• Format
  • Transcripts
  • Interviews
• Type
  • Text
• Extent
  • Duration: 18 pages
• Source institution
  • Western Carolina University
• Identifier
  • HL_MPML_Miller_Massie_2016-06-09_transcript

Massie 1 Subject: Tom Massie Interviewer: Helen Miller Date: 06/09/2016 Location: Smoky Mountain High School Helen Miller: Mr. Massie, were you born and raised here, in Jackson County? Tom Massie: I was. HM: Has your family been here for a long time? For generations? TM: My mother was born in Jackson County. My father was born in Haywood County. The families have been in Macon or Haywood County before they even formed Jackson County. HM: Oh wow. TM: Jackson County was formed out of Macon and Haywood Counties. So, my father’s family is from Haywood, and Haywood County used to come all the way down to the Tuckasegee River, and Macon County used to come all the way down to the Tuckasegee River. When they made the county in what, 1857, or whenever it was, they just went to the two gaps, Cullowhee Gap, Balsam Gap, all the way to the South Carolina line and said, “This is going to be a new county.” HM: How has your family, so, your family has lived in this area for a while? TM: Yes. HM: Can you describe some of the history of your family in the community? TM: Well, on my maternal grandparents, my grandfather was a Cabe, and my grandmother’s maiden was Sutton. Obviously, those are well known names within Jackson County, Cabe and Suttons, and their descendants still live here. Been here for generations. My grandmother’s father, which would be my great-great-grandfather, was a Civil War veteran out of Jackson County. My paternal great-great-grandfather was a Civil War veteran out of Haywood County. HM: Do you know which side they were involved in, in the war? TM: Oh, they were both Southern. Then, my dad moved to Jackson County in 1933, at the start of the Great Depression, or the heart of the Great Depression, and started a furniture store in Sylva, and was a prominent member of the community, the business community for years, and years. So, yea, he’s been involved in lots of things. The hospital, I think he actually built a wing of the hospital when it was above the courthouse years and years ago. My mother was a nurse. That’s how she knew Rita Shelton, they were both nurses. So, yea, been here a long time. Massie 2 HM: When they were assigning people to interview, they said you guys owned land somewhere in the area? Your family did? TM: Yea, I have about sixty acres that had been in my mother’s side of the family that I bought from an uncle, over on Mack Town down toward Dillsboro by the rock quarry there. Then, I have three acres up here above the high school, and then I have a small piece of property in Southern Jackson County down around Glenville Lake. HM: Okay. Was your family… You were involved in politics as a local county commissioner, right? TM: That’s correct. HM: Okay. And was your family, did your family have any involvement in governing and politics as well? TM: My father was on the Wildlife Resources Commission for about eighteen years. HM: I think I found an article about that online. TM: That’s probably right. He was first appointed, I guess by Governor Hodges back in the 50s when they first started the Wildlife Resources Commission, and served for, as I say, about eighteen years. He went off the commission in, I believe it was 1972, when Dan Robertson was appointed. That was all he was involved. He was involved in the Democratic Party, but he never held elected office. HM: So, about growing up in Jackson County. What are some of your earliest memories? Just being here, in the community? TM: Well, I actually attended elementary school in Cullowhee. And we lived on Buzzard Roost above what is now Hunter Library, on the hill there, and looked down on the football stadium. Hunter Library now sits where the old Western Carolina football stadium used to be. So, I started elementary school in the McKee building on campus as they were building Camp Lab Elementary School. The old Camp Lab Elementary School. So, the first two years I went to school in the McKee building itself, and then we started the new school at Camp Lab. And, I went all the way through elementary school there, came to high school here. As I said earlier, I walked down the hill, because we lived right above the high school. So, I walked to school every day for four years. It was a pleasant experience. HM: Good. Okay. So, I saw for your education you went to Chapel Hill? TM: I did. HM: And then, the University of Georgia? Massie 3 TM: I did. HM: What motivated you to go there and to get out of Jackson County? TM: Well, I knew I was going to go to college, and I didn’t want to go to school at Western because it was so close to home. I wanted to get out and be exposed something a little bit different. I was lucky enough to be… Actually, I went to junior college first. I went to Brevard for two years, and then was accepted at Chapel Hill, and finished up at Chapel Hill in another two years. Came out of school at the start of another recession in 1979. There weren’t any jobs. I went to school at Western and took courses for a couple of semesters, and then transferred to the University of Georgia. I got a master’s degree at the University of Georgia. Went to Georgia simply because it was a whole lot closer than going back to Chapel Hill, or going to Raleigh, or in state. It was just an easy transfer for me down there. It was two hours’ drive. HM: What did you study down there? TM: Applied economics, with a minor in finance. HM: Okay. So, did you know you wanted to be involved in governing and politics from a young age, or did that sort of happen later down the road? TM: It just sort of happened. I mean, I knew I wanted to be involved in public service of some kind. So, I went ahead and did that. Figured it be a good start, public finance, and the economics part, and it just fell into place. And when I came back, I got a job working for the Southwestern Planning Commission and basically, was working