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Interview with Ola Mapp

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Interview with Ola Mapp

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Interview with Ola Mapp

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  • Mapp 1 WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA TOMORROW BLACK ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Interviewee: Ola Mapp Interviewer: Edward Clark Smith County: Buncombe Date: October 2, 1987 Duration: 1:11:01 Edward Clark Smith: Do you recall ever having been told Mrs. Mapp by your parents or your grandparents where your family tree begins? Ola Mapp: Yes, from my father's side and my mother's side. My mother's parents, they came up through slavery and also my father. In fact, that's where I got my maiden name DeShields through my father's parents. I: Do you remember them? OM: No, I remember them telling me, but you see after my mother moved to Asheville when I was about five and a half years old, I was something like that then we would go back, my brother and I would go back in the summer to visit our grandparents and… I: Where were they? OM: My grandmother lived in Woodruff, South Carolina and on my mother’s side my grandmother and grandfather lived in Woodruff, South Carolina and on my father's side, they lived in Spartanburg County out from Spartanburg. But we used to just…then I had an Uncle Ada, you remember Ada Mims that married Iva Angel, she was here too and we would all go back together and we used to enjoy just sitting around hearing them talk about slavery because they came up through slavery. This was my mother’s parents and my father's parent also, but anyway that's how we got our maiden name. He got his maiden name through the people who had him in slavery and his parents DeShields and that’s my father. I: What was your father's first name? OM: David DeShields. And my grandfather was named Samuel DeShields and he said his master had a daughter named St. Ola and he thought that was the prettiest and he said to himself if he ever grew up and got married, he was going to name his first grandchild, one of his first granddaughters St. Ola and that's how I got my name. St. Ola DeShields but that DeShields came from… I: The slavery. Mapp 2 OM: And they were from England I think, it's a French name. They were from London or England or somewhere like that. I: And you say you…what about your father's side? OM: This is my father's side. I: What was your mother's maiden name? OM: Her name was Nanny Mims. Now, her parents they also came up through slavery. I: Where were they from? OM: Woodruff, South Carolina. That was way down below Spartanburg, down there, well it was way below Spartanburg in the country. Woodruff and…well, Woodruff that's where it was. Cross Anchor Road, you've never heard of those down in that area. I: How did they come to North Carolina. OM: They still lived in South Carolina. I: And that's where your mom and dad was in South Carolina. Do they ever tell you how they met? OM: My mother and father? Yes. They met…mama said they used to ... they had a…you know they used to trade people to work on the farm. They had these farm hands. The people had plantations and they had farm hands that they would trade people to work on the farm and my mother was a country school teacher. You see there were a crowd of them and she said at the time when there was a big family they would make a sacrifice for one of that family to go to school. Now, they went to school but when crop time came, they had to come out of school and work in the fields. My mother was one of the ones who went to school and she was a country teacher. In fact, she was teaching when she married and when my brother and I both were born but the way she met my father, he was one of the farm hands that came over on the plantation where they were living to work and he met my mother like that. They were still living on plantations? I: What were they like sharecroppers? OM: Uh huh. I: So, that's how they met and how old were they when they got married? Mapp 3 OM: Well, my mother I think she said she was I believe she was 22 when she got married cause she was married a year before I was born and she was 23 when I was born and my father was two years older than she was so he had to be 24. I: And they started cut in Woodruff, South Carolina. I wonder did they ever say why they moved? Did they come to Spartanburg County or did they come to Asheville? OM: No, they came to Asheville. They lived down there until they moved to Asheville. I: Wonder why they moved. OM: For better conditions. I: What were the conditions like? Did they ever tell you what conditions were like in Woodruff? OM: Oh, yes cause they worked on a farm and by the time they I didn't know too much about farm life but from what my mother and father could say by the time they were together their crops and everything they didn't have too much left cause it was all taken for the seed and for money that they had to borrow to buy flour and groceries and things like that. By the time, they got through paying off as they called it they didn't have anything hardly left. They would work all year and then they wouldn't hardly have anything left to go from one year to the other. So, people then a lot of them were migrating from there to Asheville and other places for better conditions. I: I wonder what made them think the conditions were better in Asheville? OM: Well my mother had relatives here who they were working at Oteen. She had two brothers, Uncle