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Interview with Kim Woodard transcript

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  • 1 Subject: Kim Woodard (Nurse at VA Hospital, PTSD) Interviewer: Allie Todd Date: June 1, 2016 AT: Could you please state your name for the record? KW: Kim Woodard. AT: And my name is Allie Todd, and do you know you’re being recorded? KW: Yes. AT: So we can get started with some background information like your name, where you were born, and where you grew up. KW: My maiden name is Collins, so it’s Kimberly Joe Collins Woodard, and I was born in Asheville. Moved here when I was six months old. And moved away a couple of times, but basically been here most of my life. AT: Is your family from around here? KW: Well, we came here when I was six months old, but my parents were both from Asheville. AT: And how did your family influence your nursing career choice? KW: None. My mother was a teacher. My dad worked for the government. He was a Farmer’s Home Administration county agent. My grandmother was a teacher, and I don’t know what happened. When I was two my grandmother bought me a nurse’s, or I guess then it was a doctor’s kit, and I just started doctoring the dogs, and I been doing that since I was two. AT: So, you worked at Harris before going to the VA in Franklin? KW: Correct. AT: How long did you work at Harris? KW: Twenty-nine years. AT: What are some challenges you faced at Harris that are different from working at the VA? KW: Well, the biggest challenge was that you, when I first went to work there it was a community hospital. Therefore, it was non-profit, community, everybody knew each other. The staff was all about community, and everybody lived here. The doctors were involved in the community. When we first got bought out by Carolina’s Medical in Charlotte, everything 2 changed because it was no longer considered a community hospital. We were owned. We were told what to do. Healthcare changed, and the financing changed, and insurance companies changed, and it became much more about the financial part of the hospital than actually the quality of care that take care of patients. That’s changed nationwide, it’s not just here, and mostly that’s been influenced by reimbursement by insurance companies. The VA is all about no matter what it takes we take care of the patient. And there’s no real cost involved as far as, whatever that patient needs we do it. And I actually just fell into it, and I can truly say that the Lord sent me there because I would’ve never left the hospital if this hadn’t all happened to me. And it’s just a wonderful place to work as far as you feel like you can just take care of the patient. You don’t have to worry about the financial end of it, per se. AT: Let’s see. What led to you being recognized as one of North Carolina’s top one hundred nurses? KW: Well, I work with some wonderful people, and one of the secretaries just took it upon herself…I’m a very compulsive person, I’m very anal as far as everything has to be done right, done now, and done quickly. And I love veterans, I always have, and because of my experience in that, I just really go above and beyond I guess to take care of people and do things I don’t have to do. And she is a retired Army person, and so she just took it upon… She can write really well. And she took a lot of all the things that I do, that I’ve always done, and made it sound like I walk on water, which I don’t. But, she just decided she was going to get me that award or die, so she did. AT: How has this award affected you and your professional career? KW: Well, I’ve been, I’ve had a lot of recognition about it, and it’s made me very proud. And it’s very humbling, but it makes me realize that I wish everyone that worked as hard as I have for forty years could be recognized that way because it’s a long career and it’s a hard career that’s busy and takes its toll. But it’s nice to be recognized for what you do. AT: Could you describe a normal day in your job now? KW: We have scheduled patients, and I do a lot of education. We have a lot of diabetics, high blood pressure, a lot of chronic disease, COPD, things with lungs. And I do a lot of patient teaching. I do some procedures, like if people have ports, you know, when we have chemo-therapy? We flush those, we do a lot of injections, a lot of medication teaching, a lot medication giving. We help them get consults to go to orthopedics or cardiology, help them when they’re getting out of the hospital to have all the stuff they need. I do a lot of stuff on the phone. It’s more phone than hands on a lot of days, which is good and bad. I mean, if you can help them out, especially, you know, we have a very older generation in our clinic, so the less they have to leave the house the better. AT: What kind of challenges do you face most while nursing at the VA? KW: Well, truthfully, the biggest challenge we have is narcotics. We have in the past because military people typically have a lot more orthopedic injuries than the normal population. We 3 have a very large percentage that are on narcotics. And, I’m sure you see all the stuff on TV and all that, and we are in the process of trying to lower the amount of narcotics that they take, and it’s very painful, and they get very angry. That’s our biggest challenge is trying to people to either get off of it totally or lower