with local governments my entire career. HM: From the get go. TM: Yep. HM: So, you knew you were going to come back to Sylva. TM: Yes. HM: You knew you were going to return to those family ties. TM: Without a doubt, yes. HM: Yes, sir. Did you, so, you came right back and started working here in the community? TM: I did. Massie 4 HM: What was it like returning to Jackson County after having gone and studied in a different… Or returning to this area, I guess? TM: It was comfortable to me. I prefer the rural lifestyle. I like a small town, I like rural areas. I don’t care much for big cities, and traffic, and all that rigmarole. My philosophy always was, why would you go somewhere else to live your entire career and work just to try to move back to Jackson County? Which we see so many people do in this day and age. So many people move away from here, go somewhere else, and then retire back to Jackson County. I figured I kind of wanted to be here all along. My pastimes were the outdoors, primarily. Camping, hiking, fishing, and I just wanted to come back to Jackson County. We had all those things right here. There wasn’t no reason for me to live in Raleigh or Atlanta, or something like that, and try to run up here on the weekends. HM: You knew were already home. TM: Yea. I mean, I knew I was going to make less money staying in Jackson County than I would somewhere else, but I figured that… HM: You weren’t in it for the money. TM: No, I mean, you know, you only have one life to live, and you can either be happy or not happy. And I prefer to happy and poor as to rich and not happy. HM: Yes, sir. TM: I mean, you know, I really, I did look in Atlanta after I got out of school, but I guess what really was a telling factor for me was I had a job interview at one of the banks in Atlanta, and I think I stayed six miles away from the interview. I could see the building I was going to interview in, and it took an hour and a half to get there by car when I started driving, just because of the traffic. And I said, “Nah, this is not what I want.” HM: Maybe not. TM: I don’t want an hour and a half commute every day just to go six miles. HM: No, sir. Did you notice any really big changes when you came back to the county? TM: No, not really. I mean the county population was still pretty much the same as it had been when I left. It was really before the university had started expanding a lot. It was before we started seeing a huge influx of retirees coming into the county and a lot of new families and things. So, no, it was pretty much just as I remembered. HM: So, it was comfortable. Massie 5 TM: Oh yea. HM: Yes, sir. How had you changed, and how did that impact your view of the community? TM: Well, I probably had a bit more progressive views than some, because I had seen how other people were doing things. I had become a little bit more of a proponent probably, of some land use planning, some zoning issues. I had seen how things had grown up helter skelter in other places and were starting to happen around here. And so, I probably came back with my eyes a little wider open than before because of having been exposed to some things. HM: A little bit more aware. TM: Yea, without a doubt. HM: Yes, sir. So, how did your career take you toward politics? TM: Well, as I say, I was involved with local government all along. First, with the Southwestern Planning Commission, and I worked for a while at the Center for Improving Mountain Living at Western Carolina. And got exposed to a lot of the leaders in the region themselves. People like Chancellor Robinson up there, and later Chancellor Coulter. Hugh Morton, Dick Whinnett at the Asheville Citizen Times, people of that ilk. Tom Maloney, then a legislator, or an assistant to Roy Taylor, the congressman. Congressman Taylor himself was on that board. Dot Mason out at Cherokee County, just throughout the entire region, I mean, all of Western North Carolina. And I saw the impact those people had, and the influence on how they wanted to see the area develop. To create jobs in Western North Carolina so more of us could stay here and have a reason to be here. What we needed to do to protect our environment. Those kind of things. And so I got interested, and then, as people do, I kept looking for other opportunities that offered more money. And I was fortunate enough to have Wayne Hooper, Chairman of the County Commissioners at that time, hire me to come in as the county planner and economic developer for the county, and responsibilities grew from that. Throughout that entire continuum, I was seeing, I was working with people that were having an impact on their fellow man’s lives in their community, and trying to make their communities better in a myriad of ways. So, you know, it was just kind of a natural thing. I really never had any aspirations for elected office, even though I was on the Soil and Water Board for a number of years, and that was simply because I got appointed. Somebody had a vacancy and they came to the commissioner, and the commissioner said, “Well, Tom’s got nothing better to do. We’ll just appoint him to that board.” Then, I had to run for that for, I guess I had to run five times so, I was elected about twenty years on the Soil and Water Board. You know, working with farmers, and federal programs, and state programs, and… I just… And that’s where I met William Shelton. He and I got to be friends, and we enjoyed that kind of stuff. And then, I left that job in the 90s and went to work for the state government, and even more exposed to politicians at a different level, and working with them, and going to the General Assembly, and doing those kind of things. So, it was just kind of a natural progression when I got to the point that I saw Massie 6 some things that I was not particularly pleased with in Jackson County, or that I thought needed to be addressed. HM: Like what? TM: Well, you know, in the 2000s, the turn of the century, the first ten years, we saw huge expansion of growth in Jackson County. I mean, just a lot of growth. HM: I moved there during that time. TM: Well, and lots of people coming in and that was fine, but basically, we didn’t have any subdivision regulations, nobody was paying any attention to the environment and what we need to do to protect it and those kind of things. So, I said, “Well, you know, this is as good a time as any to run for office, and I am interested in doing it.” And I knew some people who had run previously, and obviously, I knew something about some of the issues. HM: Yes, sir. TM: And maybe I didn’t have the right ideas, but I kind of knew what I wanted to do, and basically told people and was fortunate enough to be elected once. HM: So, what… Did you talk about all these issues in your platform? TM: Oh, I did. I was very vocal about what I intended to do, and my attitude was very simple. I mean, “This is what I’m going to do, and you can either elect me or not elect me. I don’t care, but these are issues that needed to be talk about during the campaign.” And I was probably the most surprised person in Jackson County when I got elected, because I think there five people in the primary that I was in, and I was probably much more pro-regulations, pro-environment than the other people that were running. And quite frankly, I really didn’t think that I would get elected. I told several people that I just wanted to talk about the issues, and make sure that somebody was there to do something. So, I was kind of surprised. HM: What party did you run with? TM: Oh, I’m a Democrat. HM: Okay. Did that political affiliation affect your run in any way? TM: No. I mean, I believe in the principles of the Democratic Party. I mean, the Democratic Party has primarily been a progressive party through the years. It has morphed since I first started out. Southern Democrats were pretty conservative, and the party has become much more liberal on the national stages than it was in the past. But I still believe in what they did. I think that FDR was one of the best presidents that we’ve ever had in this country. And you know, I’m for making sure that there’s a safety social net for people who have misfortunates. Massie 7 I’m for health care, I’m for minimum wages out there. I’m for making sure that the standard of living in this country continues to rise, and we have good things, and I still believe in those things. I don’t think the taxes are too high. I hear people complain all the time about the taxes in Jackson County. First one thing and another. And quite frankly, we still have one of the lowest tax rates in the state, and ask anybody that’s moving here from Florida whether taxes are too high or not, because they’re not. They pay a whole lot more in Florida, because I have a sister who lives down there and I know how their taxes are down there. So, anyway… HM: I agree. I agree completely with what you’re saying. Do you feel your time in office allowed you to really address the issues you saw in the county? TM: Yes. I actually was not disappointed at all when I was not reelected because the issues that I had wanted to primarily address we had addressed. I was fortunate enough to have two other commissioners vote for me most of the time, and in some cases had unanimous votes on the commission on the issues I was particularly interested in. No, I was not disappointed. I was actually concerned that I really did not have specific issues that I wanted to… large, specific issues that I wanted to address in the second term. So, I was not upset when I was defeated. HM: Yes, sir. You felt as though your time had been served. TM: Oh yea. HM: So, you feel like you got to accomplish a lot? TM: Oh yea. I mean, we did what we wanted to do. We passed subdivision regulations, we put in steep slope regulations, we built a new library and renovated the court house. It was falling down, the old court house up there. I mean, we made improvements in the school systems, we put the money necessary for infrastructure into place through water and sewer improvements through Tuckasegee Water and Sewer, so that we could have economic growth going forward. So, yea, I think we accomplished most of the goals that we set out to do. Established the early college, built them a new building out there. So, yea. HM: You got a lot done. TM: We did get a lot done. HM: Yes, sir. Now that some time has passed, do you feel like there are any of those same sort of issues or controversies, or like, issues mirroring the ones you ran on, today in the community? TM: Well yea. There’s always issues out there. And they’ve got to be addressed. One of the problems that I did not like sitting in the commissioner’s seat were the quandaries that you have out there that there’s no solution. I mean, no matter what you do, it’s probably not going to be the best solution out there. It’s not going to be the optimal, it’s going to be the second-Massie 8 best solution. And some of them have no solution whatsoever. I mean, you just have to wrestle with it, try to come up with something, and perhaps you can’t do anything about any of that. And I did not particularly like to sit around and hassle every year with the budget, and figure out whether the fire department should get more money or less money, or should Reach get money or not get money. You know, all those kinds of things. It just got to be drudgery. I was… We had addressed the big issues I wanted to address. Somebody else can take with the day-to-day stuff. HM: You were ready to move on? TM: Yes, I was. HM: Yes, sir. What are some of the contributions you’re most proud of? Like the library project, and renovating the courthouse or the early college. TM: Well, I’m very pleased with the way the renovation of the courthouse and library complex turned out. It turned out very, very well, I think. I mean, the library blends in very well with the old courthouse. It doesn’t detract from the courthouse itself. It’s something that generations will use. One of the oddities that I have often thought about is, as I mentioned earlier, my dad actually added a wing on the old Sylva