Hart and Uncle Webster they were working at Oteen. I: And those were your uncles? OM: Uh huh. I: How did they get to Asheville? OM: I’ll never know how they got here. I guess through some friends, but they were working at Oteen then. The hospital, cause Oteen was about the best place then that Black people could get work. And they were working there. I: So, your mom and dad heard about it through them? OM: Uh huh. Through them. So, they came here in 1921. Well, they first came in 1920 to see about work and then they back to South Carolina and then they moved they put their Mapp 4 application in and my uncle sent my mother word that they were hired or something. Anyway, they were hired in 1921. I: At Oteen? OM: Uh huh. I: What were they doing? OM: Orderly work. You know my father was doing orderly work and my mother was waiting on patients. But she was getting twice more money than she was even in the country school teaching down there. And then she came back and got my brother and I and brought us here in that same year 1921. I: Did you ever hear them talk about what social conditions was like in Asheville? OM: Well, I didn’t hear them talk too much about that because my father and mother both were church going people and they used to have entertainments at the church and box suppers and things like that and I didn't hear them talk too much about any other social activities that they had outside of well my uncles that were living here they used to go out to card parties. I: Ms. Mapp what year did your mother retire? O: She was 73 in 1962. She was 76. She went back to school at 76 years old. I: Boy she wasn't a quitter, was she? What did she study? OM: She took reading and writing and arithmetic. I have her books upstairs. Math and she had a beautiful handwriting. She sure did, she lived at Hillcrest. I: Did you have a good relationship with her as a child growing up? OM: Oh yes, both of them. I: What were their attitudes about education for you? OM: Their attitudes were that my brother and I both go and get all we could. I: And you say they were religious people and brought you all up in the church. OM: Sure did. And she didn't send us. They both carried us. And you said something back about the activities in the church. See then there was not too much outside activities you could do because you didn't have time because when they worked and came home and when he, my father, he organized the note choir I don't know if you remember anything about do re me Mapp 5 choirs like that. He organized that choir at our church and at other churches and if they weren't going to choir rehearsals they were going to prayer meetings and revival meetings and things like that and there was just no time for anything else and course when they would go to these places we would have to go with them. I: So, you got a chance to see how things were carried out. OM: Yes, uh huh. I: Do you recall any differences in… what religious persuasion was your mama and dad? OM: Baptist. I: They were Baptists? OM: Belonged to the New Mount Olive Baptist Church. I: So, they were members a long time ago? OM: Oh yes. I: Do you remember any differences in church services then? How they carried out certain… OM: Yes, a big difference. I: What are some of them? OM: Well now everything is programmed. You have a time to do this and a time to do that but then when people had the urge or felt the spirit to sing a raise a song or anything like that, that's what they did. And seems like the services then were more soul stirring then than they are now. People were more together and it seems like times were hard then and you know when you could go maybe next door and get an egg or a cup of sugar or something like that people were closer together in the church and in the community and in your neighborhood and everywhere. But now that everybody have just about what they want seem like they are farther apart. They're not as close even in churches. And folks didn't care about what you had on to wear. You could come to church with a pair of dungarees on or overalls or whatever, barefooted. You know, that's right as long as you were there. So, it’s just so much different. And it seems the people were more interested to me in the young people. They were interested in their welfare. You know they kept them busy all the time. They didn't have time for…they were more chaperoned than they are new. I: Did the church do more in the community? Mapp 6 OM: Yes, they did. Cause mostly new churches just open on Sundays. They are. That church, you could see a light on every night of the week. Something was going on. We had games at our church on Thursday nights after rehearsal for the children. They had games downstairs. Pan games, potato game or whatever it was. I can't remember now how it worked, but they had something for entertainment all the time. We had Baptist Training Union at 6:00 on Sunday afternoon. I: You went to all of that? OM: And there was just something to keep them busy all the time. Then they had a group in the neighborhood if a child or family was missed that Sunday coming to church and you didn't see them they would go out and visit and see what was wrong. See why you weren't there. They were just more concerned. They didn't have much but that closeness was there. I: And I guess that was where the leadership for the community came from. OM: And the dollar was not that important. But the dollar now is the first priority. But then people were the first priority. I: When you were growing up what was Asheville like after you say got a little