the dose that they’re taking. So it’s really hard. AT: Yeah. What are the most common problems when treating veterans? Like their problems? KW: The biggest one is one you hear about, is the PTSD, where they’ve been in wartime and they have a lot of nightmares. They have a lot of… And they can be ninety-years-old and still have that from World War Two. The, you know? Almost everybody that’s ever been in combat has it a little bit, but a lot of them have it worse than others. AT: How is someone diagnosed with PTSD? KW: We, well I’ve actually had patients where they come in they’re really angry, they’re argumentative, they just fly off the handle, and if you just handle it like it’s… It would start at my level where I’d say, “Have you ever thought about the fact you may have PTSD? And do you ever…” And then you start asking a series of questions that, “Do you have this, this, and this?” And then they’ll say yes or no, and then at that point you refer it to their physician, and the physician will send them to mental health. And then they have a sit-down session with a psychologist, and then at that point they’re either diagnosed or not. And then from there they go to see a psychiatrist if they need to. AT: How has this treatment evolved? KW: It probably really started with the Iraq War. I think it was a little bit in Desert Strom, but it really escalated when we went back this time, in this current situation that we’re in. And a lot of that’s involved because in Vietnam, people… A lot of people survived the Iraq and Afghanistan War that wouldn’t have survived in Vietnam or any war prior to that. They’re injuries are treatable, and there’s medics right away, and they’re evaced [evacuated] right away, and a lot of them live that wouldn’t have lived before. And so, the Vietnam Era a lot of them would get infections or died before they ever got to a medical, big medical facility, but because of the location of where Iraq and Afghanistan are they’re flown to Germany. So they have a much faster rate of being fixed, per se, but they have a whole lot more injuries. And we see a lot that have head injuries, you know, you hear the TVI, was a Traumatic Brain Injury, and they don’t, you don’t recover from that. And they have a lot of, you know, like loss of limbs and things more, more so than some of the other wars too. AT: How has the public perception of PTSD changed throughout your career? KW: I think people, I think when guys used to say they had that people were like, “Yeah, whatever. Get over it.” I think that there was a lot of apathy about it because the people didn’t understand. And then, the more that there’s been on TV, in the public eye, and they talk about it, and the VA especially has said, “We’re going to take this and run with it and treat people.” The more public awareness there is of it, the more people have respected the fact that there really are people that truly can’t help how messed up they are. 4 AT: Do you guys do a lot of education for PTSD? KW: Yeah, yeah. AT: How had counseling people with PTSD or other illnesses affected you? KW: For me, it’s really rewarding. I’ve had a patient who said, you know, that basically I saved his life because I really recognized that I thought that’s what it was, and he was real resistant to it because he was a Vietnam vet. Vietnam vets are very non-trusting, a lot of them because they were treated so horribly when they came home. But we just saw each other a lot for various reasons, blood pressures and all kinds of other things, and every time I saw him I’d bring it up. And then finally I just said, “Look, I really think this is what you have. Can we pursue it?” And he finally, finally agreed to go and see, and now he just is beside himself how messed he really was and didn’t admit, acknowledge it. He was just angry and he lost jobs, and he lost wives, and he lost houses, and, you know, pretty much had a really messed up life. And now he’s much better, back on track of getting his life together. AT: What are some of the responsibilities of the VA, as a whole? KW: The only responsibility of the VA is to treat every veteran that’s ever been in the military. That’s really their only responsibility. AT: What are the specific responsibilities of the Franklin Outpatient Clinic, like versus the one that’s connected to Asheville? KW: We are a primary care clinic, so we’re like a doctor’s office. They come to us for an exam every year, and then they come to us when they’re sick. They come to us for like basic care, if they have to have surgery, or they have to have emergency care, or they have to have urgent care. We do labs at Franklin, but we have to ship them by courier so, if they need immediate labs they- all that stuff has to go to Asheville. Anything that’s high-tech or more than like you would go to a doctor’s office for, that’s what we do in Franklin. We do doctor’s office work, technically. AT: How is working with the general public different than working with veterans? KW: Well, you know, it’s different because when you go to a doctor you pay for it. And, you have expectations of, “Okay, I’m paying you and I really want to know what’s wrong.” The veterans feel the same way, but they also feel like it’s an entitlement because they feel like, “I served my country and I deserve this because I have done what you’ve told me to do, and now it’s time for you to pay me back by giving me medical care I need. Because what ha-.” A lot of what happened to them is because of what they did in wartime. There’s much more of a feeling that… I guess entitlement is the right word. They deserve this care. Whereas when you go to a doctor, if that doctor doesn’t like you, or says, “I can’t treat you,” or “You won’t follow my rules,” then they can say, “You’re out of here.” We can’t say, we can’t do that. We have to take care of everybody. 