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Interview with Lucy Ann Siler

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  • Lucy Ann Perry Siler is interviewed by Lorraine Crittenden on August 11, 1986 as a part of the Western North Carolina Tomorrow Black Oral History Project. The audio is unavailable for this interview. Siler, born in 1894, grew up in the Texana community near Murphy. She talks about her grandmother who was enslaved in Hayesville and her father, Spence Perry, who worked for Mrs. Nettie Dickie at the Dickie Hotel. Siler discusses race relations in Murphy which, except for an incident that put her nephew in jail, she felt were mostly positive. Siler discusses church services and customs. She talks about the Depression and raising her children.
  • Siler 1 WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA TOMORROW BLACK ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Interviewee: Lucy Ann Siler Interviewer: Lorraine Crittenden County: Cherokee Date: August 11, 1986 Lorraine Crittenden: You’ve been in the Murphy Medical Center Nursing Home a year and four months? Lucy Ann Siler: Correct. I: Before then where did you stay? LS: I stayed at home and had a nurse. I had four nurses, different nurses and I stayed at home. Mostly with this girl Andreau [Inaudible] says she’s home now. I: Mrs. Siler has your family always lived in North Carolina? LS: That’s correct. I: What part? LS: Well, part of them lived here but you mean my immediate family? I: No, let’s start with your grandparents. LS: Well, now, I told you my mother was here in Murphy and my daddy was from Wilmington, North Carolina. I don’t’ know anything about his people except I hear him talk about Philip Perry was his brother and Lizy was his sister and his daddy was named Theo. He moved to Alabama and his mother was named Roda. She was part Black Hawk Indian. I: How do you spell Roda? LS: R-o-d-a. I: She was part Black Hawk Indian? LS: That’s what he told us. I never did see his relatives. Joe Perry, he used to teach school right out here. In Asheville it was [inaudible] School at that time. But he never did come see my daddy you know. They say my daddy was disinherited. When I go to school and he had a dog he called [inaudible] he’d have these books and he'd take a dog and one time the dog came home, he said let’s go. The dog would come running and he's a fisher and a hunter. Siler 2 I: Your father? LS: He would go to school and the rest of them went to school was educated. You know my daddy's dadddy was half Irish. I: Half Irish? LS: Yes. I: No. What did he do for a living? LS: My daddy? I: No, your father's father. LS: I don't want to think about those people. One of them, I know he said Willey was a blacksmith. I: Now, who is Willey? LS: My daddy' s brother. I: Was he from Wilmington too, his brother. LS: I beg your pardon? I: Willey, from Wilmington too? LS: Oh, yeah, they all were born in Wilmington, free. They were all born in Wilmington. I: And your father was free? LS: Yes. I: But your grandfather was a slave? LS: On my daddy's side? I: On your father's side. LS: I don't know. He by my dad being half Irish he was free. I: Oh, so he was half Irish and half Black. Siler 3 LS: That's correct. I: What else do you remember about your grandfather? LS: Nothing. I don't know a thing about him. I: On your father's side? LS: On my father's side. I: Willey was your grandfather's brother and he was a blacksmith? LS: I forgot how many children he said they had. His daddy and mother had. His daddy was named Theo and his brother name was Willey, Lizy, Joe. I believe that’s all I ever recall. I: What about on your mother's side? LS: How many were there of them? I: What is your grandmother's name or your mother. LS: Delia Alexander. I: Lily? LS: Delia. I: Alexander? LS: Alexander. I: Now, was she a slave? LS: Oh, good Lord, yeah! An African too. They say I favor her. I: She was an African? LS: I heard of telling many a times about how she had a [Inaudible] of husbands you know. They caught her in my mother and just in the arms you know and brought her over and had her daddy. He jumped the boat and was almost cross back to where the island, where they came from. The little ship caught him and said she never did see him anymore. They sold her, I don' t know - how many times, let’s see. There was my mother of course they [Inaudible] mother. Siler 4 They sold her. She had [Inaudible] Alexander and they sold her for a good breeder. Four times did I know last time they sold her to the Alexanders in Hayesville. I: In Hayesville, North Carolina? How many children did your grandmother have? LS: Let’s see. There was my mother, of course the one that died in Africa with some kind of kidney disease. My mother and Joy Alexander, Jeff Alexander, and [Inaudible] Alexander and Jane Alexander. There was five. I: So, your grandmother had five children and she was owned by someone in Hayesville. LS: Yeah, the Alexanders. I: The Alexanders in Hayesville. Later on did she die a slave or was she free? LS: Oh no, she was over 100 years old. She stayed with my mother and then she'd go back and stay in Hayesville. She lost her eye-sight, was all she said and take her [Inaudible] [Inaudible] house tied up in a big sheet and she'd set up on the porch and beat those sheets beat the dirt out. It was a mystery to me because I'd never seen that before. I: No, and you call it brining? LS: Those [Inaudible] out of there and [Inaudible] would come and get the bottom part, what she be gotten [Inaudible] her own. She put them on the side. Then she'd start to beating them again. I: What kind of peas? LS: Clay peas. I: Clay peas? LS: Ummh. I believed in raising clay peas. I: What else do you remember about your grandmother? LS: I just remember her staying with us, with my mother and daddy and remember her then I'd go to Hayesville. She went back to Hayesville and stayed with her other daughter. I don' t ever remember staying with uncle Jeff and uncle [Spence]. Uncle [Spence] was the youngest child. I knew they [Inaudible]. I don' t remember her ever saying but she was over 100 years old. If she wasn't blind she was just about to be. She wasn't crippled up like I am. I: How would you describe your