older. Now you went to Livingston Street? OM: And walked from Livingston Street to Hill Street and didn't know what it was to ride. I: Even in the winter? OM: That’s right and schools being closed because of weather. That didn't happen. I: What were you doing at that time to, you know, if most of the activity that the young people had was in the church was that where you learned your leadership skills? Because I know when we were growing up we always looked to you and Mr. Mapp and others that was who we saw. You know there was always somebody for you to keep trying to surpass to improve your life. OM: Yes, there, and in PTAs after we were married and started a family and everything then we didn't miss a PTA, we were still together with parents being concerned about children in PTA and we were organized there and we would have different activities going on there. I: Now when you got to Hill Street did school change any, I mean how was Livingston Street, was there any difference between the two? OM: Yes, because that was for older children you see. We had concerts and what would you call it, operettas. We had all those things at the close of the season. Each grade would have their concert or their operetta or whatever it was and the activities were different because the children were older. Mapp 7 I: Who were some of your teachers at Livingston Street, can you remember? OM: Yes, well Ms. Battle, she was the principal but, and her daughter Jeannette, she was one of my teachers and Ms. Thomas, she was one of my teachers. We didn't have but three teachers. See it was just three rooms. I: Livingston? OM: That's right. I: What was it made out of? OM; Wood. I: Well what was Hill Street like? OM: Hill Street was better. It was better, it was partly brick and partly wood. It went to the seventh grade over there and then we didn't have straight grades like they have now. They had IA and IB, 2A and 2B. I: Why? OM: Well, when you were in the first grade you get promoted from the first grade, then you go to IB. I: How old were you when you started to school? OM: When I started? I was about six and a half years old I guess. I missed half of a year because I went back to stay with my grandmother and when I came back school had already started and then you see my mother was still teaching me at home too and that is why I was never in the second grade. I was promoted from the first grade to the third. I: Why did you go stay with your grandmother? OM: Well, the reason I went to stay with my grandmother is because of my mother’s job and my brother did too, but see when they first started working they had to work at night until about six months before they could get a day job and Mama didn’t want to leave us at home so we stayed with her. I: So, you went back and stayed with your grandmother? How did you feel about that? OM: Oh, I was glad. I just loved my grandmother. We just loved the country. We could see the cows and horses and everything. Mapp 8 I: Now that was in Woodruff. OM: Yeah out from Woodruff in the country. I guess it was about 12 miles from… I: Well how did you all go back? OM: On the train. I: How long did it take? How old were you? Well you had to be around five. Who took you? Your mama and them took you down? OM: Uh Huh. I: Well riding the train what was it like? OM: Oh, you could stick your head out the window. I: Was it segregated? OM: Yes. Oh yes, it was segregated. I: You didn't think about that. You just wanted to be on the train. OM: That's right. I: And you stayed down there, how long did you stay with her? OM: About half of the semester, I know. I: Well what was she doing out there? OM: Who? I: Your Mom was taking care of people like nursing? And your Dad was still an orderly and they just got on to the day shift. What happened to you while you were down there? Did anything of interest happen to you? OM: Well I got to go to school with some of my relatives. I got to go just to sit there with then when they would go. My grandmother wouldn't let me stay around there as long as school was going on. Then we would come back and be there with my grandmother and grandfather to play and have a good time. I: So, you preferred the country to the city? Mapp 9 OM: Oh yes. I sure did. Well I didn't know any better then, I guess. I: But your Mama was a smart lady? OM: Oh yes. I 'd say she was the smart lady in the family cause she was very industrious. Sometime when you're over here I'm going to get her books out and let you look at them and see her handwriting and everything. I: Did she do well at 76 in school? OM: Uh huh. Everybody was just amazed. She was just the type that wanted to keep herself busy. I: So, then I know that is amazing, you know, I don't think any of us will do that. I don't know if we are made out of the same kind of stuff. OM: Well after she passed away I started going to Montford Center just doing volunteer work and then I had a chance to go to Biltmore Tech to take some refresher classes. I get my GED, but after I had it I took some refresher classes over there and graduated. And that's why I got the job I have now. I never had had an office job in my life and that was six years ago. Now I didn't have any idea that I would retire and be working six years. But it has really helped as far as my muscles and helping me feel better and everything like that. It has really helped. I: You know I think about all the time Mr. Mapp spent with us in the boyscouts. Somebody had to be somewhere doing something for him to be able to be there. OM: That’s right. I: Something had to be going