5 AT: What is your favorite part of your day-to-day job? KW: Truthfully? Truthfully, I love working with men because they’re just so open-book and don’t care, and don’t, don’t really get upset like women do. Some women can be a challenge sometimes, and I- I can say that. But men are much more, “Let’s just do this. Let’s just get this fixed.” They do what you tell them most of the time. I don’t know, I just really enjoy that population, and I - even when I was in the Army. I love their environment of their structure. We do it this way. There’s rules, and there’s a pecking order, you know. And it just makes things operate a whole lot easier. AT: What did you do in the Army? KW: I was a… Well, actually, it was weird. I was a labor and delivery nurse, so I delivered babies in the Army. AT: Wow. Tell me about that. Yeah, how does that work? KW: Well, it was different because see, you’re taking care of the wives. Well, now there are of course, a lot of women in the military too. So, you would have military people having babies, but you took care of a lot of the wives. And so when Desert Storm happened that’s where I went was to Kentucky, and we had to… Which was so sad because there was these women, a lot of them having their first baby, and their husbands were overseas, and they were alone, and didn’t have family, didn’t have help. And it’s just really, really heart wrenching to see somebody have a baby when they want their husband there so bad and they’re not there. AT: Was that one of the biggest challenges working with that versus working with veterans? KW: Yeah, absolutely. Because you know, they’re…they’re there to support their wife or husband, whoever’s gone, and all that, but it’s still very difficult for them. And they have to keep everything together, and take care of the kids, and keep the family going, and pay the bills, and do everything while he or she’s gone all over, you know, half way across the world, so. AT: Did you travel around a lot, or were you just in Kentucky? KW: No, I was just in Kentucky. Well, when I was on active-duty I was in Denver. I stayed there two years and went to California for a year then, got out and stayed in the Reserves and that’s how I ended up in Desert Storm because I was in the Reserves when we got called up. So, I got to travel a little bit, but not like some people. I never went overseas, which is what I wanted to do. AT: How has nursing changed over the years, from each, like, different place that you’ve been? KW: The biggest change is that when you used to go in the hospital when I very first started, people… we’d have patients that would stay for a month, just because they’d broke their leg or because they had heart disease, or, you know. And then, in the 80s, they started this new thing called DRGs where, which is what they do now. The insurance company says, “This is what 6 you’re going…You’re going to have your tonsils out. This is what we’re going to pay. We don’t care how much it costs this is what we’re going to pay.” And when that started, then they’d say, “When you have your tonsils out you’re going to get to stay for twelve hours in the hospital, and then you got to go home.” And that’s what started the whole push of get people out of the hospital instead of keep them in the hospital. Which in some ways is not so bad, but in a lot ways you sent a lot sick people home that came back frequently, and that’s not good. It’s changed a lot. AT: Let’s see. How has the recent controversy with the VA in media affected your job? KW: Well, it’s kind of heartwarming for us because the VA in Asheville, which we are attached to so that includes us, is we’re ranked second in the country. So, we know that what we do is right, and we do a lot of things different, because every time we have an inspector come that’s from out of our region they say, “Gosh, we wish we did this everywhere else.” We’ve got some really smart people that have some de- developed some programs that really help as far as efficiency and stuff. And we’ve never had people on wait lists like what they talked about in Arizona. We may have a list of people that say, “These people need appointments within the next thirty days,” and we know they’re on there, and we schedule them. But we have never had the problems, and we’ve never had an instant where we tried to hide the, those numbers to make it look good. Because you can take numbers and do anything you want to with them and make them look good. And we’ve never done that, but we had a lot of veterans come in and say, “We’re really sick of hearing this. We want to know who we can write a letter to because we want to tell them how wonderful you guys are here, and how well you treat us, and.” We had a lot of, a lot of public support, which was really great. Because, if they don’t have something like that to fight for, they might not say anything. So, actually it was a good thing. AT: What are the