with no ed i ting whatsoever. Wylce McGaha Side 1 of Cassette No. 1 of 3 EASTERBY: Interview with Wylce McGaha, on April 12, 1973, in Maggie Valley, North Carolina. ylce McGaha #1 Page 1 hat's one thing I've never done. I've never been fishing on Sunday in my if e. That's funny that they would open on Sunday. ·eah. I don't think they ought to. (Break) ~ere was only about seven families, I believe, lived there when I lived on ,ittle Catalooch. Who were they? Who were some of the families that lived there? of rJ tntJt ~'' .Jrn. :'he families that lived there '? Ervin Messer and ca·11 Hannah and Uncle fack Hannah and That's Mark Hannah's brother? laddy Oh, that's right. '1i , huh. And Marcus Hall and Kimsey Palmer and Bob Brown family that lived :here when we lived there. Now where did they come from, the Browns? JH, huh. The Bob Browns? Well, I don't know where they came from. I believe ' rom Tennessee, lived in there. Well, they must have come in later on then. ~o. No. They lived there all their lives as far as I know. Old Man 3ob Brown lived there, raised his family, on Catalooch. I hadn't heard anything about any Browns in there. [s that ri~ht? Yeah. Who lived in the place near-- you know where the airplane crash is up there ? If you go on up that road about, I guess two miles or a mile and a half maybe, there is another place on up there. Who was that ? Page Z Old Man Dude Hannah they called him. Dude and Ras Hannah lived in that section you are speaking about. How did they get those names? I don't know. I mean they was called Dude and Ras Hannah. That was the )nly name I ever knew them to have. I mean I don't think that was just a 1ickname. That was their regular name. And then the Old Man Bud Messer lived ~ight in close to where you are speaking about, in that section in there. Were there any Smiths up there? imiths? No. Now they lived on Big Creek mostly. Oh. :'he Smiths. I guess we were heading-- Who was it? You know Sarge, Lloyd Caldwell? ~eah, uh huh. He told us-- We came out of there one time. He told us about a family that lived way on back up there. And we must not have-- I guess we told him we went five miles , I think we only went about a mile, and he said that would probably be one of the Smiths place. Way, way back in there. We were heading towards Big Creek. fu huh. Well now, I guess, I guess you might have. I never knew any Smiths V ~c 1<. .ived on Little Catalooch. Now, they lived on Big Creek. Old Man ~ Smith •nd his family they are talking about. Big Creek. Seems like I heard of something-- something about he was-- there was a bear slayer. .lt-0~ ~ Smith was his v~ c l.t What was that? ~gTSmith? name, uh huh. " ·:~"·-~"lf~:.;')• · ( wy J..L:t! L"lL:~.>ana 1f J.. ·Page '3 Maybe I am thinking about Jack Sutton or somebody. There were only about seven families? About seven families when I lived there. You see whenever we went to school we went to school at Big Catalooch, and they hauled us-- just a regular, well, it was a mail truck really what it was, that the kids rode in going to Big Catalooch school. And there was only I believe five kids at that time that lived in Little Catalooch went to school at Big Catalooch and there was about 16 kids going to school in all. 1Vow-l-h1s What was the school like '? \Vas i~ the Indian Creek school, Beech Grove school '? Did you see the schoolhouse /048/ Uh huh • ~.lZf-~ • .c! )h G.. little church? Uh huh. That's where it was at. What was that like? Was it like going to Well, it was just a one room school and all grades went in the same room. I mean if it was only, r:~1b~ one kid in the 5th grade. And then they would be, you see, statfin(.; 0 first grade and go to the 8th. That was as high as it went No. How about that! Did most of them just go into Waynesville after that? ~Yl.O»"l No. The only kids that I ever saw 4ft that part of the country, even BiL Creek, that went to high school was one family, of Hannahs, lived on Big Creek, oJ, uh, Mae Hannah's family. And that 1 s the only family_.-t-he people from Big creek, now at this particular time. They was some earlier than that went to Mars Hill to college. They was some school teachers. Mark Hannah's brothers, two of t hem ' ,. W'.J lee McGaha 1H Mark? Mark was one? No. Mark, he neve~ went to college I don't think, completed college I MoYJ} don't think he did, but Fred and ~ finished and was school teachers in Catalooch you see, and they are the only ones that I ever knowed of from that part of the country to get that kind of an education. Do you remember your school teachers? Oh yeah. Do you remember Glenn Palmer? Yeah, I remember him but he didn't teach me, See, they had done moved out .at that particular time. Also : there weren't any-- Who were some of the families lived in (1.1q)7J-- Q(LOUhcl Big Catalochee? Now you are talking about the ~nter of 1929? '30 and on up to about 140 ribht through. I believe we lived on Little Catalooch-- We moved in there-- You see my mother married Mark Hannah's .;: .... e.. brother and we moved in there when, on Little Catalooch in 1937 I believe it was. That's the year we moved on Little Catalooch. You see we moved from Big Creek to Catalooch. Oh. See, I was born on Big Creek. Well, you &Ot it both ways didn't you? Yeah. You had to move out of Big Creek, then you had to move out of Little Cataloochee. Yeah. Uh huh. Now, when we lived on Little Catalooch, the closest store, in other words, if we went to the store we had to walk 16 miles round trip. Was that into-- Big Creek ' ~· ,.,'Lr wy 1ee ncvana ~Fl ·· Page 5 "· How did you go? How did we bO? You mean by-- We just walked the hi Lhway most of the time I mean. Was that 284? Yeah. Uh huh. G V -cx L, All the way up there? tlli huh. That's a long walk. It's a lon;;;. walk. It sure is. Would you t o in one day? Oh yeah. Uh huh. Yeah. I could walk it in about, at that time I walked pretty s ood. I could walk it in about six hours round trip. Oh, no. (Laughing) Well that's n eu12.. Now, a lot of times we would take what we called 11ne-wer cuts," you know, through II kc:_ the woods instead of walking all the way around the highway, road, hut we would go through the woods a lot of times. That way, of course it was a lont way even that way, you wouldn't cut off I would say on all the trip maybe a mile and a half, but a lot of times when I lived on Big Creek it was, it was ei5ht miles round trip to a store. And I've got up early in the morning and walked to the store and back by the time I went to school. Oh, no. Why I heard-- Do you know Robert Woody? Oh yeah. Uh huh. Well he told me that, and now I can believe it, he told me that Uncle Tyne Woody walked from Asheville to Cataloochee in one day. I don't doubt it because, I'll tell you-- Well, if you're born any place like that you SP.e and raised up, why, you could. Well, I could actually run ,_.,. · - ~ - wy 1.ce" .Mcv~,na . •r; four miles at that time. I've run from my house to the store you know~ not in a dead run but I mean you know just what we call a trot. And when you was long winded you knm-1 You could really go. Yeah. Uh huh. W-t'Ytf People &Ee ~retty healthy up here? Oh yeah. Yeah. In fact I never-- the first doctor I ever saw in my life was · when I was examined for the Army? When was that? Hhen you were about 20? I was 21 when I went into service. 21 years and you didn't see a doctor? That's right. That's fantastic. That's great. What was the major market for the crops and things like that, well, say, on Little Cataloochee? Ah, there wasn't any market really. I guess moonshining was where they got their money, makin ~ likker. Now that was during prohibition? Uh huh. But as far as selling anything to, to get money like cattle or hobs or anything, they didn't sell, very little. A lot of times people would take chickens to the store and swap for salt, syrup Barter? Yeah And some coffee ? 19) Uh huh. That's ri ght. So many times the i.> i t, money makers were around prohibition I think Page 7 -~~ ·· ..... ;;!l' _,...:f;>;"'jr'$· '·.f ~,~~ ·.';"~' Wylce McGaha 'Ill Uh huh. Now if you had a lot of chickens you could-- Eggs was I think about 12 cents a dozen, a penny a piece for your e ~ gs at that time. You could buy your matches and soda, kerosene oil and stuff like that. Well now, what does a dozen e ggs cost, 89 cents somethi ng-- Yeah. You can't trade it any more either. No. Did you all do anything special on the moonshine, .or did-- Was it croocJ dfJ ~ corn likker? Just ret ular corn likker. Made it in what we call copper still you know. I helped my stepfather. He made likker and I helped him make likker for about seven years. Really! Yeah. That's interesting. Did you ever have-- What are some of the tales behind that? Well, really, there's not any tale except we just made likker like you would, well say, like you would [ O to a store and work for a living. I mean that's about what it amounted to. We farmed and of course you couldn't make likker cont i nuously you know. I t took about seven days really for it to, from the time you put it in til it was ready to run. Of course you just had to wait on it til it worked off you know. Did he pay you ? Well, no. I mean he would sell the likker-- And actually it didn't amount to anything because he never realized any money much from it. Just . .. ., - .. - something that practically everybody did I mean. Just drunk up the most of it /115/ c>~o That's that. I never;drink any. I never cared for it. From what I hear it was pretty potent. Huh? What I hear it was pretty strong. Oh yeah. s..-('_ You wnew there wasn't any church. Most of the people had moved out like I said a while ago you know. And when I lived there, there was no churches nowhere in that country. There wasn't a church to go to within 20 miles of where I lived and had no church services at all. No kind. )._;)-)-/ e_ . What happened? When did, say, services at the ~ ~ataloochee Baptist church end? -\-h£(<. €.. - Now they used to have services there but they didn't have any when I lived Abecause there wasn't enough people really to have a church--. Just seven families and, well, only time they would have service when somebody would die and they would bring them back you know, have the funeral in the church or something like that. But as far as they were-- In fact I never heard a preacher preach til I was 21 years old. When you went in the Army '? No. Yes~ that's right. I was in the service. When I came home I heard a preacher. That was the first preacher I ever heard preach. So that's-- Ah~c)wffft j\~1 w~61~JJ;~ say th&y woYld stop having t 1 J O..bov+ services ~ WYLCA·t (.{ '(Z..O(})Il ) flj~-h-tn... whe-t+ ymn.. Well, I imagine when they quit having services in there it was somewhere about 30, no 32, somewhere alonb in there. I don't even remember. I know most of the people moved out pretty quick after the park bought you know. Whenever they did that, why they didn't have any more services in the churches. Who lived in the Uncle Tyne Woody's place when he died and the park came in? Tyne Woody? I don't believe anybody lived there as far as I know after the park boubht it. There wasn't anybody lived in the Tyne Woody place that I ever knew of after the park bought. Just started falling apart? Uh huh. Yeah. Did a lot of the buildings start deteriorating right away? No. I helped tear down a lot of the buildinss on Catalooch. With Mark? No. Well, people would come in there you know and buy them. They would buy, say, you would buy a house for $300 or $200 and then they would let you tear it down see. There's houses all over the-- well, in fact there's several houses in this part of the country now that came off Catalooch. Hmmm. There was one on Big Creek that came off of Catalooch. I helped tear it down. Uncle ~f~annah's house but it burned down several years ago. e hod e._ Bur-~ Hannah. What relation was he to Mark? He's Mark's uncle. So he and, well he and Mack were brothers. Uh huh. Yeah. That's right. And so there wasn't any market after-- during p~ibition-- It was just mostly well-- /143/ They raised their own crops. ''J --- ''1- . '\ '!i.~ :lf" '~~ ·.·.-- ~- ' . ·.?'' !