on behind the scenes. OM: That’s true. I: So, when you went back to South Carolina and then when you came back you were at Hill Street. You started out I mean. OM: no. Livingston. I: Ok, I was thinking you were at Hill Street when you had to go back. OM: No, I was at Livingston. I wasn't quite…oh, I was six years old and I missed about a half of a semester and then I came back, I guess I was about six and a half, and I went to Livingston Street until I was eight and then I was promoted from Livingston Street to Hill Street. Mapp 10 I: What grade were you in at Hill street. Where did that start? OM: Fourth. I: And went to what? OM: Seventh. I: Ok, who were some of your teachers? OM: Yes, Professor Koddle and Ms. Murray. They're all gone now. And Mrs. Dusenberry. You've ever heard of Mrs. Dusenberry? She’s still living. Paul Dusenberry? I: Is it the Mr. Dusenberry on South French Broad? OM: Yes, his brother's wife. I: I seem to remember. OM: She retired from teaching in Forest City. And Professor Michael, he was principal and his son was one of the teachers… Dr. Nanna Michael. She was one of my teachers. Ms. Hayes, she was one of my teachers. They're all gone. I: Now what kind of things did they try…what were you learning at Hill Street. What is the difference in the information. Did you know that the information had changed? OM: Oh yes, because you see there was a difference… this was a grammar school I would call it and that was an elementary school at Hill Street and then Stephens Lee was a high school and so there was a difference. I: So, you went from the seventh grade to Stephens Lee. You go eight through twelve? OM: No, the twelfth grade didn't come to Stephens Lee until 1936. I: So, you went eight through eleven? OM: Uh huh. But when I went back to Biltmore Tech the refresher classes that I took on my certificate, it was equivalent to a twelfth grade. So, I have my high school … I: But coming up I expect you… you didn't have to work in place of going to school, did you? OM: I worked and went to school. I worked the whole four years I was in high school. I: Where did you work? Mapp 11 OM: I worked with my mother and with some of my mother’s friends of the people that she worked for. I would go after school and babysit and wash dishes and things like that. Mama didn't have to spend a dime on me for my high school education. My books, my fee, or anything, I did it. I: And when you finished high school during that time what did you want to be? OM: I tell you I had a four-year scholarship to Mars College. I really wanted to be a school teacher but Walter stopped all that. [laugh] But I don't regret it. I married and I took some courses through the mail even after I married. But I married and had a family and I didn't regret it at all. That's the truth. Well you see it was the equivalent to a full grade except it was divided up into semesters. We were promoted twice a year where now they would be promoted once a year. I: O.K. you were promoted from A to B where we were promoted from first to second. Wonder why? OM: I don't know but that was just the system. I: In a way it might have been good because you would find out quick if you weren't doing good. OM: You're right and your mother was the same way. She had the A and B because we used to talk about it. She went to Stephens Lee. I: So when you graduated, did you all have a ceremony? OM: But you see we made our own dresses. We had robes but we had dresses. We made our own dresses, we made our own prom dresses. We had a sewing class. I: So, you all had proms? OM: Uh huh. I: Well when you got to Stephens Lee where they educated people or were they teaching people things like home ec. OM: Yes, that's where we made our dresses in the Home Ec classes and I tell you the children, they were really learning, they didn't have no time to play around like they do now and if you didn’t get it, you. didn't get promoted. And now a lot of children go to college and they don't really… I: They can't read. Mapp 12 OM: No, and it's sad. But if you. didn't get it then, you didn't get promoted. I: What were things like in Asheville when you were getting ready to graduate from high school? What were social conditions like in terms of would you be able to get a good job? OM: Oh no, it was terrible. That's why so many students then who even went to college they couldn't come back here and get a job because they couldn't get anything white for one thing. And we worked, I tell you I worked for 50 cents an hour. It was first 35 and then I was raised to 50. And then you worked all day for a day's work until Roosevelt came along they made 8 hours to be a day. But you worked from sun up to sundown. On Saturdays, I used to work …I would go to work at eight o'clock and my mother used to go to work at seven o'clock in the morning and she didn't get back home until seven o'clock at night on some of her jobs. But I used to go to work at eight o'clock in the morning and when I back home Mama used to meet me down on the hill, sometimes. I would get back home just a little bit before dark and I would have three dollars. I: What was town like when you had to go shopping? OM: It was different and you could take a dollar and go to the grocery store and get enough groceries to last two or three days. I: With a dollar? OM: Uh huh. And you could get five cents worth of sugar. And it was about a pint I guess. And you would get enough bacon to last, for about ten cents you would get enough bacon to last three or four days. You know, fat bacon and you could get a loaf of bread for six