hospital in the 50s, and it was on Courthouse Hill above the courthouse, is where the old hospital used to be, before they built, you know, where the hospital, Harris is now. And so, he added a wing, and they recognized him for it, and I think there’s a plaque out in the current hospital that recognizes the Massie Wing out there. But the irony is that he had added a wing to the hospital within two hundred yards of where I helped us rebuild the courthouse and build a brand new library. HM: That’s pretty funny. TM: It’s pretty unusual. HM: It’s interesting how life works out like that. TM: It really is. It’s pretty interesting. HM: You’re leaving your mark on the county. TM: Well, I’ve been involved in a lot of projects. I mean, before I was county commissioner. I mean, I established, when I worked for Wayne Hooper, he and I established the sewer system in Cashiers so Cashiers could grow. There was no, it was all septic systems. We put in the first sewer system up there and it’s grown through the years. So, we established that. We expanded the sewer system here. I was involved in the formation of Tuckasegee Water and Sewer, when the county had their own water and sewer system, and Dillsboro had their own, and Sylva had their own, and on and on. And we worked together to put those together. I was somewhat involved with the formation and creation of Pinnacle Park, the old Sylva water shed that’s there Massie 9 now so, that’s preserved for future generations in Jackson County as a recreational area. Just lots of things like that. It’s been fun. HM: Sounds like it. Wow. Okay. What sort of challenges did you face in your time as county commissioner? Did you face any in office while you were… TM: Oh yeah, there’s always challenges. There’s, you know, any time that change occurs, people are uncomfortable with change. So, we had the subdivision ordinance, the steep slope ordinance, which were very controversial. We had public hearings, we had lots of people that showed up that were unhappy with it. Of course, one of the biggest challenges during our time we had no control over whatsoever, and that was a recession. You’re right in the middle of a recession, the state government starts cutting back on their funding, county has to make up the loss of funds there. And people like to blame people, someone for their misfortune. So, county commissioners got blamed that the ordinances had caused the whole county to go into a recession and blah, blah, blah. And I’m sure it had some impact on the county, but the economy in the nation suffered as a whole, and that was really a result of the national economy more than anything else. But yea, you always have challenges. And then, you have, as I say, the annual challenges of your budget. How much are you going to give this organization, that organization? How much goes to the schools? Everybody always want more than there is in the way of money, and so you have to make the hard choices as to who’s going to be the winners and who’s going to be the losers. Usually, nobody’s happy. HM: Fair enough. The joy of politics. Were than any ones that proved extremely challenging, or hard to face, difficult to face? TM: Well, I mean, the public hearing that we had on the steep slope ordinance was probably one of the most challenging things that we had. You know, any time you have twelve-hundred people show up to a public hearing, and the vast majority are opposed to it, that’s pretty significant challenge. I think the sheriff got a little excited, and offered escorts to the commissioners, and give them all rides in the police van out there, and escort them in and all that stuff, which I did not participate in. I went on my own. I didn’t see any reason to do that. That was very challenging all the way around. But the other commissioners were very steadfast. They saw the need for it also, and I think most of those ordinances passed with at least a four-to-one vote. But we had multiple public hearings during that time frame. HM: And were they all usually that big and that size? TM: They weren’t as large as that one was. That one in particular we had to hold in the auditorium at Southwestern Community College. The other ones though, we held in the courtrooms usually, and there would be somewhere between fifty and one hundred people at most of those, and in a county that’s only got 40,000 people in it that’s pretty good attendance. HM: That’s impressive. Massie 10 TM: And you know, it was… There were a lot of tradesmen involved with that, there were a lot of realtors involved with that. They saw it as a threat to their businesses and the way they did business. I think it has proven over time that it has not negatively impacted their business as much as the recession did. And I think it has put in place some standards that will ultimately protect Jackson County in the long run, and continue to ensure that we have the growth that we need. That people will continue to move here, that we protect our environment at the same time that jobs are created. The way it was going, we were destroying the goose that laid the golden egg. Only time will tell, but thus far, it has not, through two boards of commissioners, they have not repealed those laws to this point in time. HM: That probably says something about how well they’re working. TM: Well, I think it indicates it’s not nearly the problem that some people feared it was going to be, and it was not negatively impacting everything like they thought it would. I mean, economics tells you that the market will determine whether or not things are good or bad, and quite frankly, we’re continuing to see sales, we’re continuing to see people move into the county, we’re continuing to see positive things happen to our economy. And so, it’s not nearly as negative as some people were afraid it was going to be. And the county continues to grow, and I think people continue to want to come here because of some of the measures that we put into place to protect it. HM: How do you feel about seeing the county grow so much? Over the