grandmother? Siler 5 LS: Oh, let’s see. She was taller than I am. I guess she' s about 5 ' 6 something like that. She's chunky little[inaudible]. Little short hair and real white hair. She was extremely proud. She wanted her petticoat, she called them starched. My sister would starch them so stiff until she could stand them up on the floor. I: Didn't that scratch when you... LS: It looked like it would. I have a bonnet now in my home. A black bonnet with ruffles on it. I: That your grandmother's hat? LS: My grandmother’s bonnet. I: How would you describe her? LS: The bonnet? I: No, your grandmother. Was she a strong person? LS: Yes, she was strong. She stayed strong. She was never sick, I don't know anything it until she was ready to pass. I: Until she was ready to pass she hadn't been ill. LS: No. Only thing she just went blind. I: Do you remember how your mother's parents…? LS: That was her. I: How did they earn a living? LS: Oh, no! My mother' s parents are not living. I: No. They weren’t ever freed from slavery? LS: That was grandmother. She wasn't never freed and I don't know anything about my mother’s daddy. I: What about your immediate, now let’s go to your father and mother. LS: My father was Spence Perry. I: Spence Perry? Siler 6 LS: I told you all I knew about him. I: Did you ever hear anyone say how he earned a living? LS: My daddy? I: Yes ma’am. LS: Oh, he was a cook. He cooked for Mr. [Hennessee] all the way up in [Hennessee] place. He was from Germany. He was the kind that find gold. What do you call than, inspector, whatever you call it. My daddy cooked for him years and years and then after he died, my daddy went to Nettie Dickies Hotel and stayed there until Mrs. Dickie passed and shut down the place. I: Now where is this hotel? LS: Right now it's, I haven't been to Murphy in so long. Let's see right now there's a store there just as you come up from the depot. There is a store there now. That whole street that belonged to the Dickies, Nettie Dickie. They had houses everywhere. There were houses for [Inaudible]. My daddy had a place he could stay at night. Sometime he'd come home. He stayed there. He was a waiter. Then after she got so sick, she didn't want him to wait. She just happen to have it were he could take his picture. He looked like Santa Claus. He was real light and had white hair all over his face and beautiful hair on his head and nice features. He was just more of a show. She'd bring him out so many times. I: Now you said he stayed in a house that Mrs. Dickie owned? LS: Correct. I: When was he allowed to come home? LS: Anytime that he wanted to. He was not a slave. Mrs. Dickie was just a runner of a hotel. Drummers used to come in to Dickie Hotel. The ones that work there. He waited tables. She got younger people in you know. My daddy I guess he was every bit of eighty some years old and he could stand on his head. I: Wonderful. LS: Wonderful and he could dance. Very active. Why at first he raised his chickens after we [inaudible] he came home. He'd go fishing. Very active. I: Did your mother ever work outside the home? LS: Oh yeah, my mother had to work. Siler 7 I: What did she do? LS: Well ,she washed, ironed, and cooked. She'd go to different places and wash. I: So, while she was out working who took care of the younger children? LS: They worked. Everybody worked in my house but me. I: Were you the youngest child? LS: I was. I: Oh! Well, how much education did your brothers and sisters? LS: Well, they all… Professor Patton teach… they all went to the ninth grade. I: Here in Murphy? LS: I went to six grade. I wasn't going to Patton. I went to Patton when I was about eight years old. I can remember that. I: Patton is the name of the school? LS: It's owned in Waynesville. Charles Patton and Mary [inaudible]. Did you know her? I: No. LS: Mary [inaudible] use to teach in Bryson City. She married a [inaudible], Mary Patton. She married a [inaudible] and they moved to Waynesville. I: May Kemp. LS: Oh, that's right. I got it wrong. May Kemp. Yes now that's my aunt. That’s right. I got it wrong. Mary Edda taught Murphy. I: She did? And then she went to Bryson city? LS: No, she went to [inaudible] Tennessee. I use to live there you know. I: In [Tennessee]? LS: [inaudible] was then what I call now. Siler 8 I: So, your brothers and sisters went to the ninth grade and you went to the sixth. How is it that they got more education than you did? LS: Well in school they put Charles Patton in there. There was just three months to [Inaudible]. In [Inaudible] there was three months and in the town of Murphy there was three months and in there was three months everybody went to school up that way. Three months was all I had to go to school. I: So, what did you do the other nine months of the year? LS: Me. Play ball. I: Play ball. LS: Play ball and shoot marbles. My sister's boys, my older sister, her two boys, we'd come out together and of course I was born in July 1884 and he was born in January in 1885. We all played together. Played ball and shoot marble and fight. I: When did you begin your life outside of home or did you always stay home. LS: I always stayed at home. I: You didn't have to work? LS: No. Even after I married I didn't go to work until I begin to put my children in school. I put Anna Ruby… had to go to, we didn't have high school in Murphy at that particular time and I washed and ironed and sent her to Allen Home in Asheville. I: Did you? And her name was? LS: Anna Ruby Blount I: Anna Ruby Blount? LS: Anna Ruby Siler I mean. I: Siler. LS: Of course she married a Blount. [She graduated from Virginia Union University]. I: I graduated from [inaudible]. LS: You did. Siler 9 I: And I had aunts before me, so I'll have to ask them if they remember her. LS: She graduated there and my second daughter, Hannah, did I get her name down? I: No, I just asked you for your brothers and sisters, so feel free to put your children in. LS: Oh, yeah. Hannah, we sent her to Knoxville because my husband had a sister who lived in Knoxville and she went to Watson High there and graduated there. She got a scholarship to [Inaudible] Apex College and became a beautician. Anna Ruby after that I washed and ironed like…. sent her to[inaudible]. I: Teachers