Southern Appalachian Digital Collections

Western Carolina University (20) View all

Interview with Fred Hinson

  • record image
2 / 2
Item
  • Fred Hinson, who joined Western Carolina University as a faculty in 1966, discusses his interactions with Josephina Niggli both at Western and socially, his impressions of Niggli as a person, her plays that were shown at the Little Theatre, and the re-naming of the Little Theatre as the Niggli Theatre.
  • Hilary Lindler: This is Hilary Lindler, and I am interviewing ... Fred Hinson: Fred Hinson. HL: This is October 28t\ 2009. The first thing I would like to ask you Dr. Hinson, is I would like to know how did you know Ms. Niggli, and around what year or year range did you know her? FH: I came to Western in 1966, and one of the first people I met once I started teaching here in the fall of 2000 ... I mean 1966 ... was Josephina. My first introduction to Josephina was at a faculty meeting. All faculty at that time, we were required to attend a general faculty meeting and my first contact with Josephina was she was handing out 3x5 cards. This was at the theater, before it became known as the Niggli Theater, where we were having our general faculty meetings. President Reed was there that day, and she introduced herself as Josephina Niggli, and this was a theater in which she oversaw ans it was her baby. So, when we went in and all she got up, she was the first on to get up, to speak and said "This theater ... you're not to smoke in this theater at all. You are not to leave any litter in this theater. If you bring litter in here or you bring cigarettes in here to smoke, you are to take all your garbage out with you," basically. Then she said, you know, "I'm the one that keeps the attendance of everybody attending the general faculty meeting." She said "Write your name on these cards, pass then down to the end of the row, and I will take them up." Then she said "President Reed, you can continue your running of the general faculty meeting." So, that was my introduction to Josephina. The next thing that happened was, I didn't know that she ... that day assumed that she was a non-smoker by coming across like she did and just really coming down on everybody. "You're not to smoke in this theater." So about a week later or so I saw her in her office, and it was just billows of smoke in her office 'cause she was a heavy smoker, and a chain smoker, but I didn't realize that. Normally I pick up when people smoke because their clothes, their skin, and all you smelled it. That day there was so many people filing in and all I didn't pay that much attention, but when I walked by that office then I said you know this is really unusual for her to get up and talk about no smoking in the theater, then I walk by her office [laugh] and there's all of this smoke and she's smoking. I saw her a couple of times after that and she always, basically, had a cigarette in her hand when I saw her. She always drove a Cadillac. She would not drive any other car except a Cadillac. She would never put gas in her Cadillac. I did business here in Cullowhee at the Cullowhee Exxon at a particular point in time and they loved Josephina cause she would come in, and they would gas her car, and she would always tip them. She would always tip them, so she was well liked in anyplace that she went to eat or or do anything like that she tipped people very nicely. She was always nicely dressed. No pro ... you know sometimes she wasn't professionally dressed like you would see a lot of females, but she wore loud colors. Most of the time when I saw her- bright green, pink, red, orange type stuff- but she wore basically South West type colors when I saw her. I got to know her even a little bit better because I became friends with Mary Wayte who was a professor over at the College of Education at the time. HL: Wade, like W-A-FH: Wayte like W-A-Y-T-E . HL: Ok. FH: Mary Wayte. She taught, and Mary and I became good friends. Her husband was a Theta ... was a member of the Theta Xi fraternity, and I began to work with Theta Xi fraternity on the campus right after I got here and that's the weird reason that I got to know Mary. Mary was very close friends with Josephina, and many a time through my first year here they both served sort of as a mentor to me in that I would be invited over to Mary's house, she would fix drinks and meals. Once in a while I was invited to Josephina's house, which is right up here behind the Methodist Church, 1 and I never went any place in their housings except the living room or the dining room at both places. Josephina always had a drink before the evening meal, or a couple of drinks before he evening meal. She always had her cigarettes, and when I would go and be a guest at all I had to endure the smoke and all of that situation. So, I got to know Josephina on a friendly basis. I was never a close friend. I would never classify myself as a close friend