-'age "lU Oh yeah. Uh huh. I have plowed that, I've plowed that 8-acre, 10-acre field it was I guess with a one horse plow, just what we called a bull tongue plow, on Catalooch. I plowed 10 acres L1JJ!f That 1 s on ;Catalooch? On Little Catalooch. In that big field? That's right. I've plowed that with a bull tongue plow, all of it, with one horse, and raised a crop. With what they call I .J- t-UCU r fi q_, f-u rz...n l VJC /147/ o~ of the to~ile. plow you know. It's just a bull tongue plow that's '{Y]o .s~ ?C'Vplf CD!/ a s~raight ~ layoff plow now you know. Could you raise enough for, say, an entire winter? Uh huh. You could raise enough potatoes and corn and stuff to take care of your family and feed your horses. /149/ Ten acres. Did you plant by the signs? Well, uh huh. I plant by the signs most of the time. f: v e17 w IYh rh OJ e You know. ~e we~ seven families in there. I guess they were pretty close. Oh yeah. Huh. There was a real fat lady that lived just-- Marcus Hall's wife, Alice Hall was her name. Used to be, we would get a kick of seeing, her husband would put her in the sled. She was real fat, and haul her around in the sled across the hill with a mule. She was so fat she couldn't walk. /154/ Female voice: l.fuat do you want for lunch? Coffee? Do you drink it black? We have some coffee. That's great. Uh, black will be fine. Female voice: Well, cream and subar if you like. Black will be fine -;; ';:':~"- ;1<~'.';~~-~·- "l .. _",!:~f: "'"" • • '?'' 'f'_·-_ Wy lee · McGaha fFl ~,,. :W,' Page il What was her name? Alice. Alice Hall. Are those the same people that had that-- Let's see. You know where the CCC camp is? Uh huh. Right across the river there, was that the Hall place? I hcJ. Wed , Preacher Hall. Not the same family. I doubt if they are related, those ( Halls. Was that kind of a lodt e at one time? At one time, yes sir. We used to walk from Little Catalooch, us boys would walk from Little Catalooch across the mountain and go in swimming in that little tiny lake. up Did he make that? Did he d nt:1 that? Uh huh. 'Cause it's a pretty small lake. Yes. What is it, about an acre? I think about an acre. L~ huh. That's pretty small. Did you all come across Noland Mountain? Yeah. We come right across the mountain, from Little Catalooch. Walk over there and go in swimming and walk back. That's a lont walk. When did-- Did anybody have any cars in there? Well, there was two automobiles in there when I, when we lived there. Kimsey Palmer had an automobile to haul the mail and the school ki ds. The one down there? Yeah. And then Mark had a pickup truck. Of course that was before any of the rangers? Wylce McGaha f!l No, no. You see that was before he was a ranger. He bought a 1936 Ford pickup. How about that! Well, the roads must have been pretty &ood? Yeah, yeah, they was pretty &ood. CC was bes innin6 to work on them you know at that time, and put bravel and clean out to where you could travel them pretty good. You know down in Big Cataloochee Uh huh Going up towards Uncle Steve's place, Steve Woody, as you t;.O up that road there's a big field to your ri6ht and there's a big row of fir trees and they go back I guess about 50 feet or so. Did the CCC people plant those? I think so. I'm not sure. That's pretty. And it just hoes out there and stops. Uh huh. e n ou c,~ It looks like they didn't have11 time to finish it or somethint; . Yeah. Did you know many of those people? You mean in the CCC camp? Uh huh. I knew quite a few of these CCC camp. I knew more in the CCC camp at Big Creek that I did at Catalooch. They must have done quite a bit of tood up in there. Oh, yeah. They helped the people a lot. I mean LOt the roads to where people could travel pretty good, you know. Before that every time it come a rain or somethin ~ we were j ust a bout done. You couldn't go anywheres. Automobiles, wagons you know, about the only way they had to travel. People used to haul \AI./1 lumber from the sawmill that I was telling you about on Little Catalooch near ~Messer place all the way to Big Creek, and steers and horses and mules to load the lumber in box cars at Big Creek see. wy 1.ce MCl:iana 'IF -c:, ~~r~~""i~~rmr':""';, f~'"{•;rt;~l:"~' Ftp:;:-"13': ,•:1---f_. ,• it\' Going up to Newport or Tremont? \~ould they g,o to Tremont? Newport. Newport. What about, can you place, that Big Creek was Tremont Lumber Company. Yeah Or was that Suncrest? Which one'? Suncrest I think. Crestmont. Crestmont. Uh huh Crestmont. There wasn't much lumber in there in Cataloochee was there? No. That 1 s the only sawmill there was that I ever knm'led to be in that country any time. Well now, was it water driven? Pardon. Was it water driven or did he have a gasoline motor for it. I think maybe he had a-- No, I believe it was a steam engine. How about that! Uh huh. I 182 to 189/ Female voice: OK. Now let's see. Oh boy. Female voice: You know that paper I did and asked you a lot of questions /-- ~ ·- -} about the people over there and how they got alonb with each other and thin ~ s like that. Anything like that. I was mostly telling you about Big Creek wasn't I? · Female: Yeah. The old people. Well did you·want to know aoout ) Wy lee McGaha tl 1 Page 14 Well Big Creek was considered a part of the Cataloochee township at one time. It was incorporated into it. Female; It's all the same thin5. As long as you are telling it was Big Creek and then say it would, the same thing happened in Big Creek as it did in Cataloochee I guess didn't it? The same thing-- There is altogether a difference in the different communities. On Little Catalooch I never heard of but one man getting killed on Little Catalooch in my life. Hmmm I mean you know, in a fight or anything. But on Big Creek, OH MAN I'm C?l') telling you t~ Big Creek I guess Female voice (angrily): What was the difference? Huh? I don't know. I don't know why the difference but in that, well, it's only say around ten miles from Little Catalooch to Big Creek and I guess on Big Creek alone within ten years time I guess they was 50 or more people killed. /196/ Female voice: Hmrnm. You know, gun battles like they did in the west I mean. Did each one of them have a church? Huh? Each section have its own church? Each section had its own shift did you say? Church. Church yeah. Uh huh. But at one time. I guess the Methodists first came through this part of the country you know, and all the churches in that r .. ,~:~.-- ·:~,':1-~~;-:~"':;r~~"'~.?-!:1:i'"t_f':~:~r: - < .-' Wylce McGaha /If ' .. t· Page 15 · country was Methodist churches and the one on Bib Catalooch now still is a Methodist church I mean. But the one on Big Creek is Baptist. About all the people on Big Creek was Baptist. And it \-las a Methodist church in the beginning , but there wasn't enough people to even have a church. 1t was Methodist. Vv&J -thcv\- The only reli~ions you had was the Methodist and Baptist? Uh huh. Oh yeah /2031--- Jewish people--- Nothing on Big Creek but Baptists and Democrats. 1 - --) Did you ever hear any tales about the Civil War and how those people in that area went and how they fout ht? Oh, yeah. They was, they was a lot c£ tales about the Civil \-lar over there, how that they came through that country and killed people and so on, they was, the fact that people, a lot of them was killed you know. That didn't even, wasn't even in the service at all. They just come throug,h there and killed the people you know, civilian people. Just meet them in the road and kill them. What would you say, was Kirks Raiders '?' Yeah Came through? That was quite a battle. Do you remember. Robert Woody was tellins us about the first black person he ever saw up there. The first black person? Uh huh. Oh yeah. In fact I never saw a colored person in that country. They was some in there when they built the power plant you know. People that they [ w}rlce McGaha /11 brought colored people in there to build the Cat&loochee Dam they ca~led it. Power plant. Carolina Power and Light Company. But I remember the first I Mit colored person I ever saw I saw up pere in \vaynesville. I was a/boy and you know how our mothers used to, you know people used to tell them if they wasn't good the black man would get them. You know and keep the kids out of a lot of meanness telling them that. Well I thou8ht maybe he had gotten me. That's interestin~. (Pause while eating) Were there many Indians over in Cataloochee? Many Indians? I never saw an Indian in my life til I was grown. I never saw an Indian. Did you ever find any arrowheads or any signs of Indians up there? No. You never find anything like that much up in that country. I don't know why. Couldn't hardly ever find an arrowhead or anythint . There's one place over there they used to call Indian Grave Ridge and they always told us there was an Indian buried there but we never did know for sure whether there was or not you know. So there probably isn't. What do you think? Do you think there is? There probably is. Because this place-- I've been there a lot of times where they said he was buried that looks like, you know, a big pile of rock and so on. So it looks like they has been put there by hand I mean. Huh. It's probably just where one Indian died or something like that. It wasn't a mound2 No. Well it was almost as big as a mound, in rock I mean, they way they Piled them up so they claim. They call it the Indian Grave Rid~e you know, all these rock there. They say that's the way he was buried. I don't know. Wy lee McGaha 411 Where is the grave? \ ~ and I'm not sure ~ we +hen. Because we went up Woody Branch, and ~u cut south were on Indian Ridge or not. We never did find it. you know where you turned into Little Catalooch? Uh huh. The first turn above where you turn in going towards Big Creek, the first hollow turn to your right and ~o up that ridge about half a mile up there. The Indian grave. That's what they call Indian Grave Ridge. So it's not actually on the ridge. It's right on the south side of the rid6e. }J 0 \.,() Yeah. Weil it-- Have you been, have you been hearin& anything about what-- .High Top? Huh huh. Well now, that's from the gap at Mt. Sterling it's a mile to High Top. That's straight out the mountain from that, from the gap at Mt. Sterling but there's a ; newer cut I was telling you about, what we call newer cuts, and that's-- that goes right by this Indian grave that I'm telling you about. You can walk through the mountains. In fact, you can leave Little Catalooch and walk to :i Big Catalooch all the way through the mountains, I mean not travel the highway at all. Come off at Laurel Branch, they call it. About a mile this side of Big Creek store. Huh. Where was-- where was-- I've always heard that a-- between-- I guess, it's a Scottish Mountain and the Bald Gap. ~r Little Bald Gap comes ri ght down to Palmer Creek. t''" i Uh Jl:uh. ~ .},.: And tha t's what-- that was the-- where some of the people told us ~ n. [j/>-, that that was the main way that the people could-leftve Little Cataloochee Big Cataloochee. wyJ.ce Mcuana 7F1 Page 'is Yeah. I've traveled that a lot of times, the way you was talking about, right down by Sherman Woody place. Uh huh. Right down there. This is good (eating) Have you told him about the likker making yet '? Uh huh. I told him I made likker for about seven years, but my stepfather died and after he died I never fooled with it any more. Was it a pretty good sized still? About 60 gallons still What did-- how many different kinds you was telling me that they make-- different kinds of likker that you could make. Charted likker and ~1lt likker. Yeah And all that. Different ways of curing it out. Yeah. You see the only thing charted likker is, is they just make just regular corn likker and then put it in a barrel, see, that has been burned on the inside see. Huh. Got charcoal in it and that's all charted likker is. How long would you age it? Well, I ima~ine it would have to stay in there-- I don't remember exactly how long he ~~ it stand. I believe about ten days though in the ke5, with charted. likker./Now ~~orn it would take about, aaout six ~ eight days I think for it to sprout. See, you have to-- you ju&t put : <"1'4t~ular corn--i-n a bag and pour warm water-On---i.t - anQ ~over it Yp 1 Eiig a hole in the ::;,round and pour thi-s-.....wa.m--water on it every mornint; ana in .:· (McGAHA - continuing) Now to make malt corn it would take about, about six or eight days I think for it to sprout. See, you have to-- you just put regular corn in a bag and pour warm water on it and cover it up, dig a hole in the ground and pour this warm water on it every morning and in ~: :i' .. ' •:;·· ~· .. ,~ . . ·•· . ,.r ·--·~ ~ ,. , • .. 