college, Winston Salem Teacher College. LS: That's right. I: Is she still teaching? LS: No, she's retired. I: She has retired. LS: She retired. I: So, you had three children? LS: My son he made it for himself. He had to go in service and while in service they sent him to Goldsboro and he signed up Air Force. Then after that he take me up there and he married a fine girl. She was a teacher and she insisted on him going back to school. So, he went to Knoxville and same place where Hannah did and she helped him. He went back to Goldsboro. I: What did he study in school? LS: Well, at first after he taken up. I’ll tell he taken up what you call brick mason and that was too hard on him. He fell out she said so she got him down maybe go to college. So, he went to A&T in Greensboro. He finished there and taught a while. He taught several years and now he's dean at the Wayne County College. I: Where is Wayne? LS: In Goldsboro. I: In Goldsboro? Siler 10 LS: Correct. He has to travel around and make speeches. You know telling about the school and everything. I have big write ups so many times when I tell about him. I: I know your proud. LS: I'm very proud of all of them. All of them one gave me, Frankie just finished school. She didn't care to go to school. She's just a real good cook and she likes that and house work. She said she didn't want to go to school. I don't know why but in a way I was tired of working. I didn't have to work out because we had the little truck patches. I could do the and take care of that. I: What do you mean truck patches? LS: Oh, well we planted corn, beans and everything I could can. I guess I canned about a hundred cans of everything except cherries. I couldn't get, the birds beat me to my cherries. I: Weren't fast enough. LS: I would can beans, corn, tomatoes, I mean soup mixer, apples, peaches, make kraut. I: So, you canned most of what you ate. LS: Oh, yeah. I’ll tell you what we had to go to the store to get. I: What did you have to go get? LS: We had our own cow and milk. We had our own hogs. My husband will keep a hog and cow. We'd have to buy sugar, coffee and flour. I: That's all? LS: That was all. Of course sometime we'd take a notion if we didn't have no kind of [inaudible] to kill them we'd kill a calf and [inaudible] that beef. But we usually eat our hog meat because we killed twenty-three hogs. We raised our own chickens. I: So, you had everything you needed right there. LS: Oh, at home. Yeah, I’ll tell you what I did to my daughter that made her a beautician. She married a fellow in Atlanta, Georgia. I stayed since I been down three years with her. I saw her foot. I know Mr. Dickie told me, why Lucy. I said I got it frozen pretty good now maybe I'll make it. I stand up on these great long cans of butter molded and put the candy and put plastic all the way around it. She won't eat and I sent it to her. My daughter that lives in Michigan, Lily, before her first child was born she wanted. She said mama I wish I had some kraut and a piece of ham. I seen a ham in Mrs. Ragsdale from Asheville. She was teaching now. She got carton of milk and Siler 11 poured the milk out and packed that kraut in that carton she dried out and in that carton. We sent [inaudible] back. So, Lenny said just to smell you she told him you now bring water for [inaudible] to [inaudible] make but not in this. Now that was the wrong way to say it. I: It certainly was. Now, all of your children left Murphy? LS: That's right. I: Why was that? LS: I beg your pardon? I: Why was that so? LS: Just left I guess. It wasn't because we had a happy home. I: No, but did… would they have had the opportunity for the jobs that they have or had? LS: None but my oldest daughter, Anna Ruby, she taught right her in Murphy. Of course she first went to [inaudible]. She had kindergarten like kids. I: So, they left for better job opportunities. LS: Hannah’s come home now but she's been in Atlanta. She's lived there so long. She's sixty or fifty something, born in twenties. They, I have five born in the twenties and they were all about the same age. I: Their all stair steps. Right. What do you remember about the social condition of black people when you were younger? LS: When I was young, well, that's Perry. There weren't but a few families near. [inaudible] live in something higher than the other families in town and in Moores Creek and But we all associated together. See there were just the McCrimmons, Bowens, Silers and the Woodsies. I: Now, all these were all black families? LS: All black. I: How was the atmosphere between blacks and whites when you were younger? LS: It was pretty bad but not in Murphy not as bad. We'd have a tough time when people come from Downy, Beaver Dam, and all those places. But as for Murphy it's just like it is right now except we didn't go to school together. Siler 12 I: What about church? LS: Same thing. My mother use to go to the Baptist church which is [inaudible]. That Methodist church you know there in town and all the black people went right there in town. I: So, black and white went together. LS: Yeah, right there from [inaudible] they did. My husband's uncle buried over there in Murphy at that church and aunt has a baby buried there. I: In the white cemetery? LS: Sure. And John McClemmons, that's my husband's grandpa, John McClemmons , _____ and ___ ' s baby and grandpa Isaac' s wife and somebody else but I just know them. I 've heard talk of them. I 've never seen them. I: Was there any other social interaction between whites and blacks? LS: They'd slip… they'd came to take Santa and they'd slip up there to take Santa and then when the white women would just visit my mother's home in the Siler home too. They were just nice white people like folks and all of them. Momma would have to cook some dumplings for Mr. [inaudible]. He'd come just his bowl. My daddy was a barbeque. He told us to get down papa's recipe. I didn't ever hate or pass without. Oh, it was good. It wasn't red like they have now. I: You never got your father's recipe before? LS: He needed… He had it about that color, I don't know how he did it. It was good. I: Would it be a fair statement to say that there wasn’t any racial trouble as long as the black person stayed in