cents. I: Where were you living? After you graduated from high school you stayed with your mom. OM: Uh huh. I was living on Scott Street. I: And you were out working and come on back in the evening. What was there to do in the evenings When you came in from work? This was after you were out of school and living with your mom. OM: Well I didn't live with Mama too long before I married. But after I got home I was so tired I didn't feel like going anywhere. I: Did they have social clubs for young people? OM: Yes, but I was never interested. I: But what I'm asking, that was like a society. Mapp 13 OM: Yes, they had social clubs. And I was invited several times to some of their parties, but I could have belonged to some of those but I just couldn't afford it because you had to pay a fee. I: So, you went to church and you met Mr. Mapp. And let me ask you again, when did you all get married? OM: We got married, well we got married I guess about two or three months after I finished high school, right after I finished high school. I: So how long have you all been married? OM: We've been married 54 years. I: You all grew up together. And what was he doing for a living when you met? OM: When I married Walter, he was working for I think it was Clark's cigar truck. He drove a truck for Clark and Fowler, that’s what it was. I: You all got married here in Asheville? OM: No, we splurged. He had people in Greenville and we went down there and got married and spent our weekend honeymoon down there. I: Where did you all go? Did you go to a motel? OM: No, we stayed with his aunt. She wouldn't let us go anywhere else. I: Ain't no honeymoon to be staying with nobody. OM: We couldn't afford to go nowhere else. No hotel or anything like that. I: Did you all have a church wedding? OM: No. We just married at a minister's house. I didn't want to spend all that money. We didn't have a church wedding. I: Had you ever heard your relatives talk about marriages? OM: Uh huh. My mother… I: Did you think those ceremonies were any different from the one you had? OM: Huh uh. My mother didn't have a church wedding. Mapp 14 I: So, what did you do? You just went to the minister's house? OM: No, Walter knew the minister. He used to pastor here, so I guess about two months before we married he wrote this minister and had him to get the license and everything and told him we would be coming down. So, when we went down he had everything ready. I: Did he propose to you at the church or when did he propose? OM: On the way, home I: Did you say yes right away. OM: No. Huh huh, I told him I would have to think about it and after I promised him I wrote him a letter and told him I couldn't do it. I: Why did you change your mind? OM: I was just afraid I guess. I: What made you change your mind? OM: Well then, the more I thought about it the more I knew I cared enough for him that I wanted him to be my husband. Then my mother told me she said now when you get married it has to be for a lifetime. She said you can't go in it and she said when you’re in it, you’re in it so you better think about it. I: Well did you have other friends? OM: I just had one other John Thompson and he was a friend of Walters. But he was the only one that would come around but any of them that would come around it seemed that I just didn't enjoy being around any of them except Walter. He just seemed to be a nice type of person and he was respectable and he was just somebody I felt like would make me a good husband. I: So, you got married. You went to South Carolina and you got married and you came back to Asheville. Where did you all live? OM: With his mother. His mother lived on south side. I: And he was working for the cigar company. How many children did you all have? OM: Six boys and two girls. I: Start with the oldest to the youngest. Mapp 15 OM: Walter and Wallace and Wilbur and Winston and Kenneth and Patsy and Nift and Karle. I: Nifty, Patsy, and Karle. Why did you have so many W’s in their names? OM: That was Walter. He’s the one that named them. I: So, he tried to name all of them after him, didn't he? OM: And Nifty, her name is Saint Ola but he named her Nifty so we could tell the difference between the two names. She was named for me. I: She sure was. How many young children did you have at home at the same time? You know what I mean, like you had the three older ones. What was your life like during that time when you had… say when Walter was like 10? OM: You know what Edward all those children were home, but it was a happy time. Although times were not too good but still we all enjoyed each other. We all of us enjoyed each other, the family did. And you know we would play together and we would share, just like parents and children would share together, we would. We had neighbors that said they would rather come to our house than to listen to the radio or watch TV then because TV was… some of them had TVs then but we didn't. But I'm going to tell you something. Of all the classmates and friends, I had, I had more children than any of them. My family was bigger and they could have nice things and dress nice or whatever they wanted, but that didn't bother me. I made myself contented with what I had and what Walter could afford and I think that had a lot to do with it. I didn't let it worry me, you know just whatever I had I made myself happy with that. And we got along. My children didn't have a lot of things but what they had was good enough for them and we didn't have a lot of fancy food but what we had was enough to fill them up. So, I really enjoyed a big