't<'c'· • Page 19 about six or ei ght days it will have a sprout on that corn, see. The corn will sprout and then you take and dry it and then grind it up and put it in your beer before you run it off and that's-- that's malt likker. How about that! Is that, is that the same way they make malt likker today? I don't know. It's the same principle probably. Yeah. They use the sprout , ev r rL'-'}~hP'"~ ~ . See, if you make real-- corn likker you don't put suga,r in see but then when it-- just take and grind up meal tnt huh. pvH- ~c/1ev~ Just like you buy at the store, cornmeal, and cook it and put hot mea-l, about 50 pounds of su5ar to a barrel, 60 gallon barrel, and makes a lot more likker you see. You can make about six or seven gallons of likker on a run and on re&ular corn likker you only make about three gallons and that much differ-ence, with sugar likker. How much yeast would you add to it, something like that? What? Yeast . Don't you add yeast to it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeast in it. tnt huh. Is that just what causes it to ferment a little faster? Kinda like a catalyst '? Uh huh. Yeah. When people-- ~- they used to put bran on o}h en.. won c)) top of it, you see, to make it cap, seal it in ~r ~ make it work off faster, in wintertime especially. Put a cap ~n top of it, out of bran, and it wouldkeep-- keep it warmer you know• Hmmm. That must have been quite a process . Yousay it took about seven days 'l ,Uh huh. ..,,...,.._." ,_.)'!• /258/ For it to ferment? Yeah. In the wintertime it would take a lot longer than that sometimes but in the summertime anywhere from five to seven days. Did you burn a certain kind of smoke? Did you burn a certain kind of wood? Yeah. To keep the smoke down? Yeah. Uh. You see if you-- Chestnut was the worst smoke. If you could get pop wood or something like that, you know, that didn't smoke much they liked it a lot better. Hickory, you would get a lot of heat out of it, you see, locust, stuff like that. And the revenuers didn't see it. Did you ever have any trouble with revenuers? No. Never did. My-- my-- Well I didn't have t J:ouble I guess the reason was my uncle was the Sheriff and he wouldn't bother us. (Laughter) That might help. Where did you run the mash off? In the branch or something? Just poured it out. Just poured it out? Uh huh. Didn't it smell? Q qtJad tA./CUfJ o£-J -; Can't you smell it from u__p this ~o~ay at all-f Yeah, but there wasn't many people to smell it. If they did, I mean-- people back then-- Everybody in the country made it (Laughing) and there was no reason to hide. Do you have any idea on an average of how many families made it up in there? WY .LI..'t' i "l'-\>CUl<1 'f L -.-.:·:,4"!f~. ' .... ~ . Page 21 well, on Cat-- When I lived on Catalooch, there was only one family that made it at that particular time because the park had just come in, you know, and bought and moved most of the people out but on Big Creek, just about all the people on Big Creek made it. Did they-- did they do this more or less to make a living or Well, like I told you a while ago, it was about the only way that you could get a hold of any money at all~ seeJbut it really didn't amount to anything much because the people that made it usually drunk up just about all they made and so it really didn't pay off I don't think. Me and my mother's made likker, I mean, see, what would happen, my stepfather would get drunk and right when it was work off and he wouldn't be able to work it off so I mean run it off so we would have to, me and my mother's run off a lot of it. He would be-- wouldn't be able to do it, see, and me and my mother You were talkin6 about, said over in Big Creek there were a lot of people that were shot and then in Little Cataloochee there weren't. They are pretty close. Why do you think that was? Well I think really the difference was the logging works, logging companies, you know. Uh huh. And on Catalooch, it's mostly virgin timber,l6u see there was no loggers in that country. At the end of World War One they was just putting the railroads in there and betting ready to work that country and at that time, it just closed down at the end of the war and they never finished it up. But at Big Creek, you see, it did go in. They had the railroad up there. And all these logging companies would come i9 there and cut all that timber and stuff and I think that's where the most of the trouble came from the people coming in there from them log::,int;. companies. ·~· Wylce McGaha {Fl Page 22 · Now, did you have a lot of outsiders come in at Little Cataloochee? No, not in Little Catalooch. Big Creek. Not Little Catalooch. I But they f )duO 1'}1 ~ you would ~ver see a stranger as far as that was concerned on catalooch. How was-- how was you received when you carne in? /277/ Wil, I think on Catalooch it was very friendly community. How about Big Creek: Big Creek no. They didn't like stran g er~. Well, how, how about the difference between Little Cataloochee and Big Cataloochee. Was there a difference again down there? No. It was basically the same '? Basically the same. Uh huh. Good Friendly people. Most of them you never had any trouble out of them people, ah, from Big Catalooch or Little Catalooch either. Was there anything peculiar-- did-- did-- that caused that particular community to develop that way you think? Why were they so friendly? Well, they were all kinfolks just about you see. The Suttons and Caldwells and Hannahs and Messers and Palmers. And that's just about what you had on Little Catalooch and Big Catalooch. And they were all kinfolks and that. I don't think they would &ive you any trouble at all. Somehow or another they just wanted to get along you know. And I don't really know why they got alonh so well but they did. ,· <... . ~ ..... ,_".'J):· if( ... ~~1!1" ' ·:·~-~--,.. _Fr.,...~·~~~-~~~·- ~; .... wylce McGaha ffl ,, Page 23 Yeah. I mean, seems like-- they would turn their cattle loose, all of the cattle would go to0ether and the ho&s the same way and if. Seems like they sorta took care of one another you know. If one got a sick cow why everybody helped, you know what I mean. They just seemed to get along real well that way. Was that the same around harvest time? Everybody helped? Yeah. Uh huh. If anybody got sick down in the community, like say somebody broke a leg or somethint like that, why if he stayed in bed all summer the neighbors would make the crop for him. That's the way they lived. Uh huh. That's great! Do you mind if I smoke? No. Go right ahead. My, that was good. Break 291 to 293 / c h~~ . e htJt /} '- So they stopped having church services about when the park came along? Uh huh. Yeah. And the circuit riders didn't come back through? . No. Who did the marrying up there. Did it have to be a preacher? Huh? Did it have to ~e a preacher to do the marrying? I really don't know. I think most of the people that ever got married came out to i.J"aynesville. Had to come to Waynesville to get married I believe. And about the only way they were to get out, walk, you know. But most of ~· the people that walked off of Catalooch come throut,h by The Pu:;:chase you r~ § see. Come up Caldwell Fork and right over The Purchase and down to ; >;o And it wasn't very far. • "•'""'' "V~JM" - •' ~,~:\-:"' . ~:'fi':"'~"''~-'l\~f~~:"""''M},~<'~·i · ''': wy.1.ce .Mcvana if.l Page ' What do you know about Caldwell Fork? Very little about Caldwell Fork. I've been there but that's about all I know about it. That just seemed to be developing into another community over there. Uh huh. Until the park came along. I know an old gentleman down here that's blind that could tell you an awful lot about Caldwell Fork. Probably he could tell you more about Catalooch than any other man I know of. Who is that? Blind Sam Sutton they call him. He's been blind all his life. But he could probably tell you more than anybody I know of. Now was he-- Is Jim Sutton his father? Uh, really I don't know. Jim, Now there are two or three Jims and I don't know which one that you would be speaking of. And they named them funny. There was a "~-lhistling Jim"they called him. And they was another one they Twu ~l"'rl called "Whiskey-' Jim." You see they had to give them names like that in order to when they were speaking of one they would have to call. And then there was one they called "Singing Jim. 11 Now-- now-- I don't know which one I'm talking about now. Well, really, I don't think Jim was this fellow's name that I am telling you about. He is about 70 years old but, boy, he's ~ ot a mind. He can . remember. He could probably tell you every person's name and their age. could tell you more than anybody I know of about Catalooch. I would like tqrneet him. when will you be back over here or do you know? Wylce McGaha ii ·-:~., --~~~~;\{._'#~trT·V~. ~ Page .25 •. ,.~. -- . :.;; ,· ·~- ,; ~<:i~f··.:. I can come any time. well, any time you come over I would be glad to go down there with you and introduce you and all you will have to do is just start a conversation. He'll tell you something. How about that! Wasn't that picture up there made on Catalooch? Yeah. Now, that was made with one of my sisters. That's my grandmother. Was the frame made up there too? No. My stepfather gave me the frame. That was made on the porch on Little Catalooch at the Will Messer place. It looks like quite a porch too, I mean as far as the work . Yeah. Now was this the copy? Let's see ~grandmother's picture is in the pa-- in the 4th and 5th Erade history book. That's where that picture came from Really! Uh huh. In the North Carolina history book! Uh huh. you get that book for me. Another voice: He wa's just lookint throu~h the history book one day and happened to see that picture in it •. And you already had this one up here? No. You see this is a duplicate of it. He took the history book to a buy and had him do this \}1 \.jl (e.. paint i n0 from it , was tellin0 him what color ' ·.~.: . ~ : ,.~.rr · ~' ..... ~ ......... ..... ~~~·~:"/\';')"'~~.': ..... f."'"' ,.~ ~""f'l • ,. Wy lee' McGaha {Fl Page 26 ' - ~ everything was you know and he painted it up like that. That's really something. He recognized his aunt as being in that history book. Pause You know there was a house down on Big Cataloochee. It was the Caldwell place. Caldwell place? Uh huh. Had a big barn across the road. It's on the road up to-- it's just above the horse camp or the old schoolhouse down there. Oh, yeah. I know the house you are talking about now. That was where Lush Caldwell lived. Lush Caldwell. Uh huh. And there was an exact copy of that, well almost. And is this the same house '? , No. No. This house was on Little Cat:alooch and Female voice: Anything else? 2 Fine. Female voice: Do you want some more coffee or anythinb• No. No. I've quit drinking coffee. Didn't you know that? Yeah. /318/ Let's see. I was goin& to tell you how many rooms that house there had in it. Thirteen rooms this house here had in it. Will Messer place? was quite a house. He owned the general store and the sawmill. So he had-- he had accumulated quite a bit up in there didn't he? Yeah. He was-- he was I guess one of the wealthiest men that ever come off of Catalooch, I mean that came out and made the bibgest &overnment, Uh, become wealthier since then but when he sold his place he went to Caldwell county and &ive $60,000 cash for a farm and $60,000 back that time was some money. In cash! So he must have gotten quite a bit from the park. He was worth a lot of money even before he sold to the park. He was worth a lot of money. In fact he &ot. Actually all the money there was in that country came to him you know, because he had the store and so on. Did you all rely a lot on the mail order catalogs? Yes we did. Uh huh. In fact that's-- well now, they was-- they was a store on Big Creek that handled might near all the boods that a person had to have but a lot of people