past… TM: Well, I think it you know, we need to have growth. Growth is a positive thing, but at the same time you need to protect your assets. Particularly natural resources. That’s one of the ones that we have. You know, we don’t have a lot of flat land here, it’s all vertical. So, you’ve got to protect the mountains, and you’ve got protect the water, and you’ve got to protect the lakes and stuff, because that’s what people are coming here for, is to recreate. I mean, tourism continues to be the biggest industry. Between that and, I guess the government sector, are the two strongest sectors of the economy that we have right now. Between county and state jobs through the university and community college, and school system, and the DOT offices here in the county, I mean, government is a big factor in this county. HM: It is. Going back to while you were in office, did partisan politics come into play at all? TM: Oh yea. Partisan politics always comes into play. But the reality is, at the county level, most issues are not partisan in nature. I mean, they’re just local issues. I mean, it’s not a Republican or a Democrat thing. HM: You don’t have those two warring sides. TM: Yea. People want to try to make it out that way, but in most cases, it’s easy to work with members of the other party. You’ve known most of them most of your life, at least the ones that grew up here are easy to work with. Some of the people that have moved in that you have Massie 11 no relationship with are much more partisan on it seems like every issue. But in most cases, local issues are not partisan. I mean that’s, are you going to fund the fire departments? People get upset about their taxes, but you know, what’s the tax rate going to be? Are you going to put in a rec park somewhere? Those kind of things. Are you going to support your school system? HM: It’s about looking out for the community. TM: That’s right. It’s not really partisan issues. HM: Were there any obstacles, either social or political, that kept legislation from being passed, or kept you guys from really making a difference in the way that you wanted to? TM: I would have to say no. I mean, I think we did what we thought was right, no matter what. I mean, my philosophy on that is that you elect people to make what they think are the best decisions for the community. Because you can’t please everybody. I mean, there’s always somebody that doesn’t want this to happen, and somebody who does want this to happen, and you have to make a judgment as to what you think is best. That’s what they elect you for. Now, some people don’t believe that. They think that, “Oh, now I’ve elected you, you all do everything I want you to.” But the reality is that nobody is going to agree with every decision than any elected official makes, period. I mean, something it going to make somebody mad every time you do it. And even if you’re the same party I am, or even if you’re my best friend, we’re going to disagree on something. I’m going to do something, or some elected official is going to do something in office that you’re not necessarily going to agree with. HM: It just happens. It’s human nature. In retrospect, are there any situation or issues you wish either you and the other commissioners had handled differently? TM: I’m sure there are. I can’t think of what they’d be at this time. Perhaps, we could have been a little bit more sensitive during the start of the recession to some of the tradesmen, but there was really nothing we could do about that. Not a thing in the world. So, I would have to say no. I would probably do most of it the same way again. HM: Okay. Well, I found an article about your opinion on local politics, and how it really needs to be for the people. Would you mind talking a little bit about that, and how it’s about forming a connection? TM: I don’t even remember what I said. HM: I’m sorry. You talked about how local politics is about forming a connection with the people. You need to be up front with the issues. TM: And that’s exactly right. And that’s what I tried to do when I was campaigning. I tried to talk about the issues. I tried to tell people exactly what I was going to do so that there weren’t any surprises. I don’t think that politicians need to make promises. Things change, and Massie 12 circumstances change, and I’m not one of these people that says everything is black and white and it’s got to happen. For example, I was not particularly a huge proponent of the recreation center in Cashiers. Not because I didn’t think they needed one, but because I didn’t think they needed a five or six million dollar building up there. And when we did one of the political forums the second time I ran, that was one of the questions that came up in the Cashiers community. And I was the only candidate on the stage that just basically said, “I will not commit to that, because we’re in the middle of a recession. We don’t know what’s going to happen with the funding for the school systems, and I’m not willing to say that I’ll vote for five or six million dollars to build a rec center right now in Cashiers.” That cost me a lot of votes up there I’m sure, but I don’t care. I mean, everybody has their own philosophy so, anyway. No, I think at the local level, you’ve known most of these people all your lives, and even if you haven’t, these people are your neighbors now and you need to try to get along with your neighbors. But at the same time, you need to stand up for your principles. And if somebody disagrees with you, you don’t quit talking to them, you explain to them what’s happening, and we can civilly agree to disagree, if need be. That was basically my philosophy at the local level, on doing all these things. I mean, these people are my neighbors, my friends, I’m going to live here after I’m out of office, whether it was immediately or whether I served for forty years as a county commissioner, I’m still going to be in Jackson County. And I want to be able to look these people in the eye when I walk down the street when I see them and