differences between treating the older war veterans and treating the newer war veterans? KW: Well, Dickie and I talk about this all the time. Those World War Two vets, they’re… That generation is just… We’re never going to see that again. They’re toughest men that have ever been. I mean, they’ve been through some of the most horrible things in the world, and they came home, went in a parade, and the next day they went back to work. And they never talked about it. A lot of them never have talked about it, ever. But they’re the kindest, sweetest, just really appreciate life people that you’ll ever meet. Just very… And I don’t know if it’s the age as much as it is the era, but they don’t complain, and they don’t say, “Oh, didn’t I have a terrible time.” And they… They’re… Basically, PTSD is pretty much non-existent in that group, and it’s a real interesting study to try to figure out why. Because they saw some horrible things, just like any other war veteran. And in Vietnam, I think they weren’t allowed to it, I think that’s why a lot of them are very messed up because, when they came home nobody listened to them about, “We don’t want to hear about what happened to you guys. We don’t want to hear what you think we ought to do because…” I think we were just so ashamed of that war or something, I don’t know, ashamed of what they came to when they came home. And they’re just now starting to really help those guys and pick up the pieces. Try to get programs, like now, we have an Agent Orange program, and all the things that they have been involved in, but it took a lot of years for that to happen. 7 AT: What is that program? KW: Agent Orange means that you were… They had a chemical that they sprayed where, from air planes that when it landed on the trees or anything green, basically, anything that was a foliage, green grass, trees, whatever, it killed it. Instantly. So that they could see if there are people, the enemy, underneath it. But when they sprayed all that they sprayed it on top of people too. And the people that got sprayed with that chemical have a lot of dia- a lot of diabetes, cancer, all kinds of lung issues. We have a lot of those vets that have lung issues, and it’s from that chemical. So, if they can prove that they were fighting in areas that they were sprayed then they get more benefits. And they get a pay for that. And they get Medicare… Their medic… Their medical care in the VA is they don’t have to pay and co-pays, they don’t have to pay for their medications, that kind of thing. AT: What is some of the hardest things you saw when you were either doing it for active soldiers or veterans now? KW: The hardest thing, well… When I was in California, which is kind of interesting, we were in a base that was way out in the desert. And this would’ve been in ’84, which nobody had ever even heard of Iraq or anything before that, and we were doing all the training for that. And these guys would come in the ER, because, we weren’t very busy there so the labor and delivery people went and helped in the ER a lot. And we’d have these guys come in in these funky uniforms, you know, like, “Why are they that color? And why are we doing this? And why in the world are we doing all this training in the desert because, where are we going to go in the desert?” Well there was somebody way back there that knew either that this was going to happen or…something’s going on because it took years, but, you know. Six years later, we’re going to Desert Storm, so… There definitely was some inklings in the, I guess, the Pentagon about it. But, we had a lot of really bad injuries out there as far as people getting run over with tanks, and… You know, I, being a labor and delivery nurse at that point in time, I’d never worked in an ER before. So, it was really traumatic, because, you know, these were just kids your age. And it was, it was really hard, because, you know, their families’ who knows where? That was a hard place to see that kind of injury, but… It was hard at Fort Campbell as far as you know, I said the dads being away from the women because we’d have, you know, babies that would be sick, or babies that would die, or we had a couple of the mothers that died. And, you know, their overseas and that’s always a horrible situation because you then you got to call the commanders and tell them to bring them home. It’s just a horrible situation. But other than that, mostly I feel like it… I feel like I helped a lot more people than I felt sad. AT: Mm hmm. What was your most rewarding? Or do you have a like, one specific story that has been your most rewarding, you think? KW: Oh wow. AT: Or a couple of them. 8 KW: Well, let me tell you, this is a weird one. We were… When I was in Denver, the hospital there is an old TB hospital, so it’s was big open wards with big open windows, because that was back in the, I guess the 40s when everybody had tuberculosis. And it started snowing one night when me and this little sergeant were working. Everybody left, we were the only ones there, we get everybody delivered, and we have to stay because nobody can get to the hospital because it snowed like forty inches that night. AT: Wow. KW: So, the next day we were rigging up the phone so we can drag into a bed somewhere and sleep and that kind of thing. And so, we have to basically talk a guy over the phone on how to deliver his wife because they