like I would with Mary Wayte, because I had a more closer relationship with Mary. Then t he other thing was, after Josephina died, my wife had gone to her house to look at stuff for sale. Josephina had this music cabinet, you know where you take sheet music and all, and she had this cabinet that she kept sheet music in or her writings in etcetera. And so, my wife said of all the things in the house, she said "I want that." She said "I'm gonna bid on this." Well another good friend of Mary Wayte's and Josephina was Jack Barnett, here on campus. He taught in the College of Business. So Jack that day, the auction day hat we went after Josephina's death when they had this auction, my wife and Jack got in a bidding war for this music cabinet. I about went bonkers because the price kept going up and my wife kept bidding because she said that she was going to buy that, that she didn't care what it cost cause she really wanted it. So finally Jack said, "Ok Gloria you can have it," and we wrote check for the music cabinet and I have it right now in my house. My wife ... it was not I the best of shape when my wide bought it, but she had it refinished and all add it's a beautiful piece of furniture. And so, that's a piece of furniture form Josephina's house that we have. HL: Just out of curiosity you said because of the bidding war ... do you mind me asking how big the bidding war got? I Cullowhee United Methodist Church FH: Well you know this was back, oh gosh, at that time it would be something like fifteen hundred dollars for a piece of furniture today. It's be something like fifteen hundred dollars, but I think they got up to around ... J think it was up to four hundred or four hundred fifty dollars that it was bid. If you multiply that about three times you come up with about fifteen hundred dollars for what the piece of furniture would cost. HL: So ifyou FH: lfyou bought it today . HL: Yeah. FH: Right. So that's some of the things. And Josephina, I can always say she was very friendly, she was very nice. When she put on a production, it was professional. Everything was right by the book. You didn't see any flops. You didn't see any ... people wouldn't be put on the stage if they didn't know the parts and etcetera. She only .. she was always a good writer. She wrote many pieces for the student newspaper here, pieces tor the local newspaper, things like that while she was living and all. "And she always, l always .... she always drove around a new Cadillac. She almost got a new Cadillac every year and it was a signature. She had the top-of-the-line Cadillac. She loved students. She loved students and she really ... in a very loving and kind way wold tell students "you're a writer or you're not a writer. If you want to be a writer than you've got to correct these particular things.'' She meant a whole lot. She was student friendly, student connected, and was really I would say probably if no the top faculty member of that particular time, she was one of the top five faculty members on this campus back in the late '60s and '70s when she was here. She was a pillar in that department and I thought it was great when they named the Little Theater, it was called the Little Theater at that time, when they changed the name to the Niggli Theater. It was very nice. HL: Now do you remember when that happened? FH: I could not tell you the year. I think it happened in the '80s, maybe the mid-'80s. HL: Like was there any kind of festivities on campus? FH: Oh yes. Oh gosh yes. Uh huh. They had a reception and all, and named it and had her there and she made a little speech from what I remember about that. I think it happened just before her death and I don't remember when her death was. You probably might remember that, but I just don't remember. But it happened just a little bit before her death. I think I'm right about that. I'd have to go back and look, but think it was that way. HL: It was around that time ... 2 FH: if not, I'm sure it was shortly after her death that they named the theater after her. HL: What is ... FH: ... and I think this year ... I think this project, The Niggli Project, is really befitting to one of the deariest and caring faculty members period. I just think it's wonderful tribute to her and all her the teaching and all of her wonderful writings that she did. • HL: do you feel like ... You obviously remember when she passed away. FH: Yes. HL: Was there any kind of impact on the community, or on the university community if not the town, when she passed away since she seemed to have been an important person on campus. FH: She died ... it was I mean ... I can't, I don't remember ... I think there was a service on campus, but I'm not sure about that. I remember going to her service, and I think that there was one on campus. I don't thing there was one at a church around here. I just don't think so. I just don't know. I know the person that was executor of her estate. I