did order from Sears and Roebuck. That's right. What did you order mostly? Just, I guess, they stopped making shoes { up in that area? Yeah. And you-- ~ They begin to order shoes, you see,from Sears and Roebuck. Had to order shoes. And dresses. And mostly in the spring of the year or late fall they would order, &ettins orders for clothes from Sears and Roebuck. t· Now would you-s-a"~' that-- that when the catalog carne along and they started orderint , is that when most of the, say, the women would stop making their own clothes? Or woul~ they continue to make them? ct b crJ}- + h 11._ They continued-- uh-- as far as-- in fact t:hey only thing they About the only thing they would order, or '~ ·::r-__,_. ,,.,. .._1 "1 - · ·~"'"""'-;:~<'\··: -r-p·age ·28 · maybe a hat or somethin5 like that you know. I mean, but as far as dresses I never saw a woman I guess with a store bouLht dress on in that country until I was 15 years old. They all made their clothes. What was-- Go ahead. Did Sears and Roebuck at that time hav.e medicines Oh yeah In their catalot . Did you all make most of your medicines or did you order them throush the catalog? Made most of the medicines. What were some of the herbs that you used? Well, they'd maae up a lot of different thinbs• I don't remember. My grandmother, she used to make a lot of medicines there. I just about forgot. For different things. Well, I guess, take anybody with the croup, take a kid choke up, groundhob oil is the best thinb in the world for that. ~> ~-::· You couldn't ever find anything better than groundhog oil for croup. I mean today I would risk it as quick as I would anything that a doctor could you, a kid that was really choking up. I would say give him some grease before you t;ive him anythin:; else.. That's right. How about that! w~at were some of those others? Do you remember some of them? Some of the other medicines that they-- whether I can recall any of the herbs exactly or not. used for kidney, I remember that /background screech/ they would tree bark and red alder and peach tree and horse radish up and drink that and that would be as bood kidney medicine as of at that time. t!-" ..• f '• Wylce McGaha :ftl Whew! /340/ It would clean the who1le system out. Se en.J 111<- t" . Uh huh. And people used to get, well-- they would take what they call "bitters'' you know, They would take likker that they would make and they would put a lot of cherry tree bark and stuff like that in it and set it on the fireboard and they would come along and drink every night maybe before they went to bed they would ~et them a drink of that. And then a lot of people of a morning the first thing when they would get out of bed they make what they called a "gint;er stew. 11 They would take likker and weaken it down with water and put it on the stove and boil it and put ginger and likker and water and make what they call 11hot drink.'' And they would drink that, It would be the first thing they would drink of a morning when they got out of bed, It would be kind of like what some people call a "hot toddy" today? Yeah. It's good I mean for colds and things like that. What would you do if somebody came down with a real hiLh fever like that? , oh, I really don't remember exactly what they did do. I know they'd lot of tea, like hot tea, catnip tea, and stuff like that you would cause them to sweat. Uh huh. them a lot of that and wrap them up real good, And sweat it out? .,._ '~~!1'- · t. ·~':'(1,_-.,:<=:":_i"'" "I ... ":"'": . ~· &'--~ua. . 11" Did they make a lot of poultices? Oh yeah. Uh huh. And they'd-- I remember seeing little kids would wear somethint; like a bead that was asfidity *, what they would call "asfidity." A small kid would have that around its neck. I guess that was to keep the t,erms or somethin:.;, keep them from takin ~ colds a lot. I remember that. Was there still a requirement by law for the people to work on the roads? Oh yeah. People that-- I can remember when people over there in order to pay their taxes would work, would work the hi shways, see, they would have to work the roads to pay their taxes. Well now, was that actually a law? Did you have to work the roads? You either had to work the roads or pay it. I see. I mean you had your choice. /351/ What was it if you took a mule along, knock off a day's work. huh, yeah. That's interestin&. you had a team of horses, in other words, and mules. Mostly in that country was mules. And you take a team of mules and work I believe they days for a man and team. Did you ever do that? I never had to work the roads to pay taxes or anything. I've worked lot but I mean just lob~in g roads and things like thpt that on. .. ... . -~~ -,.., .. ~,"~-· .. ,~~· :n.-r "'·''-'~'·~: · ·.··· ~ ·;,-: '"J --- ·---.... - ·.-.:.-, ~ ,-... ~· - ~ ... rage "1 Was it mostly just picking rocks and gettin& trees out? Beating them up. Knocking them down to where trucks and things could go over them you know. Very little dynamite. It was mostly hammering, beating. Ah~ hah. Here's the picture. Pause Female voice. That fellow did a good job on that. It sure is. That's your aunt? Female voice: Nope, my 5randmother. Grandmother. How did you t et the colors out of it? Well, I had that sent to, well, that oil painting-- I sent it to New York and had it sketched. How did you know what-- did he just decide to paint her blue? No. I told him what color. I remember seeing my grandmother wear that dress. I remember the dress she had on when /359/ I was thinking about the railing on the porch. Did most of the people make their own furniture? everything, just about. Were there a lot of store bou6ht beds or were they mostly home? Back then a lot of people did have what you know, iron bedsteads. I guess you've seen them. That's mostly what if they was any store beds in the c?untry that's what it was. It was Will Messer that was a big carpenter up there wasn't it? Or did each family make their own? "'r.'r,·~~~··: .... /~-,~~:;,--~ • ~(' ;· /,'T<"f' ·"~ Page 32 . Old Man ~ick Smith was the best carpenter in that country. He was the one that built this house, Will Messer house. He used to make all the tombstones and stuff like that that was used in that country. Was you in the cemeteries at Catalooch? I have been to the Hannah cemetery. Well, did you see these little rocks, the tombstones made out of small creek rocks just, oh, about this big'? I don't remember it. It used to stand up about so high you know, this wide. It was all made out of tiny little rock. Old Man llick Smith used to make them. I saw one over in the Palmer cemetery Uh huh. It was cast iron. It was an iron tombstone. It had a place in the center of it, it was cut out for a windo'~ and there was a glass, a piece of glass. bvl,.- .rJ.., -( qlau htt cJ ~C~ ) /r:n ouJ. He made that. That's his. Old Man \tick Smith. Was he a blacksmith sort of too? Yeah, yeah. He could do most anythint . I mean, he was a good carpenter and he would do cement work and stuff like that. Was steel a pretty valuable commodity then? There wasn't too many people in that country that was able to temper mesh. They was only one blacksmith on Big Creek, Old Man Sage Sutton, the best one that I know of. He could temper steel til it would Hrnmm. Page 33 And usually go to people like that you know to make stills. Say-- you have-- you have to know pretty well what you was doing. You see they had to make the stills. You would buy your copper brads and buy your copper in sheets and you would make a still just like you was going to make a barrel k'- s ol de. R. erl or anything, see, put;tobether with these rivets and then c~re drit~, S o! den...._ not core dri.l-l., would have to be welded in some way. I don't know just how they done it, to keep it from leaking you see. It had to be able to stand that heat. Wonder-- I guess that was kinda obvious going to buy sheets of copper. ''Say, what are you going to use that for?" None of the revenuers-- you said was your uncle Sheriff. Yeah. What was his name? Thomas McGaha. /3751 Is Thomas still living? yeah. He is still livinb• Uh huh. Well, you met him didn't you? Uh huh. He was sheriff of Haywood County? was just a sheriff of that section over there. He wasn't high No, yeah, it was Haywood County but it was just a Was that-- was that the same period that-- '~ich Caldwell was it, ~ Palmer that was the Hi gh Sheriff? I believe. Glenn Palmer wasn't itZ I don't no.yn-e It was Glenn Palmer's father. What was his-- can't remember his his father was the Hi&h Sheriff. Was there-- was there-- a definite call for a lot of law up in that area? ~vl 6 u+ (4 L,_ <: i r t lp----r1l- Wy lee McGaha · 1Fl Well, not in this particular place. Now a lot of times it was more. Loggers just didn't come in that country. I mean if-- I have heard this. Gnu of Co.sseH.P fJ I -~.. r;; $,cJe I of C of J t'I--J-(' ;i: 2_ Now I don't know if it's true or~ If the law ever had to come in there they would always send word before they got there. It was pretty risky for a sheriff to come over there. (Laughter) Was that Big Creek? That was 3ig Creek. Now in Cosby, Tennessee, just a little ways from Big Creek there whenever the law would so in that country they would let off a blast, you know, dynamite, and let the whole community know that the sheriff was in, see. They would make sure then But on Catalooch or 3ig Creek area they never, never bothered. There was no danger. I never saw a sheriff in that country I mean except my uncle. Did they ever arrest anybody and have them stand trial for anything? No. I never, I never knew anythin& about I mean as far as without somebody got killed or something like that you know what I mean. It had to be something like that. As far as making likker or fiGhtin ~ or somethin& like that you know you didn't have no trouble. Wasn't nobody bother you. Pretty free to do whatever you wanted to. -Where did you have to come to court? Did you have to come to Waynesville? Yeah. What was the general attitude of the pe?ple when the park came alan[ ? , boy. That was-- that was-- I guess-- I don't think they was a person that count ry that was happy. Even they was paid well I 8 ~ess at tha t wY lee McGaha 111 · particular time for their property. But there was nobody happy about it because they didn't want to move out. They wanted to stay. l4hat do you think would have happened to Cataloochee or Little Cataloochee if the park hadn't come along? Do you think they would have been able to remain an isolated mountain community? Oh yeab. More now than eve.r before. I mean it would have survived in one of the breatest ways because they would have had ways of gettinb in and out you know. automobiles and stuff like that. So it would have survived I think as much as any other part of this country, would have been Big Catalooch and Little Catalooch. Now Big Creek has went down a lot. But I think Catalooch would have really survived. I mean it would--it would-- it would have been one of the most prosperous sections of this count~y I think. About how much bottom land was there on Little Cataloochee for farming? bottom land? Well, well say real good farmland? Well, on the Will Messer farm alone, I there was at least a hundred acres you could plow with a 0 f Ca,,. Ll e H, 9 I Wy ice McGaha t<l Page 36 And I'd say-- I'd say on Little Catalooch alone-- maybe-- uh-- good farmland, real good farmland, would have averaged--outside of his place-- would have averased 30 acres to a farm, good farmland. Just before the park went in there were about 30 families up there? (Long pause) On Little Catalooch-- let's see-- I would say around 35 to 50 families on Little Catalooch. I don't-- I can't recall all the old homeplaces. I would say around 35 to 40 when we lived on Little Catalooch. Of course Big Cataloochee is bigger. Oh, yeah. A lot bigger. I would say there was around 75 to 80 homes on it, on Big Catalooch. So that's around 400 people, huh? Yeah. It had to be that, I guess, because . they v;·as all big families. I would say average fam i ly at that particular time was around, I would say ei6ht, ei6ht in the fami ly. That is-- that's a large one. What-- what was-- what was your main contact with the outside world7 Did they have radios or newspapers or anything like this to keep up on the news ? No. The only radio there was on Bi g Creek , I can remember now and that's just when the radios first bes in to come out, you know earliest years. I can remember two families had the radio. Well, three families had a radio. J,f") He had one and old man .Je..f.