family. I: What was… you all showed more interest in the children, parents seem like they did then because they all went to PTA meetings. I recall a couple of times being shaken in my boots because I had done well all that time and gotten in trouble just before a PTA meeting. OM: I know it. You're so right. But see parents don't attend. I don't see how parents can have children graduate… go to school all year and never attend the PTA meetings. And your mother and I didn't only attend PTA meetings. We were over at the school just to be over there visiting just to see how things were going on with the teacher and the children and I think that’s important. I: What was you and Mr. Mapp’s feeling about education for the children? OM: We both felt the same way. That we were going to do all we could for the ones who wanted it, to do all we could to give them an education. Mapp 16 I: And all of yours got one. OM: At least they got a high school education. Now Walter didn't go to college but he went to Biltmore Tech and that's how he got his job as foreman out at Enka and Wallace didn’t go to college but when he was in Washington he went to a technical school and got a license for a painter. That's what he always loved to do. Nifty and Patsy went to business school and all the others went to college. I: You always had an athletic family. OM: Yes. I: What do they do athletically? They’ve had a lot of successes athletically. OM: They have. Kenneth got a four-year scholarship at Fayetteville state for basketball. Karle he got a four-year scholarship at Livingstone for basketball. Winston got his at Winston-Salam for football and he just liked being 12 hours finishing Winston-Salam but he and Wilbur decided that they wanted ... they got this good offer to play pro-football. So, he left Winston-Salam and went to Canada to play pro-football. And Wilbur left too, but he came back to A & T. I: Mrs. Mapp do you in your lifetime remember any historic events that affected you and your family like droughts or bad weather? OM: Well, yes, bad weather and I guess you would say droughts. I remember in 1936, was it 1936, I guess it was 1936 that was nearing the end of the depression I believe it was because I had two children. I: Had the depression been hard on you? OM: Well… I: Was it any harder on Black people than what you recall it was on white? OM: Yes it was because jobs were hard to get. I know Walter, my husband, it was just hard for men to get work at all and that's why I started working like I did because women could get more work than men. He was helping Mr. Allen some but jobs were very hard to get and they had a vegetable cannery. You would remember that. And I remember I got a job working in the vegetable cannery through WPA. You've heard of WPA days. I: What did that stand for? I: WPA. The welfare something association. I can't think now, Edward, it's been so long but it has something to do with the welfare program to help people who didn't have jobs. I can't think now what it stood for but it had something to do with people who didn't have work. People Mapp 17 who… it was between the welfare program…it was kind of the middle of the welfare program I guess. You weren't on welfare, but yet you needed it but still you weren't on it. I: But everybody was on it, wasn't they? OM: But anyway, I worked there until we could do better and that's when they we’re rationing things, rationing sugar and… I: How did you get… OM: They give you a card and you go up to the welfare department and they give you books according to how many was in your family. We got more than we needed but I could share mine with some of the others who didn't have as many because see there was Walter’s mother and me and Walter and I had three children, Walter, Wallace, and Wilber. But we made it. We didn't starve, we didn't miss a meal. We made it. We got along, but still it was kind of… I: It was hard times. OM: Yes, it was, it sure was but we survived. I: It might have made you stronger. OM: But I think Edward let me tell you something with the help of the Lord you can make it. And God knows it if it had not been for him we might not have made it, but we did and a lot of white people you know so many people committed suicide but you didn't find Blacks committing suicide. Cause a lot of white people couldn't stand it. I: Well during that period you had three kids. What was going on in society at that time in terms of how Black people were treated in town and on jobs were they fair? OM: No. Cause when you would go into the grocery store and you would stand at the checkout counter, if you go in the Ten-cent Store wherever you went then if you were behind somebody, two or three people behind and a white person would walk up even in front of you if they were behind you, they would wait on that white person first and you know something, Edward, you might not believe this but this is the truth. They would have fresh meats and stuff like that to come in and now they would have just like stores down there in our area where we were. They would have the fresher meat to came on that side down there. They would have the fresher meat to came in the area where the whites were and that was found out to be true. But what could you do about it. I: Well that's what I was asking. Were people thinking about that? How did you feel about that? OM: Yes, we were thinking about it. But there wasn't a thing we could do about it. Where I was working, the lady where I was working. She told me to stop at the store and get this meat for Mapp 18 her on my way to have