don't remember that person's name now, but I knew the person and her husband. I could go back and look. He was in my poker club and I can't even think of his name at the moment. [laugh] So, that's what I remember about her death, but it was a sad time. You know as faculty members get older, new faculty members don't know those folks. She was one of the older faculty members, and I happened to come in at a time where she was in her prime here. Of course a lot of the new faculty members, at the point of her death, did not really know her. We had grown bigger and, you know, when you're at this university if you don't meet people in committees and really in social environments to get to know folks, you can be at the university and not get to know a lot of other people at the university. That's just he way, you know, it is. HL: You mentioned that she wore a lot of South Western colors. That sort of made me think. You know, there's some debate it seems between what her literature should e classified as, what she should be classified as nationality wise. How would you classify her? FH: Gosh I don't know. HL: Just from your impressions of her, or if you've read her work, your impressions of her work. FH: I would say I wold think she was from Texas, where she was. I think she's buried in Texas. I would think that she was a Texan. Really, I would say she was more Texan than Mexican. 2 Prompting the interviewee to continue speaking That's how I would classify her. Today, with everything like it is, I would put her in the big major class ofHispanic today. She would be a beautiful person labeled Hispanic today. HL: Well I've seen pictures of her. FH: She's just a beautiful lady. She was a beautiful lady, even in her older age. She was a person that had one of the most beautiful skins that you would ever hope to have. I mean her skin was just excellent, like it was absolutely perfect. Not a blemish. People talked about her skin and how wonderful, it was just always ... she was always just neatly dressed. You never • saw Josephina out with other than professional dress. You just didn't see that. HL: Now have you read any of her works? Her plays or her stories? FH: I did many years ago, and remember those things. I read Sombrero. 3 Never seen the movie, even to this day I've never seen the movie. HL: But you've read that book that it was based on. FH: Yeah, and not only that, but there were some episodes I think on, oh gosh, Little House ... yeah, Utile House 011 the Prairie. No. no no no, what was the Sunday night show with Cart Hal ... no .. Hoss Cartwright. The Cartwrights. What was the name of that show?4 Gosh I can't remember .. on Sunday nights. She wrote several episodes for that particular program. A tv program. So I did some reading, but not very much. Sombrero is the one that I can really remember at this point in time. But, a lot of short articles, locally and here on campus. She always .. oh her writings were just easy to read. · HL: So she contributed rather often to those? FH: I think so. I think so. I think so, but she had several professional contracts to write tor various pieces to Hollywood and for tv and all. HL: Now the kind of things that she wrote about in the newspaper if you can remember what. FH: Oh Gosh HL: Well I mean not specifics I guess because it would be hard to remember, but like were they things that had to do with the theater? Or were they just about things going on around town? 3 Mexican T Wage is the name of the book. Sombrero was the name of the movie . ..J. The show he is referring to is Bonanza \vhich ran for from 1959-1973 on NBC and at one time did air Sundays. FH: Basically these things were some things that were going on around town or on campus. She was a proponent for students. She really though students was the reason that we existed here and we ought to do everything we could to have a student be successful. She had a couple article, you know how faculty could work with students ad have them be successful. You know, I couldn't tell you where to go find those or anything at this particular4 point in time. That was back in the '60s. [shared laugh] late-'60s and early-'70s. [laugh] H: The plays. You mentioned that·you saw a number of plays that she put on here at Western. Did she participate, that you know of ... did she participate in helping get those · on, the ones all year round, or just like the spring play, or ... FH: No, she was one of these people that worked all year long on plays. Some of these she was producer and director really. A lot of them she just directed and some of them she just produced. Some of them she did both. But anything that was going to go in the Little Theater, as it was called during that period of time, had to have her approval [laugh] no matter what it was. Somebody else maybe producing or directing, but Josephina would make sure that she oversaw the project and that it was not going to be put on unless