his place? LS: That's right. It wasn't like being in Georgia. Murphy is the best place I know of that there was a boy when I was just a child. A girl growing up and going into town just about a trust and he owned all the keys. Far as it tore him up, I played with boys and I could fight just like a boy could. I tore him up and went to my brother, he was working at the counter and just a crying. I: You beat him up and then started crying. LS: I went to crying. So, he went and told his mother, the boy's mother and he was what you call afraid. He told me now said he hadn't made a thing on her hurt. She started hurting and still crying I want to take up for you. So, there wasn't nothing done about it. Murphy had just been good about that. I remember Lester [inaudible] married a lady. I don't know if she were from Siler 13 Sylva, well any way she was kin to Esta May's aunt. She was in love and Harry Coper, big shot, he'd pass by and hit her. Boy! She tore him up on the main street. I: Really! LS: He didn't do a thing about it. I: So, the blacks weren't particularly troubled if a white person done something to him and he took up for himself. He didn't have to… LS: No, it was just all right. I: What do you remember about the religious customs that were prevalent during your time younger days and the ones now. What's different about the religion? LS: A lot. I: A lot? LS: Back then they white in that Methodist church but now we have our own church. Of course my grandson up there he visits right smart preacher. Like his wife have her singing have it hanging down. He bring her up here time or two. I think that's great. Different places now 64 preaching. I guess his mother being what she was and his granddaddy being what he was. They honor respect us quite a lot. My husband was a dry cleaner. He was dark cleaning almost a tailor because he would fix things. I: Where did he learn the skill? LS: His mother was always good about. She was a seamstress. You know you through his mother... But as for dry cleaning it must of just came natural to him. I: Do you notice, let’s go back to the church for a minute, do you notice any other differences in the church? LS: Of today? I: Yeah, LS: Now you can still go to the Methodist church. I: Right. But in the church some of the customs in the church such as baptism. LS: We still have the baptism but there's not a difference that have changed even in our church since Grant has been there. Siler 14 I: Reverend Grant? LS: He don't carry out like Reverend Herbert then did. I’ll tell you another thing, in the communion part. In communion they act like it's a disgrace to drink wine. It's all in the Bible. In our communion we drink grape juice of course that's a fruit of the vine too but in Reverend Herbert's day, George and Bill Herbert, we drink wine and [break] bread and Emma Powell always made that bread. I: Emma Powell from Bryson City? Emma Powell, her husband is from Bryson. LS: That’s right. I: Willie Powell he and Mrs. [inaudible]’s mother were brother and sister. You say the communion services? LS: Not like it used to be. I: Ok. What about the way that the minister was treated then and the way he is treated now? LS: Well, back then the Herberts, I know more about them then anybody, they visited. I: The minister visited… LS: The best of people, but Reverend Grant of today, he goes everywhere. He stays too long in places he should not stay. Not meaning any harm. I: No. LS: But he stays too long. That might be his way but it causes a friction. People are gonna talk about that. We never have had a pastor who visited the sick, now, I don't know the time he hadn't been up here to see me and ministered unto me, brought the communion and all. I: But Reverend Herbert didn't do that? LS: No. I: Ok, that's communion. The sermons, is there a difference in the sermons? LS: Well, Reverend Herbert's sermons, Reverend Grant's sermons are very fiery, emotionally but Reverend Herbert, he always made parables. He could take a grain of corn and you could just see it. First you don't believe in this part and that little grain would bend back. You could see it finally coming up and making a stalk. Now, he was more of a parable man. Siler 15 I: So, he was more of a teacher you'd say? LS: See, he went to school, now he was a farmer, but when he sold that wheat and stuff, he went to school in Atlanta and [inaudible]. I: Academic Marshall? LS: Down there in Atlanta, Georgia. What you call it? I know all of those colleges but can't call any of them right now. Anyway, just about where you teach a Bible. What is the name of that school? I: Did they have christening of babies in the church? LS: Then? I: Then? LS: No, but they do now. I: They didn't have christening. What about funeral services? LS: Oh, it wasn't like, you’ve been to Reverend Smith's [inaudible]. I: Yes, ma’am. LS: It wasn't like that. You just read a scripture and tell what the [inaudible] meant to the church and then you… I: When did they start having the funeral services in the church? LS: I really don't know because it's been that way ever since I've been in the world to know anything. I: How did or was the body carried from the church to the cemetery? LS: We use to now the cemetery and church are all right there. There would be about four men would carry up that hill from the church. I: What about when the people who didn't live in Texana, how would they get the body from the church or home to the cemetery? LS: Well, they had a cemetery on [inaudible] but them [inaudible] is all [inaudible]. They were Methodist but they all buried over there. There was a large family who had a member of their family is there. They came in hearses. Siler 16 I: So, most of the black families. LS: Went to [inaudible]. I: Went to [inaudible]? LS: But [inaudible]. I: So, each community had its own cemetery? LS: Mhmm. I: What about the wake? Is there a difference in the wakes? LS: People would come to the house and the body stayed in the home and they would visit the home and sit up all night. But now you [inaudible] undertaker and they have a certain hour for you to go. I: And view. LS: Most of the black people except for the Wileys and the Wiley's family and them. We all go to the Townsends Funeral Home. I: Here? LS: Yeah, right here. Townsend was a citizen and we all got use to going there. Most of us go there except the Wileys. They go to [inaudible]. I: I see. Now, the body you said was kept at home? What did people do to keep the odor away. LS: Drink coffee. I: But there was nothing done to the dead person’s body? LS: Well, there was Charlie Hill, he would do something, I don't know what it was and he'd let Norman [inaudible] and what it does it would keep until like two days for others to come in where ever they were from. I: So, nothing was placed on the chest or anything like that? LS: Not that I can remember. I don' t know what they did but I know what happened. Could keep them, he was good, Norman was good too. Siler 17 I: He would do something to the body? LS: Yeah, would… I: But they didn't call it embalming. LS: Charlie he taught him something to do. [Inaudible] could even make caskets. I: Who in the community made the casket. Was there a person with that skill? LS: Wood Hyatt. I: Wood Hyatt? LS: H-y-a-t-t. I: Hyatt, was he a black man? LS: White. Yeah,he was a black man. I: He was a black man? LS: Mhmm I: Did he ever make any of the caskets for the white people? LS: I don't think so. I never heard tell. He'd make them for babies and things like that. I: Who would? LS: Wood Hyatt would make baby caskets if a little baby died, but there was a man from Waynesville, I think. He made caskets just like one that you go and get at any funeral home. I: Now? LS: He did then in [inaudible]home. Now, he's dead and she had one boy, he was buried. He went somewhere across the mountain. He was bad. He got killed and then when [inaudible] got ready, when she passed, this man came from Waynesville. I thought he was gonna tell me that wasn't a nice casket. So, they tell me. I wasn't out there. Townsends undertakers came over to see it and they looked and it and they praised it. I: But the man from Waynesville was a black man? LS: Yes, he was a black man too. Siler 18 I: And so they looked at the casket and then modeled theirs after his? LS: I don't know about that cause I reckon they ordered theirs. I: Oh!! LS: But [inaudible] had theirs made and you couldn't tell it from one of his if they sent him that. Boy, it's just too high to die now. I: Certainly is. LS: Too high to go to the hospital and anything. When I put myself in here, the girl that was staying with me. She one of them, [inaudible] Oliver. She said soon as I get me a job, I'm gonna quit this one as soon as I get me a job. When I let her come she's the one that came and asked for the job. I told her I'd been paid seventy-five dollars a month, a week from 8:00 until 3:00. She was really good nurse. I had two white girls would do that. The two black girls were all right but this last girl I had she worked here. She was really good better than these are here. She's right there. I: Do you remember when black people first were allowed to go to the hospital in Murphy? LS: Do I remember? I: Were they allowed? LS: I was just fixing to say. They have always have gone. I: They've always gone? Was there a separate wing? LS: All I can tell about when we use to ride the train going from Murphy Blue Ridge to ball games. They had a curtain up there to divide themselves but not as for Murphy, it was not that way. The meanest thing ever done in Murphy that I can remember, my nephew, Daniel Perry, he had been rowdy maybe [inaudible]. He said when he came back he was going to kill up all of Perry's. And he came back, he got in the yard and shot my brother Carlton and Daniel shot him and killed him, drove his [inaudible] home too and that's when they had all of them from up here [inaudible]. And God let it rain so hard you know and they couldn't get up that hill. I: To get your brother? LS: Didn't get up the hill and when they had the Charles do you know what. The lawyer that my sister payed for him, do you know that this lawyer said he could not feel, from Robbinsville, he could not feel toward a black person like he could a white person. He was in our own yard just as close as you are to me. The porch and they sent him off for three months and they said if he Siler 19 stayed they would kill him right if he come they'd carry him right down to the court house. Mrs. Davidson said this white man. He said you let someone come in to my yard and go to shooting, I won't do nothing else but shoot and kill them if I can. All the white people, I mean white people were [inaudible]. They had [inaudible] to these old way down in Copper. You’ve heard tell of them. I: I’ve heard of Copper, Tennessee isn't it. LS: You’re right. That was who it was. That my brother. They put him in jail and he done shot my brother in his kidneys. My brother didn’t ever used to bother [inaudible]. He didn’t ever act right anymore. It worried him. I: Where was he in jail? LS: They put him in Asheville. I: Asheville? LS: Safe keeping, that’s the worst thing that I know of that has ever happened and you would say it wasn't nothing of course. The Moodys, they from Robbinsville, the lawyers. I: Lawyers? LS: Yeah, Lizy's lawyer, my sister lawyer she got for her son. Worst thing she ever got in her life when she got him. I’d let my son been killed. I: Would you? LS: I just believe in right. I: And you don't think the Moodys would have given him a fair trial? LS: They didn't. They didn’t. You know if anybody come in your yard and go to shooting and shot [inaudible] in the yard and pulled the [inaudible] on the fire place right there in the yard. I: That is scary. LS: That was disgraceful. You know everyone of them died right after that. I: Did they? LS: Lawyers died right after that. Yeah. Oh, Ralph is dead now but he went to Raleigh. My son couldn't stand him, he lives in Goldsboro. He said he couldn't stand old [inaudible]. I said why. Siler 20 He' s from Robbinsville. Tried to get so smart. I said the poor devil. He was running my husband. All those black men drink beer. I: Right and then he…. LS: Went to [inaudible] big shot but he' s dead now as a door nail. I: Dead as a door nail is he? LS: My daddy would barbecue. He'd barbeque for both black and white. I: For both black and white? LS: That's correct. I: Did he barbecue at home? LS: No, he barbecued