speak to them, and call them by name. So, I tried to make things… Yea, you have to run on a partisan basis. You have to run from one party or another, or as an independent, but as I say, once you’re in office you have to govern, and things are not partisan ninety percent of the time, at the local level. They’re just not partisan. So, I just always felt like, you need to do the best job you can do, you need treat everybody the same, equally, fairly, politely, and do the best you can do. And if they want to throw me out of office that’s fine. HM: Well, after they did throw you out office, after your time spent there, what sort of… How has your career sort of evolved? How have you stay involved in the community? TM: Well, I went back to… I never left my job with the state, and so, I went ahead and finished out my career and retired in March of this year after thirty-two years in government at one level or the other. And you know, I read the paper, and I continue to be involved with the Democratic Party, and I talk to elected officials about issues that I think are important out there, and continue to participate in some boards, and commissions. I’m on a board right now for the Great Smokys, and heavily involved with that, and so I continue to make my opinions known to elected leaders and others, and try to stay involved. HM: Did your time in office affect that in any way? TM: No, not really. I guess, I’m not sure that I’d ever want to hold elected office again. It was a privilege and an honor, but it’s not something I would’ve called fun, or something I want to repeat, at least not at this point in my career, or at this stage of my life. It did give me a little bit better perspective, and it also taught me that things are becoming a whole lot more polarized Massie 13 than they have been in the past. I mean, there’s always been some polarization, but I think things are a lot more polarized now than they have been. HM: I would agree with that. TM: I mean, just look at the national level, and what’s going on in the presidential race and that stuff. I mean, things are tremendously polarized. HM: It’s a little scary. TM: It really is. I mean, you can’t get anything done right now. The government can’t pass a budget about half the time. The federal government. HM: It’s a little frustrating. TM: It is. HM: What sort of opportunities have you gotten, did you get after coming, leaving the commissioners, and really focusing on being involved in the community and the workforce and working? TM: Well, really not a whole lot of opportunities. I mean, I’ve been… My job was to help administer a grant program for the state, and we built quite a few state parks, expanded some state parks, built some state parks by buying land for them. We made the money available for the Pinnacle Park project, over three million dollars. We’ve done that all over Western North Carolina. Protected a lot of the water quality that will be used in the future for economic development and for drinking water supplies as our population continues to grow, and for recreational opportunities out there. So, I found that very rewarding, and that’s basically what I have dedicated myself to since I’ve gone out of office. Even though it was my job, I’ve become more and more involved with it with the various land trusts out there, and looking at what we can do to protect natural resources that are irreplaceable. That you’ve got to have to sustain the quality of life that we’ve enjoyed in this state, and that we’ve enjoyed in Jackson County. And it’s been very rewarding. We’ve done quite a bit of work in Jackson County through the years through the Clean Water Management Trust Fund. We’ve repaired sewer systems. We’ve fixed sewer lines that were failing on the campus of the university up there. We provided the funds to run a lot of the sewer lines out to Scott’s Creek Elementary School, out in that neck of the community out there. As I said, we funded Pinnacle Park, made that available. We protected large tracts of land through conservation easements in Southern Jackson County on the head waters of the Tuckasegee River up through and around Panthertown. Those kinds of things. Backing up just a second, one of the things that I probably would do different that I didn’t do, when you were talking about it, was you know, we were involved heavily with this lawsuit with Duke Energy for the FERC relicense, which the county ultimately lost, after we spent about a half a million dollars. And I wish that I had been more convincing when I decided it was time to pull the plug on that project. That I could have convinced the other Massie 14 commissioners that it was also time to pull the plug. I worked really hard with that, and went to several meetings, including with some with Duke principals on two or three occasions. Once in Washington D.C., and a couple times in Asheville and stuff, trying to come up with some type of resolution, which we never worked out. But ultimately, I mean, we worked out some good things. The river access areas are good that Duke’s put in, the improvements they’ve done on Glenville Lake and Bear Lake and stuff are good for the public out there. And I just wish I’d been a little bit more effective in convincing to the other commissioners that, “Hey, it’s time for us to go ahead and call it quits, and stop this.” I was kind of the lone voice in the wilderness when I finally said that, because I got beaten in all those votes, about four-to-one. But that’s alright, I mean, you win some, you lose some. But I wish I had been a little bit more effective in convincing them. HM: What made you think it was time to pull the plug on that project? TM: Well, there had been enough rulings against us that I could see were not going to win this. Jackson County has a small amount of resources compared to a billion dollar company. That basically had multiple individuals and multiple lawyers representing them on that single issue alone. Whereas, the county was having to sit there and take people that had other jobs, like the