it was going to be great. You know, she broke some barriers here. She permitted language in some of the plays here in Cullowhee, with this being the Bible Belt at that particular time, she took some risks and chances that a lot of people in theater would not have taken at that particular point in time. But she had so much respect from everybody, 'til people were not gong to argue with her. Certain things had to be3 done to get the point across in her productions and all, and I was I mean I was totally shocked with the language in a couple of the plays, but I don't remember the names of them right now. HL: It sounds like she was very hands-on. FH: She was very hands-on. She was always hands on. Even things that she didn't have a whole lot to do, she was a hands on person, and you were always going to get an opinion from Josephina. I served on a couple of committees and it was never a committee I served on with her that she did not let people know how she felt about the issues that were being discussed. HL: Is there any particular encounter with her, besides the first time you met her, that sticks out in your mind? FH: Uh ... no. Uh not really. In social occasions she made you feel comfortable. You could talk about anything around Josephina. The one big thing is, you know, I could only ... I tried ... with her smoking I tried to be as far away as I possibly could, yet not far away. If Mary Wayte, Josephina, and I were together having a drink or eating a meal, we wee right together, and immediately after the meal she would light up. And you know, I'm going to be very kind and nice to these two ladies, cause they were both ladies, they were both professional, and I learned so much from both of them coming to Cullowhee. They educated me very quickly about drinking here on this campus. It was poo-pooed. You couldn't even buy a drink here in Cullowhee. You had to go to Asheville to get any kind of alcohol. I can remember the alcohol runs. Buying alcohol to get, to sell .. you know I'd get their money and I'd go to Asheville and 'd bring back alcohol for May Wayte and for Josephina. You know I'd make that alcohol run usually on Fridays after five o'clock [laugh] after classes were over with. [laugh] If I'd gotten caught bringing all of that alcohol back for two or three people, cause you were only allowed a gallon at that particular time and I'd have three or four gallons ... you couldn't go. Usually there would be another faculty member or two faculty members and I'd go over there. We'd go tot <;me ABC store on one side of Asheville and get alcohol and we cold only buy a gallon, you know, each person. Then we'd go on the other side and buy gallons, and then we'd bring it back and distribute it to folks and we'd take our turns going to Asheville, and other people would take their turns. Josephina and Mary Wayte wold go over there [chuckle] sometimes and pick up the alcohol and bring it back to all ofus. [laugh] HL: Was it usually like wine or ... FH: It was hard liquor usually, hard liquor and beer. Hard liquor and beer and wine. It was all three. But,t he hard liquor we was only able to buy at the ABC store. The beer you could buy at a couple of grocery stores that sold it. Of course wine wasn't plentiful at that time either. Only certain grocery stores would carry it. HL: Now what do you remember, since you had these dinners sometimes with your friend Mary and you would go to Josephina's house sometimes, what do you remember about her house? FH: Oh gosh. It was ... it was a very unusual house. Basically, you went into a big living room, as I remember it. Gosh I have to think about that for a minute. You go into a big living room with a fireplace and it was very nice. And then you went out and down a hallway and then back around. Back to the living room and each room was off of that hallway- kitchen, dining room, bedrooms and all. And at that time Joseph ... late on after I got to know her, one night I was there and she wanted to show Mary and I and Bill Paulk. Bill Paulk being in the English Department. HL: How do you spell his last name? GH: P-A-U-L-K HL: Ok. GH: He was a professor in the English Department, and he was a good writer. He was god friends with both Josephina and Mary also. So one night we were at Josephina's house and she'[ d bought this water bed. She wanted to show it to everybody. So she bought this waterbed and so we went in there and so help me God, as big as that bed was, ad the way that water was moving in that waterbed, I was thinking "Gosh it may just go all right through the floor." I didn't know if that floor was thick enough to hold all that or not and her you know? [laugh] So, that was a fun evening when she showed us that waterbed. [laugh] HL: Is there anything distinctive that sticks out to you about the way she decorated? I mean did the bright colors that wore carry over? GH: Oh goodness yes to the house also. Very bright colors. A lot of Mexican