it for supper. So, I did. And she was very concerned because she was a big help to me and my family. Cause the Lord always will send somebody to help you, you know. And I was telling her, I said you know what Ms. Witt I just can't get any of this fresh meat. She said you can't? I said no, they don't have it on our side but they have it over here for you all. She said we will see that you get some. So, she called the store up there where she worked and told him that she was going to take me home from work and that I was going to stop by there and told him how much meat to have ready for me when I came in there and when I came in there he had the nicest cuts of meat ready for me just because she called and told him to have it ready. But now if I had gone in there to get it he would have said he didn't have it. That’s what we got from so many places when we would go in places, they would say they don't have it or they're out. Or they would give us this secondary stuff. Black people had a hard time, but they made it. This was during the depression. But see they didn't have food and stuff to come in then like they do now. I: So, when the depression ended how did that affect you? Your family at the end of the depression? OM: Well, it was better. There were some things that we could get that we hadn't been getting. It was better. I: But then how were the social conditions? Our attitude toward white people and their attitude toward us? Did it get better after the depression? OM: Yes, it got better. I: Do you think that it's any better today? OM: Do you know what? Yes and no. You know what, Edward, you would be surprised now, we have integration now. We have the word integration. But a lot of them have integrated because they had to do it not because they wanted to do it. We still have a lot of it going on now but it’s just not being shown as much. That's true. You can sit on the bus and you can have privileges like that whenever you want to. But a lot of them do it but it's not because they want to. In fact, after Martin Luther King caused all these other things to happen it was not because a lot of them wanted it to happen. It was because you had to do it. And you can go in eating places now and a lot of them it’s not because they want you in there but they know they can't help themselves. That’s just the way I feel. I: What do you think it is going to take for continued progress for Black people? What are we going to have to do? OM: Well, I will tell you the truth the only thing I personally is gonna take more prayer and more sticking together ourselves. cause a lot of us are against each other, but it's just gonna take I think getting the act together ourselves and getting together ourselves and just asking the Lord to still be with us cause we've got a long way to go. We have. It's the truth and that's Mapp 19 where they want us to be right back where we were and the way some of them are going, Edward, that's exactly the way it's going to be. But what bothers me and I was telling my husband the other night. What bothers me is our young people dropping out of school and walking around here with these great big radios, or whatever, juke boxes or something on their shoulders and a beer can in another, dropping out of school don't hardly know how to spell their names and they don't realize that in years to come, they can't get a job on the garbage truck if they don't have at least a high school education. This is what the white man wants. This is exactly what he wants and that's what's going to happen. I tell my grandchildren the same thing. Said playing ball is fine, but let that be a means of helping you get your education. I: What do you feel…is there a difference between the education we got, now keep in mind I came out of an all-black school system. Do you think that that school system did as well as the school system does now in educating the Black children? I mean I feel like I'm glad I came out of an all-Black school system. OM: It did better than it does now. I: It seemed like because, well I don’t know, [then too], children and mothers are much younger than they were. OM: That’s true too. I: In raising your children Mrs. Mapp how did you and Mr. Mapp set examples because I always remember Mr. Mapp as being the super boy scout leader, the choir leader, the chief cook and bottle washer and I saw… did you all have organizations that tried to improve and make things better? OM: What do you mean? Outside of the home? I: Outside of the home like community organizations. OM: Yes, uh huh, we did. I: How are you active now? How are you and Mr. Mapp active now? OM: Well we're still active in community organizations, community clubs and you know we work with the Heart Fund each year and it's not the community chest now but it's, what is it you call it? They combine all… I: The United Way? OM: Yes, uh huh and we're still active there and until I started working I was working with the 4-H Club. In fact, in 1979 I believe I was the first Black secretary they had. They never had any Black people involved too much in the 4-Hers. But we were both active in that and we're still Mapp 20 active in church and let me see what else. Well anything that we are called on to help that's going to do our people good, we're always willing to do it. I: Well is Wilbur still doing art work? OM: Uh huh. I: Where is Wilbur now? OM: He is in Brooklyn, New York. Do you have a picture of him? I: And he's a sculptor. OM: And do you have a little one? Oh, yeah that little one…he's at that school there. I: Here he is at