commissioners, and like the county manager, and other individuals involved, and put them out there to try to compete and put out opposing arguments to the myriad of individuals that Duke was employing to do just that one issue. It was a good fight, and it was worth having, but we should’ve stopped it earlier than we did. HM: Saved some of those resources. TM: Yea, we could’ve saved some money on it. We should’ve been a little bit smarter about reading the writing on the wall on it after about the second time we lost in court. We should’ve said, “That’s it,” but we didn’t have the votes. HM: I’m sorry. I saw you worked with Trustees Clean Water Management Trust Fund. TM: Right. HM: What is it like working with that to try to preserve the lakes and rivers, and improve the county area, and preserve nature? TM: It was a very rewarding job. It was probably the most fun job I ever had. I mean, including when I was working for the county. It was a lot less problems. It’s always easier to give away money to people than it is to sit there and tell people, “No, you can’t do something,” or, “No, we don’t have any money.” Which is what we basically had to do when I worked for the county. When I was a county commissioner. But when I went to the trust fund, we started out with forty-five million dollars, we grew to a hundred million dollars. Over twenty years we put probably three-quarters of a billion dollars into preserving waterways, and expanding the state parks, and building state parks, and county parks, and improving sewer systems that were Massie 15 polluting the waters of the state. And improving streams that were degraded. Doing mitigation on those. So, it was a very rewarding project knowing that not only are you impacting citizens in Jackson County with projects that we’ve done here, but we’re impacting generations of North Carolinians that are coming. And there have been projects in basically every county in the state, and multiple projects in a lot of them. You know, greenway projects around the state so people can get out and exercise, which we need to do based on the obesity and the problem that people are having with diabetes, and they need to get more recreation and those kind of things. So, there are a lot of things that are going to impact future generations of North Carolinians that’s going to protect the quality of life. As I say, it’s going to provide the clean water that we need for drinking, for economic development in all these communities out there. So, it was a very rewarding job. It was fun. It was always, we were giving away a hundred million dollars annually. It was always fun to tell people, “Yea, you’re getting a million dollars, or three million dollars.” Now, since the recession it hasn’t been nearly as much fun when you’re down to ten million dollars, and that’s all you got because you’re telling a lot more people no than you are telling yes, on their projects. But I guess we spent, the state invested three-quarters of a billion dollars, seven-hundred-fifty million dollars over the twenty years, and we leveraged even more than that. I mean, we leveraged a couple of billion in dollars in private funds, or other funds. Either federal funds, or local government funds, or private citizens’ money to protect areas. So, it’s been a huge benefit to the state. I think the last count was that we had protected almost a half a million acres of land in this state. HM: What sort of work goes into that behind the scenes? Like what’s the paperwork like? What’s the labor like there? TM: For? HM: Protecting these areas. TM: Oh, it’s a tremendous amount of work. Most of it was done by the applicants themselves. You know, they’d have to go out and negotiate with the property owners, see who wanted to do it, work out the deals, come to us for the funding for it to purchase the land, or to purchase the conservation easement, and then we would help pay for some of the transaction costs. Pay for the attorneys, to pay for the surveys, to pay for the legal work to do the conservation easements or whatever. The state would pay for that and they would be doing it, but then at the state level, the state property office would have to sit there and look at appraisals and make sure that was a fair price, because we wouldn’t pay more than the fair value for the land based on the appraisal and all of that. And my responsibility was to go out to each tract in Western North Carolina, each application, with the applicant, and walk around and look at the property, and take pictures, and make sure that what they had written on paper was actually what was on the land. I mean, I was ground proofing what they had, making sure the application matched what was actually there in reality, and making the pitch to the trustees of saying, “This is what I’ve seen. You can’t possibly, you twenty-one people, or nine people now, can’t go out and look at a hundred and fifty pieces of property. But I have looked at sixty of them, and here are the pictures, and this is what it is, and this is my thoughts on it, and if you Massie 16 want a recommendation then I’ll give you a recommendation, or [Steph] will give you a recommendation on whether this is a good project or not.” HM: So, you got to meet a lot of really different people through that. TM: Oh yea, great. And see a lot of wonderful places and unique things. A lot of endangered species, lots of beautiful streams and lakes, and places that are going to be parks, and all those kind of things. Yea, it was a great job. HM: What was it like working on Pinnacle? TM: It was a long drawn out process. I mean, we started on Pinnacle, the whole concept of the water shed becoming something other than a water shed started when I worked for the county and we formed the Tuckasegee Water and Sewer. Because that had been the town of Sylva’s water shed, they were faced with a pretty big expense to bring it up to meet the new clean water standards. They were going to have to spend several million dollars to upgrade their water treatments systems and all that. We