stuff. Her dishes. Her dishes was very much Mexican, Texas, South-Texas bright colors in her china and dishes • and etcetera. She loved brighi colors, I mean that's one of the things that sticks out with me about her is she loved bright colors. And oh gosh! Hot Mexican food. Whool I'm telling you, even as a young person back then in my late-twenties when I knew her, gosh it ... it ... it ... I mean I would have to have water and beer and ails with the meal in order to take care of some of the hot hot stuff that she had in some of her food and all. And chili. She made one heck of a good chili. She ... it was really good. Very spicy, but very delicious. And beer in her chili, oh that was a treat to have that. HL: Was it one of those ones with a lot of beans in it? GH: Oh, lots ofbeans, lots ofmeat, lots of sauce you know? Oh good ... yeah. Jalapeno peppers you know and it's dress those up. After I got to know her a little bit, if Id go have chili over at her place, well I would say "don't put the jalapenos in there", you know, in my part. [shared laugh] HL: Well, since we were talking about colors. Is there a specific color that you would associate in your mind with Josephina? FH: No, because she wore a lot of different colors. lfi had to say one color that really stood out, it would have been, it would be sort of a light orange type color or a light brown. Something like that. HL: Like a tan or a peach color? FH: I would say a peach color. Yeah, yeah, more a peach color. And brown, but more of a peach color. HL: And now why do you associate peach with her? FH: Well ... I think she like lighter colors as opposed to dark colors. She was one of these ... you know dark colors sometimes sends the message to me, I can't speak for her, sends the message to me that it's not lively. It's not a motivational type color that gets you motivated and enthusiastic about you or what you're doing and etcetera. She was one of these people who wore lighter colors, and I think light being from South Texas and Mexico with the heat and everything. This was part of Josephina. I didn't see her in many real real dark dark dark colors. It wasn't Josephina in the dark colors. HL: So you would say that she was a lively and motivational person. FH: Oh absolutely. Absolutely. HL: Did you ever hear her talk about anything that she did before she came to Cullowhee? FH: No. I can't answer that. HL: So no? FH: No. She didn't go back in her past to talk. I don't ... I couldn't tell you a thing about her past. I mean that was a, sort of a ... and I mean that just never came up in my presence really. I'm sure she talked like that with a lot of folks probably, but never with me. HL: So do you think that's because she didn't ... that she was in the present? She was a person very in the present or because that's just not what y'all would have talked about? FH: It's not what we wold have talked about. We in our social gatherings, and when I'd been around her and even Dr. Wayte, I mean really and truthfully we didn't go back and talk about ourselves and our previous life. You know, it was all present or something to do with the University right now. You know, it was all those particular things. HL: Do you recall what her impressions of Cullowhee was? FH: Oh she loved Cullowhee. She loved Cullowhee. 1 think once she got ere, just like it is for everybody, very unhappy at the very beginning. She even told me this. I came form Blacksburg Virginia, from Virginia Tech teaching the cadets up there and they were dressed up like crazy you know with polished shoes, uniforms and all. And 1 came here and gosh the dress where absolutely awfu .. different from what I had up there. I can remember the both of them saying "you're gonna have to really make some big adjustments because the students are going to be entirely different here than up there." I think another piece of advice they said to me was "when we got here, for the first month or so, it just seemed like it was just awful." you know, we had a two lane road into Sylva. There was nothing to do in Cullowhee, but they said "you be here a year or two years and it will grow on you and it will love it and we'll predict that if you do love it you'll stay here. If you don't love it, within two years you'll be gone." And that's exactly the advise that they gave me. After the first year I loved it, and I have been here ever since. When I came here n 1 966, there were fifty-two new faculty members, and the total faculty at that time numbered one hundred and two faculty for the twelve hundred students that we had on campus at that time. So we had more new faculty that year because they had grown, as opposed to old faculty. After the first year, we lost about half of those fifty-two new faculty members after the first year because all ofthem were young like I was and they wanted to go back .. they wanted to teach a year and get enough money to go back and do graduate work. So, I