work. Does he come home any? OM: Yeah, he'll be home for Easter. I: Does he have any children? OM: Ray, he finished Johnson C. Smith last year and he has a good job at the Coca Cola place. He is working with the computer system and his younger son is up there where he is. He got a scholarship in school there at this art school, what's the name of it? It's in Brooklyn, New York. What is the name of that school? Oh, I can't think of it but anyway that’s where is Andy is, his youngest son. I: Have you got any of his art work? OM: Yeah. Let me see…Edward, have you been in the YWCA since you've been home? That big sculpture sitting right by the door that’s his… I: Who was this Maggie Jones? OM: That was I know you wouldn't remember her, your mother would. She was one of the prominent ladies here in Asheville. She lived over there right next to the school. Her husband was at one time I think a minister. I: The School was located at 59 Bartlett Street, I didn't know that. OM: Do you know Bruce Pagan? I: Huh uh. Mapp 21 OM: You don’t. He used to be a probation officer here. He has a daughter named Shaundra. She graduates from Asheville High this year. Anyway, they live in her house on Bartlett. It faces Adams Street. That big two-story house. That's where it used to be. I: Mr. Mapp was president of the PTA for 14 years at which school? OM: Stephens Lee. I: And then you were president of PTA at Hill Street for 8 years. What kind of things did the PTA do? OM: Oh, we did a lot of good things. We would keep the interest going between the parents and the teachers and if there were parents who didn’t show an interest in their children or the PTA then we would try to do something to interest them to came to PTA so they would meet their children's parents and we would have box suppers, and things like that, box dinners and things like that so we would introduce the parents and then we would have what do you call that, meet the new members. We would have that every year something like a tea and then if there was any money raising to be done we wouldn't allow the children to do it. The PTA would do it and that would take that off the children and keep them from going different places but if it was anything they needed then the PTA would be responsible for doing it. We have a lot of good things going. That's right. We sure did. I: I guess being the president of an organization like that works you hard. OM: Well we had good parents working along with us, but it was pretty hard work and then you see the president would keep in touch with the principal and they would have meetings with him to find out if it was any needs there that the PTA could do and it was just interest and cooperation between all of them. But they don't have that now. I: They need it now more than ever. OM: They do and you didn't find children getting into trouble then like they do now with all this drug stuff going on and everything. You didn't find that and if they had a strong PTA all this stuff that's going on in schools now it wouldn't be. It's just sad. I: Was there ever a Black newspaper published in Asheville? OM: Yes. I: Who was it? OM: They called him Smitty. It was called the Black Enterprise and the office was down there on south side. Yeah, I remember. Mapp 22 I: Somebody was saying I would never have remembered it. OM: You wouldn't because I guess you weren't born. I: Well was it Black businesses? OM: You know Edward we had more Black businesses then than we do now. We had a Black newspaper, we had Black grocery stores, we had Black shoe shops, we had Black cleaners, we had Black clothing stores. That's right. We don't have Black nothing hardly now. I: How did that happen? OM: This integration, I tell you integration just ruined everything for us. From the schools on down now that's the truth. It just took away everything we had. I: They integrated everything but the money. OM: You're right. That's the truth. It sure is the truth. You know her, this is… I: That's Ms. Boston, and that's Ms. Daniels, and Ms. Harris, and I remember her. That's Ms. Weaver… OM: And this is Ms. Jones. I saw this in here somewhere. I: Did she say she ever had a lot of contact with the president like seeing him? OM: Huh uh. No, they only saw him once a month. I: Unless he came in the area they was working. Did she enjoy it? Did she say she enjoyed it? OM: Uh huh. She did. She said there she said…what did she say on the end down there? Something about…but they had privilege to go and see all the beautiful things that were there. I: And she was quite familiar with it. And you've been all through it? OM: Not all through it. I know it’s in here because I was looking at it. I: Does she ever give you her opinions on any other of the presidents? Like she said she though Truman was the best. OM: Yes. She said Roosevelt… she wasn't there, she was just there about a year, you know she went there the same year he died and the same year Kennedy… I: Well how did she get the job? She got the job… Mapp 23 OM: Through this captain, you know I told you. I: I imagine they checked her out good. OM: Oh yes, they did. Cause everybody don't get a job there. Wonder where is that? I know it's in here. That's the president's dining room.
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Oral Histories of Western North Carolina

These interviews document the communities and culture of Western North Carolina. Topics include the building of the Fontana Dam, the history of WCU, stories from local veterans, integration of the...

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