saw the opportunity then to go to the town, the towns and the county and say, “Hey, let’s look at consolidating everything into one. Let’s take all of these assets and put them into one entity instead of having three different groups out there fighting for the dollars to run the water systems and the sewer systems, and do all that kind of stuff.” And the mayor, at that time, tried to do some things on Pinnacle Park in terms of putting in the conservation easement. When they agreed to do that, that didn’t work with the town board at that time. But it didn’t fall by the wayside, it just kind of sat there for about five or six years, people mulling it over. Then, when I got with the Clean Water, then, I was able to go to them and say, “Hey, we can pay you something for this land. We won’t pay you the full value that you’d get if you sold it to a developer, but we can give you fifty cents on the dollar. We can give you basically, half the cost of the land if you were to sell, and you don’t have to do anything to it. You can just turn it into a park.” So, as a result, they took a non-performing asset, which was costing them money, and they got three million dollars instead to turn it into a park, which didn’t cost them anything. And they’ve got three million dollars they can use on other things, which they’ve been using for several years now to offset a tax increase. HM: Hey, whatever works. TM: Whatever works. HMS: What about serving as a Western Field Representative? TM: Well, that was with that same job. It was great. I drove around a lot, they gave me a car, they let me stay in Sylva, and I had my own office in Sylva, I set my own schedule, and I got up every day, and I was on the road usually most of the time. HM: That sounds fun. Massie 17 TM: It was fun. It was the most fun job I ever had. It was great. I had to go to Raleigh about… When we started out, we met ten times a year, the board met. And so, and they were always on the weekends. We’d meet on a Sunday and a Monday, and so usually I was… One weekend a month I was basically gone somewhere. And the first years, when we had lots of money, we met all around the state to make people aware of the program. So, we’d meet on the coast, or we’d meet in Murphy, or we’d meet in Boone, or in Charlotte, or… And so, you got to see a lot of the state so, that was a lot of fun. Since the recession, all the meetings are in Raleigh, and I didn’t have to go as much. There were fewer meetings to save money, all those kind of things. But it was fun. The car, I had about anywhere, it varied, anywhere from thirty-three counties to twenty counties. So, I’d get up every day and I’d see a different part of the state. I met lots of nice people. Worked with a lot of land trusts. Really admire the work that they’re doing. The hard work that they put in. I made some great friends doing that. Yea, it was a great job. HM: It sounds like it. TM: Yea, I hated to, in one sense of the word I hated to retire and leave that, but since I’ve done it I have not missed it. HM: You’re enjoying taking it a little slow. TM: I am. Well, I’m not taking it slow actually, I’m working harder that than I was when I was working. HM: What are you doing now? TM: Well, just things I want to do. Mowing the yard, working in the garden. HM: Living your life. TM: Yea. Traveling a little more, doing those kind of things. It’s nice to be able to go on vacation and not worry about how many vacation days you’re using because you’re going to use them all the up. HM: It sounds like a good problem to not have. TM: The bad thing about that is I’m an old man now, and I ain’t got that much larger to live, I don’t guess. HM: Well, you’re a delightful man so, I hope you do. TM: Well, I hope I do too, knock on wood, but the largest portion of your life, by the time you retire, is over with. Massie 18 HM: That’s fair. Yes, sir. Well, I don’t have any more questions for you. Is there anything else you’d like to add or talk about? TM: No. This is all kind of a muddle. I don’t know how you’re going to make any heads or tails out of any of this stuff. END OF INTERVIEW

Tom Massie is interviewed by Helen Miller on June 9, 2016, as part of Mountain People, Mountain Lives: A Student Led Oral History Project. Massie, a former Jackson County Commissioner, discusses his childhood memories of Haywood County and his college experiences at The University of North Carolina Chapel Hill and The University of Georgia. His 32-year involvement in Jackson County politics, starting with the Southwestern Planning Commission, the Center for Improving Mountain Living and continuing with the Soil and Water Board, and time as County Commissioner, are examined. Massie discusses a variety of accomplishments and projects including the renovation of the courthouse and addition of the library, utilizing the Clean Water Management Trust Fund for repairs and new sewer lines, Pinnacle Park, and conservation easements, steep slope regulations, issues with Duke Energy for FERC relicense, and time as a Western Field Representative.

• Creator
  • Massie, Tom
• Contributor
  • Miller, Helen
• Format
  • Sound recordings
  • Interviews
• Type
  • Sound
• Date
  • Date interview: 2016-06-09;
  • Date: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 2000s (Decade); 2010s;
  • Date digitized: 2017-06-10
• Extent
  • Duration: 00:53:53 (sound recording)
  • Duration: 18 pages (transcript)
• Subject - Topic
  • Autobiography
  • Community organizations
  • Jackson County (N.C.) -- Environmental conditions
  • Jackson County (N.C.) -- Officials and employees
  • Jackson County (N.C.) -- Politics and government
  • Jackson County (N.C.) -- Social conditions
  • Massie, Tom -- Interviews
  • Massie, Tom -- Knowledge and learning
• Location
  • Jackson County (N.C.)
• Source institution
  • Western Carolina University
• Source Collection
  • WCU Oral History Collection - Mountain People, Mountain Lives
• Identifier
  • HL_MPML_Miller_Massie_2016-06-09_audio
• Repository
  • Western Carolina University Hunter Library