for us across the highway and out on [inaudible] town he barbecued for the white. I: So, he had to start before the fourth? LS: Yes. I: And he would barbecue for the blacks and then the whites? LS: That's correct. I: Now, what did you do were there special games? LS: There were. The children would climb a greasy pole [inaudible] and then there would be speakers [inaudible] a different one would come awhile and then and talk. Sometimes so many times, you black people are patronized. Someone else patronize us; said don't do that. Take patronized uncle Spence Perry, a fine gentleman. I: So, you had a speaker on the 4th of July? LS: Correct. I: Was there ever a black speaker? LS: Yes, Mr. Andy Wiley. I: What did he? Siler 21 LS: I don't know what he talked about he [inaudible]. Kind of [inaudible], I couldn’t tell what he was talking about. I: Was the greasy pole the only game you played? LS: No, no, we had different games and we would recite recitation. I always recited the recitation. Kind of [inaudible] I never was good on these good speeches. I decided Tom’s and one named [inaudible]. In Tom's [inaudible] went off. We had a great big party down there at Tom's house last night. Was I there? You bet. Then [inaudible], I would recite [inaudible]. The Lord has made this lovely land for white and black folks too. He gave these manuals [inaudible] to me now what's been[inaudible] into. We ourselves. We [inaudible] law. We [inaudible] the [inaudible] haven’t done nothing, we ain't done nothing at all then how come we've got to go. said [inaudible] you trust in God. He'll fix things [inaudible]. He loves us all you know. He loves us every all colored folks if our hearts are pure and clean and [inaudible] the Lord says follow [inaudible]. I spoke like that [inaudible], of nice speeches. But I would get the fun at the last. The others would have nice but I just couldn't recite. I: Well, you did beautifully just then. LS: Well, that's only kind I can know. I: What about Christmas? LS: Christening? I: Christmas. LS: Well, we would have a Christmas tree. Young people would but on Martin's Creek they would give [inaudible]and they'd tell my a great big [inaudible]. My mother never did. I never was allowed to go. They'd have dances. My mother would just cook up a great big load. Somehow she use to go [inaudible] and she'd take corn bread and make she called it. What did she call it? She made like lite bread and it was corn bread but it was baked. It was very good. She'd have a big turkey because she raised turkey. She had a big turkey, chicken, and beef. I: Was there Santa Claus? LS: Everybody just didn't want too many [inaudible]. They'd come and there'd be a big old ham cooked on the table. Our dinning room I guess it's as large as this room. I: Did your mother and father own their home? LS: Oh, yeah! Siler 22 I: Did they own the land? LS: Yeah. Everybody in [Texana] owned their own land and own I: Was there a Santa Claus to visit in your house too? LS: Mhmm! Santa Claus, I had everything that a child could mention. It was just so [inaudible] for me. They were all older. I: Do you remember anything special about Christmas? LS: Why sure I do. I remember my daddy. He'd come home on Christmas. He just lived up there on [inaudible]. He'd come home on a Christmas. He'd have a gallon jug of liquor and he'd drink him some of that then he'd dance. But my mother would get up and had Sunrise Prayer and she'd go to that. I 'd have to go with her. I: That was the way you celebrated Christmas? LS: That's the way we celebrated. Me and mother would go to Sunrise prayer meeting and of course I had to go with her. My daddy stayed at home. I: Since the families didn't have all these store bought things, what did you do as a family on cold winter evenings? LS: Store bought things what you mean toys? I: Toys. LS: I had toys. I had dolls and little piano and I had something like bells a ringing although, I had all those kind of things. I: Would you say the families of yesterday? LS: Now other children didn't have what I had. I: So, you were more fortunate in that sense? LS: That's right. I: Would you say that the families of yesterday and the families of today as far as the relationship has changed? LS: I think so because you know how families are today. When I was raising my children, I stayed at home as a mother and see that my children were taken care of and see that they Siler 23 were at home at the regular time at night. If they not, I'd go after them. I never let them go to dances like I was brought up. I didn't allow them to go because any and everybody is at places like that. Well, I didn't allow them to go and of course I got the name of thinking I was better and me and my family and anybody else. You know how that goes. But I wasn't, I was just trying to take care of them. I didn't have that [inaudible] they had it but I didn't. But I just couldn’t allow mine and I 'm very proud of my family. I: They've all done well. LS: Well, I think so. Even my girl that didn't go to school, she's a good cook. She can clean up. She wasn't. She went to Bakersville, California with Mrs. Ann [inaudible] use to be in [inaudible] and she was out there for ten years. She never did go with nobody. She just went out there and she met somebody. She only stayed about three weeks. She has one child. She's [inaudible] born. Now, he' s out here in Boone, in that college now. I: I see. LS: They, everyone except her have a good education and can use it and have used it. I: Could you tell me about some of the leaders in the black community? LS: Now? I: Then. LS: Then? Oh, yeah, they had good leaders then real [inaudible]. John [inaudible] and a man they called [inaudible] Jackson. I: What did these people do? LS: They were deacons. I: No, leaders. Perhaps you misunderstood me. Leaders in the community. Were there people that the rest of you went to in time of need? LS: No, I don't think so. Not in our community. I: Was the minister considered a leader? LS: Oh, yeah, Reverend Herbert. I: Could you think of anyone else? LS: No, I can't. Siler 24 I: What about the teacher? LS: Well, about two or four teachers [inaudible]. They were very nice and they would visit something like that. But seem like they were