can’t get out… AT: Oh goodness. KW: We can’t get out, the ambulances can’t get out. Nothing could happen, so… That was probably the most exciting, rewarding thing that we had to do because me and this sergeant had to talk him through it over the phone, and he did it and everything was fine. AT: Wow. KW: And then about, I guess it was about twelve hours later they finally got to her and brought her to the hospital, but everything was fine, so… AT: Wow. KW: That was pretty exciting. AT: Yeah. If you could offer suggestions for improvements in the VA or in medical care in general, what would they be? KW: Well, the biggest problem we have is we don’t have enough providers to take care of the patients. Each one of our doctors has twelve-hundred patients. And so… AT: Wow. KW: …we don’t see all those, you know, there’s always people on the role that kind of drop off, or don’t come, or that kind of thing, but we probably have a huge percentage of that that are active patients. And so, you just feel like there’s never enough hours in the day. You can’t get everything done you want done. You can’t spend as much time with each patient that you want because there’s just not enough time. And, if I had a wish, I’d wish that they could definitely decrease that number of patients that each doctor had, because we could do so much more with them if we knew that was all we had to do for the day is just take… I mean, if we had five-hundred patients we could take care of them perfect, but you can’t do that with twelve-hundred. But we do a great job with what we’ve got. So, in general, and that’s happening across the board nationwide too, there’s not enough doctors to take care of the number of people that need a 9 doctor. And so it’s hard because… And I guess this is another thing that maybe it’d be interesting for you guys to study is the difference between socialized medicine and you know, what we have now is like what would they would take care of you is just primary medicine. Socialized medicine basically means that you don’t have to pay for it. Well, that’s what the military is, is you’re in a socialized medicine system where the docs are in the military, everybody you treat is in the military, you know, your family’s treated by the same people. But you wait in line, you wait on the doc, you wait to have your turn, but everybody’s treated, and everybody gets great care in the military. And there’s a lot of people that fight that saying, “If we go to socialized medicine people die because they’re waiting to have their gall bladder out, or people die because they’re waiting on heart surgery.” Well, there’s a way to expedite people that are really urgent, but technically the VA is a socialized medicine, in the sense that we have this list of patients, this is who we take care of, and we do it in the order we can. But everybody gets taken care of, and everybody gets taken care of very well. The VA has some of the initial programs that have happened in medicine, they have the greatest equipment, they have updated things that sometimes the civilian world doesn’t have. But people still want to go to their doctor when they want it. But the reason you get to go to your doctor when you want to is because you call them and they say, “Well, if we have a spot we’ll take you.” But you’re paying for it. And you can choose to go to a doctor in Asheville because they’re going to accept your insurance. So, you can jump around all over the place, but is that really good care, because you’ve got six doctors? And in the VA, everybody talks to each other. You know, your medical record in the VA, like, very frequently we have people traveling and they’ll end up in the hospital in Arizona. So, the hospital in Arizona posts their records, we can see those records. We can still, in this country, take care of anybody that’s in our system. So, it’s a great system I think. Whereas, if you go to Florida and break your leg, that doctor is not going to have any idea of where you came from, or who your doctor is, or where they are. AT: Have you found that that works better than when you worked at Harris? KW: Absolutely. AT: Do you like the way that works? KW: Absolutely. Because whatever they have done in Asheville we can immediately see their labs, we can immediately see their x-rays, we can see all the stuff that’s done in Asheville that afternoon. So, it’s very efficient and helps our docs because they can look at it and say, “Oh okay, well then this is what we need to do next.” So, it’s very efficient. AT: Do you have anything else you’d like to add to this interview, any stories that you’d like to tell or anything? [Increasing background noise] KW: I’m sorry. AT: Oh you’re fine. 10 KW: Let me shut that because I don’t want you to record the lawnmower. I can tell a hundred stories when nobody asks me. Gosh. You know, I guess a lot of people ask me sometimes like, “Are you… Were you…” Well, it was very traumatic when I had to leave my kids, but I felt like when we all went to Desert Storm that that’s where we were supposed to be for whatever reason. And I’ve always felt like that if you listen to the Lord he’ll send you where you need to go. And I never understood that, but in the big picture I realize there was a reason we were all there and that the things that happened, happened. And you’ll realize in your life, you may be one small piece of what you say