£. Hannah had a radio. They was on bat t ery. l~ay back then it was that old bat tery type you know. woua last about a week f ! ! t t I Wylce McGaha #1 Page 37 and you'd have to send them back and get them charged and back in. You had radio about half the time or less, you know, and You rememoer some of the stations you used to listen to? We used to listen to Grand Old Opry all the time, I mean, we'd get that and Where did it come from, Knoxville or Nashville? Nashville. Uh huh. Yeah. We could get it, t et it &ood in that part of the country. Let's see. That was-- IVhat is that station over there that was-- it's one of the oldest stations in the country? Uh huh. WHC? I don't remember what-- At that time we used to all get around and listen to Joe Lewis fight back then, you know. Yeah. We could pick-- we could 0et fiehts. Now was that-- was that when you had a radio did that become kind of a focal point 'illhere everybody gathered? Uh huh. Oh yeah. People'd come. Well it was just sorta like people going to a movie or something like that you know. I mean just one or two W\'lo\<. radios in the~community and every uody in the community would, all the families would gather in to listen to the radio on Saturday ni6ht. Stuff like that. Did they have square dancing? Oh yeah. We used to have square dances. Uh huh. Who played the music ? Arthur McGaha played on Big Creek. We didn't have /em on Little Catalooch, I mean we made a lot of music, but I mean we didn't have what we called shindi ~ s, square dances. On Big Creek we did have. About every Saturday night we would have a square dance and chicken wobble. A WHAT? Wylce McGaha ffl Page 38 Most of the times they'd be a bunch of the boys, you know, would go out and steal a chicken or something and bring it in and cook it. "Chicken wobble" yGU-..Ca.lled--i-t"? \}.!( C'.c1 \) r) 1+ Chicken wobble, uh huh. During election time did you have-- You said about every family was Democrats. I don't guess you had a lot of friction between them-- There was one time we had trouble. (Laughing) I had an uncle that moved to New Jersey and he came back and he was wanting to vote ·I think Republican ticket. He wanted to'? He wanted to. And they had a little trouble over that. How did you go-- did you have to go to Waynesville to vote or did you-- No, no. We could vote over there just like you know,here up to about I be_)ie 1/C. DIJ-four or five years ago there was only four people ~n Catalooch that could vote and they would vote them there. We had three or four over on Creek too. All the people over there voted in that section. lfihere was the voting place on Cataloochee? Was it down at the-- think it was held at the schoolhouse, the best I remember. Was election time a big thing, I mean did they do a lot of IYl politickinb up;there? there wasn't much politicking to do. No. I mean none of the people ever come in you know. Maybe a sheriff or some thin~ like that, hi::,h sheriff runnln::_, he'd come throut,h but they knew what vote they was getting anywhere so they didn't-- I don't think they bothered to come over there. Wylce McGaha Page 39 How religious were the people in Cataloochee at that time? They was, most of the people on Catalooch was religious people. Uh huh. Yeah. They were real bOOd reli~;.ious people. I mean whel"'€ver I'd know 'em. \jJ Ct5Yl '~ Now on Big Creek they ~e, they were just different there. Big Creek sounds like it was quite a place. Well. ~o/ grandfather killed three men and then his own brother killed him. So you can sorta fihure. Take it from there. How about that! Yeah, there was a lot of killing on Big Creek. .K l)')c) Q You know, when they_, how did the-- this is ~ of clumsy question, but how did the people satisfy their religious needs when they didn't have a church'l Well, really I don•t know. I mean, they just read their Bibles a lot and they would talk, talk a lot totether, you know. They would gather up on Sunday or somethin& like that and sit and talk. Well say, your neighbors .I<.Jqh+ would start comin~ alon5 about 8 or 10 o'clock, somewhere~along in there and they would come and stay the entire day with you. I mean they didn't come and leave in 20 minutes or 30 minutes but when they come for the day, go back in time to milk and feed and so on. Now was that more of a social 6athering than it was a relibious Lathering'? Well, they would, they would talk relit;,ion. And mostly, I mean that would be the general subject,was relition on Sunday especially. They was shoot-very religious about doint thint,s like for an example a-b:l:Xlt a gun or anythint, like that. That's somet:hinE_ you would never hear on Sunday, shoot a tun or somethin~. You could shoot a gun over there and it would sound like cannon going off you know, its roar in them mountains for-- you never hear a racket like it. Wylce McGaha /fl Page 40 Now would they make, would they make whiskey on Sunday too? Nuh nuh. No. There was nothing went on on Sunday, I mean, that was the day that nobody done anything except they would set up and cook and eat and there was no work, none whatsoever. tYll.>~~ Do you remember any of the talks that they had? Huh? Do you remember any of the talks ? No. Usually I was out playing or something you know. A lot of the kids would always get out and play games of all kinds, I mean, leave the-- 'i.Je never sit around and listen to the adult people talk, I mean. At that cndJrzen time they didn't want the ~s around them. If you'd come around and interrupted they'd put you on the go, and tell you to go play. What were some of the games you played? Oh, we'd-- Base was general. I don't know whether you know what that is or not. No, I don't. It sounds like it's baseball or somethint, like that? No. There would be a group of kids get over here on one side and a group over here and we would run. I don't remember j ust how you do it. Anyway, you'd-- if-- You remember how to play that? Yeah I've heard of it but-- CjD but-- that-- is kinda like hide and seek Hide thE:n they come find you. You have to sneak back to the base before Whenever you played base you see you'd choose up, say, they was 12 kids, you'd 0et six on one side and you get six on the other~· And what to do is to run .from your side and bet onto this side without touching you. That's the Eeneral idea of it. Or if you can, say Wylce McGaha IF! Page 41 ' you go out and get so far and if the kid from this side, over on the opposite side from you can catch you before you Get back and can really run back in without one of your buddie~ touchinL him why, in other words, you're out of the game you see. And they win the Lame by taking them off. You see what I mean? It's a little bit like playin6 baseball I guess or somethinb• Trying to tab a guy out? Yeah. What were some of the games you played at school? Same thing. I mean, we would play that and then we would play what we called "Merry Go Round. 11 I don't know whether you know it or not. No I don't. Well, anyway, that's an old game. Kids get around and hold hands, you know, and one would go around and tap that one and then if you could outrun him back to his place why he would have to go around, see. much kick out of it til you know what it was all about. You wouldn 1 t get a. I o.J- ol? But it's quoi:te fun I mean. And we'd play baseball quite a bit. Played some cards which was a bad thin6 I guess for a kid but a lot of them did thinbSylike that. Play much marbles? Oh, yeah, we would play marbles. I was about to for~et that. Yeah. I've wore out a lot of pair of britches playin& marbles. Yeah. Do-- do you remember ridinL the trees ? Oh yeah. Uh huh. He'd lllay fox and dot_ . That's right. What 1 s that? Is that the same thin::, as 'ridinb the trees and trying to swinL down as far as you can. Wylce McGaha Ill Page 42 Yeah, what you do playing fox and dog, we call it, say I was the fox. I would get started, And I would get in the trees. And I would swing from this tree to the other one, just keep going, If you touched the ground you're out see. You're out of the game. We would run for half a day at a time. On Sunday we would play games like that, see, get in the trees and-- Never come down? If you touched the ground you was out of the game til it was over with. se~ What did the dogs do? They just tried to chase down the fox? Yeah, they was after you, see, in the trees but as long as you could stay ahead of them, why. We played that a lot. Yeah. Fox and dog'? Uh huh. How about that! Now, what was-- what was-- was that the same idea in the-- in the rhododendron-- were you trying to swing through that? Uh huh, Same idea? Uh huh. We used to play what we called !'anteovers." You don't know what that is either? I don't remember the full details of it but, anyway go into a house like this and throwing balls across the house. All the way see, and you don't know where that ball is goin6 to come, whether end or on that end over yonder but you'd better not let it touch ground. I mean you have to catch that ball. ~ roily Wasit-- if you tried it on that ~ouse you'd pave a hard time. That was a pretty [ Ood sized house. Wylce McGaha 111 Page 43 Well you couldn't play on that one out we usually, apple houses, barns and things like that~ you know, we played Talking about apple houses, how long did, say, apples and foods keep in the apple houses? Oh, they would keep. ~-lell you know, they would build them, dig them in the bank in the ground-- you know what most people call a cellar. Of course the cellars mi&ht be under the house but anyway they would build an apple house like that. Dig out: a hole just like a silo in tl\e ground. And then rock it up. Daub it with mud /134/ You put potatoes and apples and anything you wanted to in there. It would keep all winter. JaQ,. Did they do a lot of bottling, ~1 a lot of foods? Yeah, yeah. They canned a lot. Bottling Uh huh Jarring Uh huh Cannin~ Uh huh /137/ When-- when would, I guess it would be ri&ht after the harvest that the women would start canning·? huh. They'd can beans and tomatoes and corn. Did they usually cook them down or did they-- They usually &et out you know in the summer when the berries was in. pick the berries, huckleberries and blackberries and even ~ooseberries. Did you do a lot of hunting,' I mean did you--any way of preserving med.t and game and stuff l ike that '? ~,._. • ~-···-;·:,: • . i Wylce McGaha #1 Page 44 No. You vve h).-- usually killed, you wanted a mess of meat you'd Wit out and killed it ri ght ( Dovb l,nt:1) · then. You didn't try to keep it. You could kill you a mess of meat any time you wanted it. There was no season on anythin ~ I mean. Oh there might have been but we didn't know anything about it. I mean we'd go out any time we wanted to and kill squirrels. Kill a bear any time you wanted to or any time you could in other words. Anythin~ you wanted to hunt for you could. Now we had-- we had a lot of hog meat I mean. Everyoody had hogs you know. And you could keep it, sa.lt it down you know, country cure i~. Did most everybody hunt? Oh yeah. People went huntin ~ just about every day I mean. And then you'd £0 fishint, any time you wanted to too you know. Any time you wanted a mess of fish all you had to do was go catch them. I mean that's all there was to it. And the people didn't hunt, I mean they didn't fish without it's just right. I mean people-- you would know just when to go. Had to be a certain conditions you know to go fishin g. And you go out, just because time to f.,O fishing you didn't go fishin e_ that day I mean it had to be right before you went. And you could catch 25 or 30 fish. Make you a pretty t ood mess. That's l reat. Jonathan Woody, you know Jonathan? huh. He told us about the time that he had an extra tooth in his lower jaw and the dentist in .