just after that little dab of money. I don't know too much what they did. I know George Henry when bringing my children up. He wasn't a leader. He wasn’t a good teacher and beat your children just like they were in slavery. I don't know anything about him being. There isn't any kind of example for them to go by because I had him to come to church at our church up there. He'd had a bunch of boys he'd be looking out the window. I mean standing at the window. I know Reverend Herbert said we should get rid of him. But later Mrs. [inaudible] and people like that [inaudible]. They begin teaching was much better. Although he was a [good] teacher and when my child went to Allen Home her back, you could tell were he'd whipped her. She's awful sweet size. I: He whipped her on the back? LS: Yes, with a hickory. He was awful. He was they told tells. He liked boys he didn't like girls. He never crossed a [inaudible] and whip them. We tried to get rid of him but the superintendent was… he didn't care and he liked him and we couldn't get rid of him. I: Now, was there only one school for blacks to attend in Murphy? LS: There was only one. That was in [inaudible]. That's what I'm trying to get by. I: I'm sorry. LS: That's [inaudible]. There was just one school. Most of the blacks later left Murphy, left [inaudible], and [inaudible]. There wasn't hardly anyone there. Now in my families oldest family that belong to [inaudible] was the only reason we [inaudible] in ___ some from Georgia. Over in town the [inaudible] they from over in [inaudible]. I: Do you remember people were skilled or talented? LS: In [inaudible]? I: Yes. LS: I know Wood Hyatt was. I: Was he the coffin maker? LS: No, Wood Hyatt he take care of the undertaking. Wood Hyatt had a blacksmith's shop. He could fix iron. Use to use old irons at the fire places. He can put hamners and [inaudible] I have Siler 25 a shovel now long handle, real that I always beat [inaudible] with what he made. I had, I guess it's still at home. I: You've had it for how many years? LS: I don' t know. I don't know. Of course I was married to my husband fifty-four years and he passed four months later. I've had it every since then. I: That is quite a shovel. LS: It's a long hammer and you just put it down in the barrel and keep it nice and clean and you chop the [inaudible] in that [inaudible] with that. It’s real sharp. It's about that wide. I still had it when I left home. It's in the closet on the back porch. I: Was there anyone in the community who was talented, say in singing? LS: Singing? I: Music? LS: Musical. The [inaudible] were. They didn't go out to sing. They were very musical and they sing beautiful. I: Was there a midwife? LS: That's all we had. Midwifes. I: No [inaudible]? LS: There's midwifes they call Lucy [inaudible] Josephine, and my mother Hannah Perry. I: Your mother was a midwife? LS: Correct. There was that many midwives. I: Did she pass it on to you? LS: No. I: You didn't want to be. LS: I went with Josephine way after my mother and I had children myself. I never did. She wanted to show me how. when they cut that umbilical I’m not gonna fool with no umbilical. So, Siler 26 I didn’t never. I didn't care for it. But she showed me how to cut it and tie it. I watched her. I’ll never fool with it. I: You'll never with that anymore. LS: But they were good and the child could be turned and aunt [inaudible] was [inaudible]. She'd take her hand and then those gloves like they do now and she could press on this side and turn that child. That’s right. She didn't go ahead and cut you open and take it like that. I: She turned it from the outside. LS: She turned it from the outside and just kept on pushing and pushing. She pushed with one hand and be turning the child with the other. She told me. I didn't stand and watch her. I: Say once was enough. LS: What aunt [inaudible] showed ne was a [inaudible]. I: Can you think of others who have skills long ago? LS: No, I don't except one's that I told you. Aunt Lear that lived on [inaudible], that's Gert's, down her mother. She was a midwife. She would go to white. I don't of any blacks but she take care of the white and of course they'd have a doctor with them. I know Dr. Hill said he'd rather be with [inaudible] than with another a doctor. So, he didn' t have nothing to do. She did all the work. I: OH! LS: That's what she did. He was there getting the pay. I: How were the midwifes payed. LS: I payed five dollars. I: Oh, I wish. Five dollars for a baby. LS: It's about a thousand now. I: That's about right. LS: I had a midwife. I had a doctor in when my second girl was born. I had a doctor. I was living in [inaudible] and when she was born of course she was born time he got here because Dr. Wood is a black doctor from Knoxville. Had me to walk. I first started out walking a quarter a Siler 27 mile and went on to half a mile then walked a mile. That night that I walked that mile, I [inaudible] that baby. I: Now, we know. LS: So, when he came that morning, my husband ran and got him. The child's head was already started. That was the only doctor they had there. When my baby girl was born, it was about the same thing. My husband was standing there when she was born, waiting on the doctor until he got there. My husband was with me. I: After the midwifes can you think of other people who were talented, who made a contribution to the community in Murphy? LS: No, I just can't. It'll probably come to me after you’re gone. Well, we can always call back, right? I: Do you think that the role of the black man has changed from then until now? LS: Quite a bit. I: In which ways? LS: Well, you know, we use to. I know I went one time to this farmers and there was a white lady stayed there and we'd always know her, going up to where my daddy worked. Mrs. [inaudible], she sent for me to come by. When I got to, when I started I said Mrs. [inaudible] just sent me. I said please. Yes, but you have to go around the back. I said it all looks like the back to me. That's just what I told him. So, I went on around there because I lives just as good as she did. I went around and told Mrs. [inaudible]. She just wanted to talk with me because all we kids would always stop and going to where my daddy