think I'm the oldest person right now that started in 1966 at the university right now. But, Josephina and May Wayte really were, as I say, good mentors to me and really helped me to adjust to the Cullowhee connection. And to answer your question about her, she loved Cullowhee. She loved the privacy. She loved the good air, the water that we had. She loved the people. She said she, in all of her experiences, she had never been at a place where she loved students and students were so easy to work with. She just fell in love with the faculty, and it was sort of a total change from some of the things that she had been involved with and the projects that she'd been in. She really loved Cullowhee and really truthfully, when she had guests here a lot of those guests always came back to visit her because she would sell Cullowhee to them. [shared laugh] HL: Do you recall if, outside of the theater, if she was involved with the community? FH: Oh yeah. She would make speeches around, like with Kiwanis Club5 , Rotary Club HL: The Kiwanis Club? I'm not familiar with that. FH: Kiwanis Club was a club, gosh I can't remember .. Rotary Club was in Sylva. The Chamber of Commerce had several meetings that she attended. Kiwanis ... I may have said that wrong, but there is Kiwanis Clubs. HL: Do you know how it's spelled? FH: Uh it's K ... it starts with a "K" but I'm not sure. HL: Ok. FH: I'm not sure. Uh ... Lion's Club. The local Lion's Club she spoke with. When they would do fund-raising things on campus, or at Christmas time when they would raise ... would gt food for needy families and all, she was involved with many of those type projects. As I say, she spoke a lot to different groups in Asheville at that particular point in time too. Even went to Charlotte to make several presentations I think. HL: Now you obviously had a very good rapport with her. Do you recall how the other faculty got along with her just in general? FH: I think over all, very good. Very good. Very good. If you weren't doing you job as a faculty member in that department, or she was on a committee and she knew things were going on, she would speak up in a very respectful, nice way. I don't think I ever saw, in a social or in a 5 Official Website -www.kiwanis.org- According to their website, "Kiwanis, through guidance and example, works to develop future generations of leaders. Every day, Kiwanians are revitalizing neighborhoods, organizing youth-sports programs, tutoring, building playgrounds, and performing countless other projects to help children and communities.'' The high school service club Key Club falls under the umbrella of Kiwanis International. (website accessed December 8, 2009) professional meeting here at the university, she was ever unkind to anyone or put anyone on the defensive. She was one ofthese things, she had that knack of talking to people to get her point across without saying "you." One ofthe things that always impressed me about her, with all of her ability and with all of her authorship and all, she never used the word "I." She never used the word "I." She would always get together other words when she was talking about herself, but it wasn't "I." That's always stuck with me. The other thing that she would not use, was the word "you." I learned that from her. By to using the word "I" or "you," so I try to avoid that in everything that I do. So those were two things that I, that I can say I really learned from her. • HL: Did she ever talk about ... I mean obviously you mentioned that when she talked about herself. Do you remember her talking about any of her work in particular? FH: Sometimes. Sometimes yeah. After a couple of drinks she would, that's when she would open up about some of the things that she was thinking about her writings and all. HL: About things she'd done or things she wanted to do? FH: Some things that she wanted to do, and things that she had done. Mostly what she wanted to do. HL: Is there anything in particular that stuck in your mind? FH: I just can't think of I don't think I remember anything about that. HL: Ok. Well I think we've covered a whole lot actually. [laugh] FH: [laugh] Ok. Great. HL: Is there anything else you can think of, or something that we did not cover, that you think is really important that you feel people should know about Josephina Niggli? FH: Not right now. I mean I'd have to do some thinking and all, but nit right now. I think I pretty well summarized right now what I can think of HL: Ok. Well if you think of anything, feel free to let me know. I'd be happy to come back and talk to you again. FH: Alright. Ok. Very nice. It's been nice talking with you. HL: You too. I'm going to go ahead and stop ... [End Transcript] Date: 28 October 2009 Begin Time: 2:41 PM EST Length File: 35 minutes 52 seconds Location: .. Fred Hinson's Office- Killian Annex 137- Cullowhee, North Carolina Equipment: Olympus Digital Voice Recorder VN-41 OOPC
Object