~aynesville said 11Well you bring me a whole mess of fish and I'll pull that tooth for free." So he and his brother went out and cau0ht two hundred and twenty fish, in one day. You are lucky if you catch five. Hylce McGg.ha lfl Uh huh. Oh yeah. No trouble at all to go out and catch--. Well, people didn't catch a lot of fish. You know I mean. -r he'1 When-yOu knew how many it took to make a meal and if it took ten fish to make a meal, why, they only caught ten fish~ And if it took SO they caught 50. That's what it amounted to. They didn't E.O out and catch 150 just--. And not eat them. I mean they just didn't do that. When they caur,ht what they needed, why they quit fishing right then. Did they make their own-- I guess they did-- they made their own fishing poles and everything1 Oh yeah, Tied their awn flies and all. Uh huh. What would they make their poles out of? Just cut a green pole right out in the woods, just a little slim-- Usually get a sourwood if you could, it's about as good. Or a birch, birch pole. I've fished a lot of times with that. You was talkinb--you was telling me the other day about-- was it your aunt that hunted with a blow gun? No. It was my grandmother. Not this one. My father's mother. This was my mother's mother here. My-- you see my father's mother was, I guess she was close to half Indian. How did that work7 How did that blow bun work'? Well, I don't remember just how, :3ut anyway she could-- the way she You got some of the darts from over here in Cherokee didn't you? would just take a big weed, about this bi& around. And it was And she made some kind of a dart. And put that thint in there, way she fixed it, now I don't know what she did to it. But she 'J.. I iJ f 5 P('r) She could, b low ~e, and it would t;o ri&ht throu;;,h a plank. It had that much power to it. I don't know where it picked up speed, but, boy, it had it. Wylce McGaha 1H Page 46 How lonL would it have been? Oh, I believe-- I'd say the weed she had would be around six foot about 1 on1 six foot. It was a special kind of weed. We call it milkweed. I don't know-- Yeah, I know what you are talking about. About this big around , about as big around as a poke stalk. And it was about six feet lonb? Yeah. Close to six foot lons . Anywhere. from four to six I'd say. Could she kill big game or did she-- Well, she would usually just, you know. She really didn't do too much hunting with it. She just showed us you know how, us kids, how to make them and so on at that time but I've even for gotten. We usually used slingshots you know, a lot. We-- I was just about as accurate with a slingshot as she was with a .32 I mean. Was there a lot of guns in that country at that time1 Has guns hard to get? Well, no. Gun's wasn't hard to get, I mean there was a lot of guns in that country. Because everybody, they depended on guns a lot you know mean for huntin~ and so on, and protect you. Would they-- would they just buy the barrel and make their own stock most of the time. No. They usually--. Now that was back when there was shot guns and was the mast popular ~:; un. And rnos t everybody had a p~s tal. Mast everybody in that country had a pistol. They was--. They'd carry them, I don't know why but they did. Everyoody. Whenever you saw a man cominL would say he had a pistol. Would they wear them on their hip? Wylce McGaha #1 No. No. You never see them. Usually keep them in here. Never see one of them hardly. You could see the p•int of them. Lot of times they would Prt111 ~ o~ ~he carry a pistol in their pocket and you could see the whole~pistol but, you know, in their pockets but you'd never see the gun. \vell, whenever you'd see the gun it was too late. That sounds like it was Big Creek again. Big Creek sounds like it was quite a place. It was at that time. It's not that way any more. I m~an, it's still rou~h, I mean. Has been up until the last-- I don't think there's been any killin ~ over there for ten years or longer. But it's, it's pretty rough country I mean. They are basically pretty 600d people thou0h aren't they? oh: yeah. If you-- if you don't cross them up you are all right, but up that's one thing you don't want to do, cross them people I mean ~ on anything. I' 11 remember that. How about towards Hemphill. That's pretty rou6h country too, isn't it? Well, Hemphill is-- now that's just a little ways down the road here, I keep for Lettint that we're pretty close to Cataloochee really. huh. And Hemphill is just right over here. Hemphill I would say five miles from here. Well how about-- what were some of the other little towns right around that area: Wylce McGaha 4fl Page 48 Ju l.\- ~ as far as you can go, Big Creek is, right on the Tennessee line. Until Cataloochee see just across the mountain from Big Creek and then that's Little Cataloochee and then just across the mountain i~ Big Catalooch and then whenever you get to Big Catalooch it's just across the mountain to Caldwell Fork, and then whenever you get to Caldwell Fork it's just across the mountain to Hemphill. See. That's what it amounts to. How about 5oin[ the other way. What way? We are talking about this area right here, in the park. Uh huh. What about, if you were at the lower end of Cataloochee Valley and you had to go out, what was over in there ? wh a,J. Well. Now you see. r think people used to do. You've heard of Ravensford? That's over in Cherokee. I've heard of it. That's ri bht over here in Cherokee. People off of Big Creek after the logging works left Big Creek, that's Crestmont. They moved to Ravensford \~ell now, people used to walk from Big Creek , across throu5h the mountains here to Ravensford over here in Cherokee and work. They lived in Big Creek and worked in Ravensford? Halked it. Now, they didn't walk back and forth every day. They would come and.work a week. On Friday evening they would 60 home throush the Which was approximately 40· miles .I guess through the mountains. to Big Creek. And stay all, a couple of nibhts. On Sunday they would leave Big Creek walkin& back to Ravensford. Or some to Round Bottom. i~at' s called Round Bottom over here, Cherokee • Wylce McGaha ill Page 49 see. Actually what it is, just whenever you take that end, that's from Big Creek to Round Bottom, it's just that watershed you know. Just after you climb, get above these mountains that we are speaking of and headwaters -1-h~\t'( then you are rit ht in, just one mountain1between Big Creek and Cherokee over here. Going the other way, then you go into Caby, Tennesse~, see and Greenbrier, Tennessee, and in that country And that's where-- That's in the park you see. Greenbrier. Elkmont? Uh huh. Yes. Su 1-&ay, there were-- there were a lot of little communities like cJ 0 f-1 I"(.) Cataloochee that b~d the whole area. Uh huh. Now. Going. You go into Tennessee, Greenbrier, Tennessee, was another place just like Catalooch. And Big Creek you see. The park didn't get all of Big Creek. this same road here The park-- you see the highway goinb from Catalooch, 2. 'i?Lf /211/ And all the property on the riEht hand side of the road after you cross the gap at Mt. Sterlin ~ . One time I can remember whenever the park line was, oh I guess a half a mile beyond the 6ap. Was the park line and from there on, on the right hand side of the road, from there to Big Creek, was not in the park. But on the left hand side of the almost all of it, they was, let's see, they was one, two, three, four, ,... J . i ... families on the left hand side of the roa""'A:i">ait ~ -~:/ bel ani! U tlPe And sa tl a •iseMii itsed 10ile of the zead all ei them Ml!ie eal!u5 l!l:e Bee; ?h&!lkaasc yrs pupl• zcmatn• Uii.!Hg ez!ek Clt&Ii e £S n&! an ~Aiials•: taos& i.i df&olc ia aU 1i 8al!lalnela SnJ c.'+-· S,cJc_ I 0 r CosseHe # 2. o-P 3 Wylce McGaha #1 Side 2 of Cassette #2 of 3 that did not belong to the park. And on the right hand side of the road all of them was out of the park. See. That cause more people remain on Big Creek than there was in Catalooch cause it took in all of Catalooch. Wylce McGaha· fH Page 50 . Was there a general-- \~ell, as you said a while a bo you know they didn't like it. The park coming in. t,~as there any ort;anized effort to stop it? No, Not really. The park. \llienever the government boutht the land they &ive the people just about what they ask, in other words it was like going up to a fellow and buying a cow. Say an ordinary calf, you just had an s h e 'v\Jti~ wo n- rh ordinary cow you would say, ~. $300. That would be the actual worth of it. But whenever I offered you $600 for that cow you ~ould take it, wouldn't you? Now that's just about what it amounted to whenever they bought, when the park boug,ht them out because actually land at that time wasn't worth anything. And you could buy, well, you could buy a bi& farm, good farm, most anywhere in Haywood County or Jefferson County or any of these other counties or Buncombe County or over in Mars Hill an~here you could buy a better farm anywhere in any of these counties than there was on Catalooch for the same money the park give them, see • .f)J f ... ( - So that you-t-otrlcl move d>ut and spread around ? Yeah. 2:> Q. '1 That's what all them people done. They sold OE t~eded. A hundred acre farm, come out and bought four hundred acres. That's what it amounted to. They didn't give too much trouble I mean. Althoug,h they didn't want to leave their homes or anythin g, , but they got, they got their money's worth out of it. You know, you talk about they would take more money for their land. How did they do that when they were dealing with each other? Say if a fellow wanted to buy a cow from another fellow in Cataloochee, buy a horse or somethinL like that. just didn't buy a cow, I mean. Now a horse, horses at one time was worth a lot of money, I mean. Horses-- I'd say mules-- rather, didn't I'd .say a good team of mules, whenever I was just '----'. Wylce McGaha :fH Page Si a small boy would brin5 in $500. Higher than they are now see. They was worth from five to ei&ht hundred dollars for a good team of mules. Two. What was a team? Four·z Two? Two of them. Do you ever remember any cars comin0 in Cataloochee at that time? j: 'J' i(JI .J.hu No. I never saw /~33/ It doesn't seem reasonable~now but, very few automobiles, maybe one automobile in three months would co throu6h that country. Whenever I was a boy. That was in Little Cataloochee? No. Now that was when I was living on Big Creek. An automobile could to, drive that road, say today. I mean, a week or ten days from now you could smell where that automobile had run. That don't sound reasonable but you could actually do it. You could smell where that automobile had been from the droppin ~ s of oil and grease. You could smell for I would say a week where that automobile That's how few cars came throu5h then. And You could over there, most of the people built a fire with kerosene oil. A lot of them did. And maybe the houses would be, well say, it's three miles from this house to the next house, A lot of times you would say And if that fellow built a fire you could smell that kerosene oil miles. And you could smell meat about that far too. A-h-h! .-.. .. Wylce McGaha #1 Page 52 You could smell meat if I did-- Now. You see my mother married Mr. Hannah's brother and I would leave Big Creek going to Catalooch just to visit, see. Well say I would leave home early some mornin&, say on Sunday morninh or. I would leave say six o'clock. Well, I'd go throu£h the gap at Mt. Sterlint. When I got to the gap at Mt. Sterling it was approximately three and a half to four miles to where they lived. And I could smell meat a fryin s . ~~ew: It wasn't hard to tell when lunch was ready when you were out in the field was it? A good way of finding directions. (Laughter) Where did people go when they left Cataloochee '? ~~ere did they go'? Did most of them ~ o to Haywood County? Most of them. :vell most all of these people rit;ht around on Hemphill and around in that part of the country come from Catalooch, yeah. Caldwells and Suttons. This boy that lives ribht here next door to me, his father come off of Catalooch. Who was that? Floyd Sutton. Lives right here. And old man Jim Sutton. \'lhtskP¥ /Twisted?