worked, up there at the Dickie farm. We'd always stop and talk with her because she was a white lady like this. She didn't have much to do with the people of Murphy. She wasn't from there and she liked black people and treated them as if they were black people. She liked me and I went to see her. She wanted to see me. She said, "I didn't want nothing; I just wanted to see you." She died a little while after that. I: Do you thing the role of maid, cook, and waiter has changed? LS: No, a maid? I: Being a maid, cook, waiter, luckily you could be employed by the railroad. Has that changed much? LS: I really don't know because I 've never been around too much. I: What about the jobs today? Do the blacks still fulfill those roles? Siler 28 LS: No. They have. Now, I have one daughter now not a maid but she works at the bank, granddaughter. She works at the bank. My granddaughter-in-law, she was the first to work at the bank in Murphy. She went to Greensboro, North Carolina and she worked there. Her husband had a good job there. They went there and they give her a good recommendation from Murphy to there. So, she worked there a while. But she's back home now and she went and signed up for a job like that in the [inaudible]. She wants a job so she can be with her family. I: What do you think enabled the role to change? LS: What do I think? Dr. Martin Luther King. I: Dr. Martin Luther King. LS: He changed it all. I: What do you remember specifically about that time? LS: There were so many things that happened then but you know at that particular time we weren't [inaudible] here in Murphy until he came. Then there were just so many things, different. We have that little old school right outside the highway, no place hardly for the children to play. But now they have a large place, it's a mix school. That's a change. I didn't think that would happen. I'm very proud because just anyone could come in and teach school, then children wouldn't get nowhere. I said voting. I: Voting and school. Do you think or would you say the Civil Rights Movement? LS: Was quite a help. I: Well, let’s go back a little further. What other historical events do you remember such as The Depression? You must remember that. What do you remember? LS: Oh, my, we didn't have job. I wasn't washing and ironing or nothing like that then. I didn't have a dime. If we hadn't made that little stuff in the ground, I don't know how we, because we didn't have any money. He'd go around. He very talented but yet he'd go around build fences. They just asked him to do little things like that so he could get some money. He had a Chevrolet car and he sold that and he brought some outside food besides what I had canned up. Just little things like that. That Depression, I hope I never have another one like that again. That was some kind of Depression. It was of course you can't remember it and you can't either but I do. I: So, times were extremely hard? Siler 29 LS: Then when President Roosevelt got in, it got to better. He give them jobs. They worked on the road and things like that. I: Was your husband, did he ever work for the WPA? LS: No, he didn't have to work for the WPA. At that time our President Roosevelt was in, he was back at the dry cleaners. He was also a carpenter you know. I: Your husband was a carpenter? LS: Yes. I: What did he build? LS: He helped to build houses. Mr. Paine, a man that ran the store across the river he helped. He and his daddy built houses around quite a bit. That's were his daddy got a lot of names, building houses. I: Were any of your sons in World War II, Korean, [inaudible]? LS: My son? I: Yes, ma’am? LS: My son. I: Was? LS: In Korean. I: In Korean? LS: He's the one that went to school off the GI Bill. I: He's now a teacher? Is that what you told me? LS: Yeah, he's taught but he is a dean at the Wayne County College in Goldsboro. My daughter that I sent to [inaudible] she went to [inaudible] TC . She taught right there. She served right over here in Murphy for fourteen years but she's retired now. I: Do you remember the period when you were given stamps to buy your goods? LS: Yes, buy the books. Siler 30 I: Books? What else could you buy with those stamps? LS: There were stamps for food stamps but I never did have to have them. I: Why not? LS: We worked. I: So, there were jobs for you? LS: I washed and ironed. I didn't never have to go out there, outside my home until after all my children grew up. Then we were headed home and then I can go and stay about as long as we wanted to and been on time and quit when I wanted to. I: Do you remember when welfare started? LS: No, I don't remember. I don't remember it. I remember people being on welfare. I even cooked at the school from my house, across the highway. The school is up there. I cooked [inaudible] for ten dollars a week for teaching and it was the food was for the children and I thought they should have it. Very little would we get. So, I take [inaudible] for nothing. I did that for nothing, nine months. Cooked up there and they furnished everything, like beans and apples, all those things. But you had to have soda and salt and baking powder. You know what I would do. I would sell a plate to the boys for twenty-five cents and get my soda and sugar and things like that. Sometimes I'd make rolls. I’d make a big long roll and what I charged them was ten cents a week for their meals. That was in order to help to get things. So, I did it for nothing. Yeah, I did that for nothing. She wanted ten dollars but I[inaudible]. I did the same thing when the association was at the church and she wanted money for the church to pay her for cooking. I don't know why she wanted so much because she wasn't that good a cook. I know I'm a good cook. I can't get up by myself in no way. I'm perfectly helpless. I have to wait for them to help me. I: Can you think of anything else about your life that you would like to share with us? LS: I don't know of anything about my life. I just[inaudible] hard and try in the best way I could to bring my children up right. [inaudible] old fire place for the family prayer but as for my life in my home I'm not ashamed of it. Oh, no! I'm proud of my home and life I lived for my children. I: Your wonderful. Thank you.