or do for one person, but I’ve had so many people come back to me that I honestly don’t remember, and they’ll say, “You know, you were there when my baby was born.” And of course, they’ll say, “Don’t you remember?” But they’ll never forget that person that was there when they had their first baby born. Or they’ll say, “You know, you were so sweet to me when I got put to sleep because I remember you looking at me and telling me everything was going to be okay.” And when you see those people years from now, and you feel like, “I do that every day with everybody I take care of.” But that one little thing may mean the most to somebody that’s terrified. So, I just feel like I’ve been very blessed to have a career where I helped a lot of people. I feel like I’ve done good for people as best I could. And I’ve always just been really fortunate at where I’ve landed. I’ve been there for a reason, so… As far as stories go, man. I can… These little old World War Two vets are just, they have places in my heart. They are the most wonderful, giving, gracious men. They just are so thankful for every day they’ve been on this earth after what they’ve been through. And I think they’re what really keeps me going some days. I hate to see, and this is not directed at you, but the young generation is just… We’re going to lose that ability of focusing on people… Like, what you’re doing today is such a wonderful thing. Kids sit and, I’ve watched kids sit at a table and not talk to each other because they’re sitting there texting on a phone, and if we don’t learn to continually engage like this we’re, you know, it’s just, we’re going to lose so much information and so much interaction with people that… You know, your grandparents, get them on a recorder and record their stories and stuff because there’s just so much stuff that we’re going to lose if people don’t continue to interact, and it just really worries me. I’m old and I can say that. So, I don’t know. I feel, it’s kind of scary, I’m thinking about retiring in three years, and I talk about and I’m real excited because I get tired, but then I think, “Oh my gosh.” It’s like the end of your life, you know, a huge part of your life that you have, and what will I do, but I can think of a million things I can do to help people, but…” AT: How long have you been nursing exactly? KW: This year will be thirty-seven years. AT: Wow. KW: So, a long time. AT: Where did you go to school? I totally forgot to ask you. KW: Chapel Hill. AT: Oh, right. Yeah. 11 KW: Yeah. Unknown Speaker: You all ought to do a secret handshake… [inaudible] KW: I know. Teacher her all that stuff. What do you want to major in? AT: International journalism. KW: Oh, wow. That’ll be good. That’s really good. See, you can write about this. Yeah, that’s wonderful. Good luck. AT: Thank you. I’m very excited. KW: It’s a great school. It’s big, but it’s great. AT: Yeah. KW: Yeah, when I left here to go to Chapel Hill, I told my daddy I was never coming back. AT: I say that too. KW: Yeah, that’s what happens. AT: Yeah. KW: You never know. You’ll land in the right place. Can you think of any other questions? AT: Let me double check. I think we got them all. Unless there’s anything you want to add? KW: I can’t think of anything. So, the focus of your history is just… Is this like, to learn to do interviews, or…? AT: It’s to get more of like, the people’s stories in Jackson County because like, and to record what they have to say and what they’ve been through, and kind of how everything works together. This is my second year doing it. KW: That’s awesome. AT: Yeah. KW: Well, that’s one thing that’s been wonderful to me is to get involved with Tommy’s group because I think I’m probably the only person in that group that’s not been in combat, per se. AT: Yeah. 12 KW: But they asked me to come, number one because I’m a nurse, and number two because I was in Desert Storm. But it’s a totally different sector. I don’t ever put myself in that combat sleeve because that’s not even close. It’s been really neat to get to know those people. AT: What is that, exactly? KW: It’s called, Unseen Scars. It’s a veterans group that’s, all of those guys are combat vets. So, they’ve all been to war, and from… Tommy and another guy are Vietnam Era, down to, there’s a kid in there that’s like twenty-two. And he was an Iraqi guy, but… And they’re kind of all in between. I don’t think there’s anybody from Korean War. They would probably be too old. It’s a really neat group. And they do forums, like we did that at Western, and we’ve done it at the library here. So, we’ve done a couple of forums just to present to the public, you know, how hard it is. Mostly, the biggest thing they talk about how hard it is to come home. If you happen to watch the American Sniper movie, the way he backs in a corner, and the way he watches the cars all around him and all the time, they all do that, that’s real. Pretty much everything that was in that movie is real, as far as what they suffer from when they come home. AT: Wow. KW: So, it’s something we can’t relate to. We’ve never been that scared. AT: Yeah. KW: Right. I don’t want to be that scared. AT: Me either. KW: Right. I think people forget how fearful it would be to be in those kinds of situations. AT: Yeah. That would be very scary. Alright, I think that is all.
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