/ fw,s i,...; Jim I was telling you about. That's the one that was called \vaislte;r Jim, is this boy's grandfather. Did he live in Cataloochee? His father lived in Catalooch. See, he wasn't born whenever we moved of Catalooch. And who is, who is the blind fellow that lnes Sutton. Sam Sutton. That's where he lives. We have heard that-- two or three people told us j okingly. I didn' t know quite how to take it--. Wy lee McGaha ffl Page 53 They said it was probably a bood thin~ that the park came along because they were intermarrying so much that, you know, that there wasn't anybody left to marry. So they had to leave. Well. Ahh. Humph. They wasn't as near as much of that I don't think as people speak of it a lot. They was maybe one or two families that did do that. But not, not too much. That was more of a-- more of the Bible on that didn't they a £ainst? Yeah. Intermarrying? Yl'Jiitf be Yeah. Well they just-- Well you take maybe/if it had lasted another 50 years they mi ght have been doin~ that. I don't think they would have because I think that they moved out, you know what I mean, uh. Like they have done from the \-lestern part of this state you know. ~ all them kids when they grow up they move out. I mean they don't stay in there because there's nothinb for them to do much. There's gettinh to be some thin ~ s now but. Same way on Catalooch. It does mean if it had lasted to now them people would have moved out to other jobs and things like that when they come of a0e. I know most all the young boys moved out of there went to New Jersey and some of them to Florida, even back whenever I a kid. I left home when I was 14 years old, went to New Jersey, started working on a farm. 30 cents an hour. /261/ was LOOd wabes too. Yeah. ~· ;,_> -' ~}." .; ·,f· ·,-}. ••:r ' .;,, ,:,._' ,_r.- Wylce ~ Mc Gaha fll ~i ··- ;'!'-~ Page 54 That was good wages at that particular time. The first three dollars I ever had in my life I hoed corn for a quarter a day. Ten hours, not eight. Ten hours for a quarter. -1 h tt4-' J h ay..c) -h) 1m aq 1 y7e Humph. ~guess I'd go baGk-- Of course a quarter was--. \fuat was a quarter like in comparison today '! Well Well, if it was ten hours Ten hours That would be about-- that would be a lot of money. Uh huh. You would buy a dozen eggs for twelve cents? Uh huh. You could buy a pair of overhauls, that's what most of us wore at that time you know, just a plain pair of overhauls. And you could buy a pair of overhauls for 35 cents. Now they charhe you fifteen or twenty dollars. Oh, my! That was something. A pair of shoes would cost you a dollar and a half. Maybe 75 cents. How long would they last? Well, that depends, didn't last too long. They would break in two a lot of times you know, but I mean if you could happen to ~ et a good pair of at that time. They made some good shoes. They made what they uh, a cutter boots you know. And hob nails, a lot of times they'd put in them, to jump on them lots with you know, to hold on to. And loggin~ boots and stuff like that. A good pair of lo ~ bin t boots back would cost you someti r.~ es $20. Had to work a lon ~ time to t et that. Wy lee McGaha /H Page 55 /2.1 1Yl \- w Yeah, but my--~, when them little boots and all was so hi t h that away that was back during, uh, right after World War One. Paid pretty good -!- hen money for work t-hing-s- you know. How do you think World War One affected Cataloochee? Or did it at all? Very little. 3ecause there wasn't too many people that was affected with the war. They was-- 1-lorld War One I don 1 t think there was more than two or three people that I ever knew that was in the war. World War One. And they were volunteers I mean. Well, no, they wasn't drafted or anythinE you know. How did, how did the Depression affect it, Cataloochee? Well, that was roubh• Yeah, that Depression was rou~h, it was real rough. l'n o.>Pl-1~ Of course ~ ~ the farming work you know. Like I said a while ago, about cattle and stuff like that, they had plenty of milk, butter, chickens- and hogs. And they would raise their own corn and stuff like that, I mean as far as eatin ~ it wasn't too bad. But it was hard to, to pay your taxes things like that. There wasn't much money. I would say they was a of families, a lot of families on Big Creek and Catalooch that never received $25 in a year's time. A sight. Twenty-five dollars in a year's time would have been bi:; money. And my uncle, the one we was talkinf:, about a go, the one you met, him and his brother were the first--. They the first load of acid wood that ever went into this Champion Fibre over here. They dug the stumps up, they didn't cut the--. You see 1:-h e n.-o tree down, let the tree lay aowft~and they dug the stumps up. was tellin,s me about di15gin6 the chestnut stumps, it was chestnut. And chestnut stumps up and bot the roots. And sent a boxcar load to Champion. ·:. "C:..~ ' ., ·-···t,.!.-- .';, •,.._; ._.. >·:. {;\!_"If~~ ·Page 756 When was the bliLht ? \Vhen was the chestnut blight? '29 or that was the Depression? Well, that was when it was toin[, on, when the fullness was ritht along in there. I can remember, ah, as far back as I can remember chestnut trees was a blight. Cutting it outJ after World War One, with the ships came in I think, started /288/ because Or did the Cdou b l 1 VI C( J I can remember After that Picking up a lot of chestnuts, I mean when chestnuts fall off the trees you could just rake them, rake them up. They would fall off and lod6e up against a tree or something you know, around the roots of the tree. I remember /290/ about tremendous chestnut tree, I forget how sa .c) big he said it was, it took about two or three, maybe four, ox he said to pull it out of there. He said it was a big chestnut. I can remember chestnut trees six and seven foot through them, a of them over there like that. That's a big tree. Yeah, that's a bit tree. Did they make a lot of log cabins over in Bi& Creek and Cataloochee7 to. I can remember a lot of the log, houses along Big Creek But now you don't find many much. I mean they done away with I can remember when they was a lot of loc, houses on Big Creek. Wylce McGaha fll Page 5~ Did they use the chestnut in the log houses? Yeah. That's mostly poplar wood to build them with? Best wood? Poplar. What were the, what were the dating customs like over there. How did you ask your favorite girl out? What was that like. (Laughing) T,o/ell ,. the first girl I ever went with-- I-- Vi Sutton was her name. I lived on Little Catalooch and she lived on Big Catalooch, and then I had to walk all the way to Catalooch to see, I mean from Little Catalooch to Big Catalooch and when you went dating you went out early in the morning and stayed til late in the night you know, I mean. you know maybe 10 o'clock. Before you would get to start back home and then you'd see her til next week or maybe two weeks. And that was about all they to that, I mean as far as dating, I guess dating then was just about like it is now, other than it was walking all the time. I mean you didn't a girl up in an automobile, you go see her, and go for a walk, I mean where you go for a ride we went for a walk. Did they ever bo on, an extended trip on /303/ or camping or-­No. Girls would never be with a boy in that way at all. No. done your courting you done your courting, most of it, the parents taere in your presence. And of course they would let out, walk maybe down the road or something like that. I mean you you didn't LO on any camping trips or anythin6 like that. You say you went over to the Hall place ,to go swimming? Wylce McGaha 1Fl Page 58 How did you learn how to swim? Ah, the first time I ever swim I was with a bunch of boys, I guess I was about six years old. And I got up on this rock and jumped in and I just went to swimming, that's all there was to it. There wasn't nothing to {t. Swim or sink. Yes. And I guess I swam the first time I ever got in the water really. It just come natural I guess. And seeing everybody else swimming I reckon I just knowed how to do it when I jumped in the water I guess. I'd swim the first time I ever jumped in. How about that! Was it jaybird swimming Well, yeah. 1-/e would mostly, just a long, long swim you know, like that. Overhand swimming. They was some good swimmers because they had done a lot of it you know. That was one of the sports, was swimming. Now, where did you swim mostly? Oh, we would swim in Big Catalooch, or in that lake I was telling you about. On Big Creek we swim ri 6ht in the creek. Were there a lot of deep pools? Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of them hold water at that time was 15 foot You didn't have any problem in swimmint, . You had plenty of water. it's down. Big Cataloochee, Cataloochee Creek. huh. Yeah. In fact I've only seen a bout two or three pools. · ~.: .. ~,~ <' Wylce McGaha'' #1 Page 59 Yeah, but they's a lot. Of course you had to hunt you a good swimming hole, you know what I mean. We didn't just go in swimmint anywhere. You would find a good hole of water where there wasn't many rock or anythin5. Big Creek there's lots of 600d holes to swim in. All people go in swimming. They usually done that, take their baths, I mean that was the way you took a bath in the summertime. Just go to the creek and 'ZO in swimming. They didn't have any hot water. You didn't do it in the winter did you? . No, not really. A lot of times, of course people didn't pay too much attention to cold water, I mean they was used to it. VI/feu<._ Most of the time you didn't -have any clothes on when you went swimming anyways did you? No. Huh uh. No, we'd, I mean it was just a bunch of boys. Where would the girls go? When they went swimming? would usually wear a dress or somethins like that. v Put on a pair of overhauls, something like that to ~o in swimming. They had their particular time. .Then knew when to <;o and where to go. They never got it confused. they, you never, I mean they always wore something when they went Most all the ~irls did swim. swimminL was a big sport? Are you about ready? Do you want to go on back? Whenever you ~et through. t fht/11;_ J im 1':1 Not eGing ~ bore you to tears? no. Wylce McGaha ill Page 60 Were they really superstitious about planting according to the signs and stuff like that? Yeah, yeah. They usually stayed pretty close, most people did, in planting their ~ardens and stuff like that they'd plant them you know by signs. Moon and stuff-- Did they use the Farmers Almanac or did they just know the signs because they were passed down. Well, they usually knew the sisns. I mean most everybody knew them. They wanted to plant, say for instance they was goint to plant potatoes they'd plant them on a dark night in March. That was definitely the time to plant -+-fJaJ. Iva J 1 .!.-. potatoes and no other time. I mean they did tnat. Dark nights in March. Yeah. When would you plant corn'? always plant corn, they-- This was the way they do it. You would plant corn on the dark nights and you would either be about this hi gh off the Lround and han0 down. You plant it in the liGht of the moon your stalk would grow way tall and wouldn't be stick ing straight up, you wouldn't have nothin ~ but little nubbins you see. That's really happened, I mean somethinL to it I mean. Even the farmers here. This guy that dairy farm down here, he won't plant his corn on the light of the How about that! there's really somethint, to it. Of course with all the ferLlize and f<n o!Vl tJq,., of the ~dern farmin0 in thls day and time you could make a pretty Lood \ ;. ~. ~~·' wy .Lee MCuana iH _Page 61 crop if you planted it any time. But I mean back then they was really somethinL to plantinL it at the riLht time. I know, I don't know what time it was or anythin ~ about it. I never paid too much attention to the signs myself but I lived back there over on the hi6hway. I was plantin ~ my garden. I was plantin ~ beans. This old gentleman he hollered at me and asked me what I \las doing. I told him I was plan tint, beans. He said "OK. Go ahead and plant them and cover them up ~ood and 1:,0 back out there tomorrow or the next day and they will all be on top of the t;round." And I told my wife, I said " Now let's notice, see if there's anythint;, to that." And sure nuf, I went back out there and those beans was on top of the ground. Why they were I don't know. But they were. Wrong time wasn't it. Yeah. They come up. I mean you can-- you can plant beans at a certain time and they will actually come to the top of the ground. There's an apple tree on 3i~ Creek. That wqcall it a~. You never see any in this country, that's the only place I ever saw them. It would ~row about so bi8, about this b i~. But they will go down in the ground in the winter They will drop off the tree and they will actually LO down in the I tuess they act as a kind of fertilizer for the tree a gain? huh. They wou::kl rot? But you could 00 oack in the sprint; of the year, or t;o when snow Lround, you could-- I've kicked them out of the snow this deep, them out and eat them. The~~n, they'd be bood. How about that! Page 62 Uh huh. A way of protecti n& theirselves I reckon. They go riEht doWn in the 0round. Of course the t round would be sclt you know. Black, black ground. They just ~ o ri ~ht down in it. Were they ever superstitious about-- was there any way to keep the animals away and thi nLs like that? No. Animals never bothered us. Nothing only possums or polecats or somethinG like that ~ et in your chicken house. A lot of times a what we call a screech owl Let in the chicken house you know. How about wolves '? No wolves. Any panthers in that, durin;;; that time? No. I've heard of the panther but not in my time. Oh, yeah. I've heard several old people talk, about the-- tell old thost story I guess you'd call it, about-- Was that a favorite pasttime? Oh yeah. Yeah. M;y grandmother, right then she used to scare us to death of you know, every ni::;ht, e v e r y ni tht she would tell us a bit; of some kind you know. Why they did that I don't know, I mean to you scared to death all the time. Do you remember any of them? yeah. I remember she would tell about the hants you know. And all of other thin0s, wolves and thin 6s like that she'd tell you about. Did she kinda make them up as she would · go along? I guess you would say that she-- they'd been passed down throuLh the ions really. I mean she would tell them over and over and over and story every time you know. .. ,,.~· >r;.r····-~. .,. ,.....- ·-·~"l'~·:>Vr:r .. - '?', . t . · ~ ._(- .,. ' Wylce McGaha' ill But it did the job. It would scare you. It done the job .. Do you remember any of the specific stories? Do you remember any at all? No, not really. I remember-- Yeah, I can remember some of her stories. o f'n1 c rr, b c rc L) h e S h ( They'd tell about--. I kne"' my --g t'-an:Qmot~, she used to tell about this old place where they lived. And they would be-- in other words her brother would be off on a loggin& job or somethins like thatyou know and come in and he'd always come home on Friday nisht. And he'd always brinb a load of wood. tfuen he'd come in he would bring a load of wood. That's the only way they had of heatinL and cookin~ you know. And so they said this one particular time they heard him come up in the : yard you know, throw his load of wood down and he'd always [ O to the branch to wash his han~ before he come on in the house. So my hrandrnother she went ahead and put the supper on the table and everything for him to come and eat and he never did come. But yet they heard him thrmv the wood down and all the things that was supposed to have took place but yet that was just a noise that they heard. They claim he never did come. Leaves you wonderin& you know really did happen whether they heard him or what you know. I mean that's sorta the way the stories would 60 like that, see. I guess way oack up here in these hills that would scare a kid. I remember one t .. me my brother. He would scare a family of people. Him and my first cousins. They took twine strins s and nailed 'em to a board It's got a little vibration in ·it and slip up and tie this piece of rosin. And you could back off, say two or ~~ylce McG~ha Ill Page 64 · three hundred yards, out of shootint distance of a gun you know, and you can make all kinds of noise on that thing. Anythint.,, make any kind of a racket you want to you know and by it being attached to this plank on the house you can't locate the sound of it, can't tell where it's at. See, he had these people moving out. (Pause) People used to pull a lot of tricks like that. I mean for pasttime, jokes on people. I knew one time people, young boys over there, my uncle had a wa6on. They took it all apart, disassembled the wagon and took it on top of the barn •. Set it on top of the barn you know and put it back tot ether. We'd do things like that you know. So they were pretty bad, pretty good humor I guess. Yeah. That's good. That is bood. He had to call, call for help you know ~ get it off the top of the barn, I can remember lo¢ raising they called it, building houses and barns things. Everybody pitched in to I was thinking the other day. I don't Luess you ever heard of what call a death bell. Now that's something that I never heard but one in my life. An old 6entleman died in the community. And he was about 80, 85 years old. And they ranL this bell one time for every year he was. And boy, that ~ ives you a funny feelinG to hear that you in a community like that where you never hear no noise. You wouldn't n attention to somethin0 like thatnow because you hear all kinds of rackets You hear sornethins like that you know · where there's no racket and it ally sounds funny to hear a church bell rin:_ 8S times. Over a period r _\.___; Wylce McGaha #l of about 35 or 40 minutes. Wait about-- close to a minute between each ring you see. Just hit one time, every time for year old he was. And I went to a candy pulling one time. END of Side 2 of Cassette #2 of 3 2 .$1 is ear•r pulloiLR~ iiU tL'I1t. You never experienced I've been to corn shuckin one time in my life. Candy pullint one time. So what's the candy pull in ~) ) That's where they make molasses, sut:,ar cane molasses. At the end of the process, why, they make candy. Now that was a-- that was a courtship that the young boys and girls would have. They would have what is called a candy pullin ~ . And you see you take-- boil these molasses and make candy. And the boys would ::_,et on one end and the ;:irls on the other and they would pull that candy til it would get-- I mean the more you pull it-- well I reckon it goes throu~h a process of some kind. The more you pull it the better it is. How about, how did they fi t ht fires ? You kn ·~W rin ::,inb the bell reminded me of that. Did-- if a place cau&ht fire-­Wrq od v all~ They didn't fi ght much fire because they usually wanted it to burn woods, I mean that was the-- Oh. I've heard that was one way of thinninL out the woods floor? Yeah. You see usually back whenever I was a boy they would pay no attention to a fire. Now when the park come along you know naturally they didn't want the f i res out. But before that they would set the woods Let the leaves fall in the fall of the year and set them on fire the only thint that would burn was just get them leaves. Wouldn't hurt timber ot anythin::_. /374/ That done away with the snakes and the spiders and the bu~ s, and all that kind of stuff you see. Hylce McGaha fH P4ge 66 And it didn't hurt the timber? No. How about a house, when a house sot on fire, barn or something, did they, did they get it out or did it usually burn up. It usually burned up. 3ecause. Break /375/ Some of the respected animals say, would it be a bear? Well, you mean whether people would be afraid of it or not? No, people wasn't afraid of the bear, I mean really. They knew that a bear wouldn't bother you, wildlife. 'leVe I:L Nobody every heard of a bear hurting you. The only dan&er there is in a bear is these tame bears alont, these hi t_hways around these camp ~ rounds and thin[ s. People knew a bear would never hurt. You'd hardly ever see a bear. You know the only way you'd ever see a bear is just happen up on. Say you are climbing one side of the mountain and come up here and lo•)k down on the other side, see the bear you know, but you don't see him but just a second. It's &one. Because he can smell further than you can see really. And the only danger there is in bears is in parks right in these camp&rounds. I would say they was dangerous because they'd hurt you. What about wild pigs ? wild pigs is dangerous. Did they ever have a lot of them in Cataloochee? in my time wild ho:_s was just about [ One. They was a few. I shot I didn't kill it. Just scared it. I was walking alonL the top of the you know. And I was riLht on him before he knew I was there and know it was there until it j umped up. And I had a gun. And when the ho ~ jumped up it made all this noise you know. And I shot I even realized ~hat I was doin~. I didn't kill it but I think I shot it + d 1-:} o' 1 e c) through its eyes.. And it scared me, I didn't know-- Did they have tusks? Oh, yeah. He was a bi& one. I guess it wei ghed 300. T m E'Q il Were they bad to char ~e you /'JS4/ \11,(3!./ld !-h ftj Jus.\.- Ct./+t;.c.K-.1 °U? Yeah. Yeah. They would attack you. I guess a ho6 was one of the most dangerous ani mals we ever had in this part of the country, I mean as far as fi ghting. And when you f et a-- t et in a hog fi L,ht, that's one thin ~ you want to do, is stay out of the way. I guess hogs can kill more do::_s than q_ hoi cJ anythinh because a doz will take rieht over one and all he does is j ust really work him over the tusks. How about snakes? What did you all do for snake bite ·? Snakebite? Well~ there was very few people that I ever knew of getting snakebit although they was plenty of snakes on Cataloochee and Big Creek you know. I don't think I ever knew of but about one person getting snakebit. My first cousin got bit ri ght in the bottom of the foot. Started to a hen's nest one morninb before breakfast, to ket an egg for breakfast you know, and a copperhead bit her rit ht in the bottom of the foot. As she was steppin ~ . She was barefooted. And that's the only person I ever knew of s ettinb snakebit. She lived to tell about it didn't she? Yeah. She got better. Was she pretty sick for a while? A' ~. · ~ Wy lee McGaha /11 Page Yeah. Yeah. It made her awful sick. But you know they had their I don't know just what they did do. The first thing they done was grab a black chicken you know, and jerk a wing off and stick her foot in it and so on but I don't know-- there's so many different thin5s they done for them I don't know but they lived, they lived, I mean. Split it open you know and let the blood all come out and put turpentine and all such stuff as that. We are going to be living in Big Cataloochee this .summer. Are you! ~J-'s q_ At the old ran.ser station down there, bunkhouse. now- Oh yeah. And we're goinL to be living END NOTE: This interview is continued on tape noted as: "Ree 1 {f2 of McGaha interview. Also interview w/ Blind Sam Sutton - 92 years old - home in Maggie Valley. Sam Easterby and George Richardson interviewin& 3-3/4 ips. Mono. 4/18/73"

This 93-page manuscript is titled “Interview with Wylce McGaha.” The 1973 interview is recalls life in Cataloochee. The history was collected as part of the Cataloochee History Project that collected photographs, stories, and oral histories about families who lived in the Cataloochee Valley. Today’s Cataloochee Valley is within the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. While, in general, the Great Smoky Mountains region was sparsely populated, the Cataloochee Valley remained an exception. By 1900, the population of Cataloochee had grown to 1,000 residents living in hundreds of log and frame homes.

• Creator
  • Easterby, Sam
  • Sanderson, Perry
• Contributor
  • McGaha, Wylce
• Format
  • Transcripts
  • Interviews
• Type
  • Text
• Date
  • Date original: 1973-04-12
  • Date digitized: 2015-09-22
• Extent
  • Dimension: 11' x 8.5"
  • Pages: 93 pages
• Subject - Topic
  • Agriculture
  • Cataloochee (N.C.)
  • Cataloochee (N.C.) -- Social life and customs
  • Families
  • Farm life
  • Great Smoky Mountains National Park (N.C. and Tenn.)
  • Mountain people -- North Carolina -- Haywood County
  • Schools -- North Carolina -- Cataloochee
• Location
  • Haywood County (N.C.)
  • North Carolina, Western
• Source institution
  • Western Carolina University
• Source Collection
  • Cataloochee History Project
• Identifier
  • GSMNP_Cata-Easterby_McGaha_1973_04
• Repository
  • Great Smoky Mountains National Park