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Interview with Charles Byrd

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  • Charles Byrd, a student at Western Carolina College in the 1950s, discusses playing football first under Coach Young and then Coach Dan Robinson, the role of sports in the social life of the university, life as a student and an athlete, and briefly mentions changes brought about by racial integration.
  • Transcription Charles Byrd Interview TC = Tonya Carroll (interviewer) CB =Charles Byrd (interviewee) TC: My name is Tonya Carroll I'm here with Mr. Charlie Byrd, today is Saturday November 7, 2009. Are you aware that this interview is being recorded? CB: Yes I am Tonya. TC: Do you give permission for the interview to be used for academic and historic purposes? CB: Yes. TC: What years did you attend Western Carolina College? CB: Well for my undergraduate I attended 1954 through 58. For my graduate I was a full time student there and also on a teaching fellowship, half time teaching fellowship that was 1964 through 65, my E.D.S. I finished in 1976. TC: Why did you choose to attend Western Carolina College? CB: Urn, I guess I wanted to play football, college football. I had the opportunity to go to Wofford uh, had the opportunity to go to Lenoir-Rhyne those at that time were private schools and I was offered a half scholarship to attend each one of those but even with a half scholarship I could go to Western Carolina without a scholarship for the same amount of money you know, but so I was offered a half scholarship to Western Carolina and also in football and also with the possibility of an academic scholarship and so the half scholarship also had stipulations if I made the first 33 as a freshman I would receive a full scholarship the second quarter, at that time we were on a quarter system at Western so I guess monetarily you know my parents were textile workers and so money was an issue and also Coach Young who was the coach then was you know I liked him and at that time the facilities were new. The field house was under the old, well it wuttin' old it was the new Stillwell building at that time and the football field was right there with Hunter Library and it was new so the facilities were new and that was attractive. TC: What did you major in? CB: Uh, I had a double major. At that time if you was majoring in secondary education all with the exception of industrial arts you had to have a major and a minor and so I majored in physical education and in biology. So I had a double major. TC: Do you remember what dorm you stayed in? CB: Yes, uh stayed in Reynolds dorm uh, I remember at that time the room that I stayed in right over Dr. Morrill he was the person responsible for that end of the dorm and so my room was on the second floor with two other guys. There were three in a room on those end rooms at that time so and it was urn, that room was right adjacent to Robinson dorm, which was the other male dorm. 1 TC: What years and sports did you play at Western Carolina College? CB: Well, I only played football so I played the football the seasons of '54, '55, '56 and '57. TC: What position did you play? CB: Urn, at that time you know there wasn't two platoon system in football you played both offense and defense. I was an offensive guard and a defensive, I played linebacker on a five-two and a down lineman on a six-three defense. TC: You already told me about Coach Young CB:Umhmmm TC: can you tell me some more about him? Maybe some experiences you had with him. CB: Well, Coach Young, you know, he was a fell a that I guess recruited me and he was the type fella that he really had a genuine interest in you, in the players. If you were willing to work Coach Young would always have a little job for you, you know and money was tight for him and so he was trying to save every penny. I know in basketball season the visiting basketball teams slept in there adjacent to where we would dress in football so he would ask you to go down and put on sheets on the bed and this kinda thing, he'd give you a coupla bucks for that you know and so. He just made sure that you was taken care of you know and I guess he was sorta like not only a coach but hw was a friend, you know. I really loved to play for him. TC: Do you remember any other coaches? CB: Well, the last two years I played for Dan Robinson and those were tough years, those were tough years, Dan, it was his first year in college coaching, first year in college coachin' and I guess he had a complete different personality than Coach Young and so I know we had spring practice the first year he came up there, went from about January until May and so everybody was pretty much beat up after that spring, well I guess you call it spring and summer practice. (laughs) There was no restrictions then on the number of days you could have spring practice so it was tough. TC: I bet it's hard once you played for a coach for a coupla years to just switch to a completely different coach. CB: It is, you know, coaches are just like any other thing CEOs or anything they have different personalities and different expectations you know and so and I guess it's, I guess it's probly the person who recruited you, you know you have more of a sense of loyalty to them I suppose innately, you know instinctively you do. TC: Can you tell me about experiences with some of your teammates? CB: Well, I remember we had I'll never will forget we had one fella to get a really, this is sorta traumatic he got a real bad head injury one day in practice and so he never played any longer, any more, you know and they had to rush him to Asheville, and I see him now when we come back and he's doing alright now but you know that was one of those things that was, it sticks in your mind you know when you get that kind of severe injury so urn 2 TC: Did he get the injury while playing football? CB: Right, yeah it was practice, during spring practice he was a long snapper and you know he just I don' know whether he got kicked or hit but anyway he got a, it was a bad head injury so I remember that you know. TC: Were you really close to your teammates, did you do other things besides practice together? CB: Well, I guess my freshman year I roomed with one of my teammates was he was a freshman and I was a freshman and he never did go to class that first quarter so he didn't, he didn't make it (laughs) he'd go to football practice and that was about it so you know of course academically you know they didn't give any privileges to athletes at that day and time you know you had to be in class and you had to and you didn't back then you had to be in class because if you, you got one class cut per hour if you had a three hour class then you could have three class cuts in a quarter, after that they'd fail 'em. So it didn't take long, if youhad a five hour class you got five class cuts. So it didn't take long you know for him to (laughs) My other roommate was a paratrooper in the Korean War and so he was you know older and experienced he was a back so he was a little more mature than we were just coming outta high school you know but uh, I had another roommate not a roommate but another fella I played for was very instrumental in sorta being a father-like figure to young, he'd been in the Korean War and so I'll always remember him he lived down in Belmont and I lived in Spindale and he was the only one had a car that was going from Western down toward Charlotte area so got a ride with him you know going back and forth course you didn't go home that much you know but urn, I'll always remember him he was very instrumental in guiding us younger guys you know. TC: Did you have a nickname? CB: No, you know my name is Charles and others just Charlie you know so you know that was it. TC: Did you win any awards or championships? CB: Well, I guess I was co-captain of the team in 1957, I was also all-conference, All North State Conference in '57 so Zack Hendrix a running back for us was the other co-captain and so I guess that's the awards and I guess you know in athletics I guess you want athletic awards or you want other awards? TC: Any awards. CB: Well, you know I also had a academic scholarship and I was on student government and I was selected to Who's Who in American colleges and universities, you know I feel proud of that, I was usually on the Dean's List, so I tried to not only do my responsibilities as an athlete but also I was there to get an education academically you know. TC: Can you tell me about your experiences being a student and an athlete? CB: Well, I always felt like I made better grades when I was participating in athletics during the fall and during spring because you realized that you didn't have any time for anything else I mean you know you had to, time was a factor and you know I guess in the winter quarter when 3 you didn't have those things you'd think well you'd procrastinate and think well I'll do it tomorrow and well you know tomorrow comes and so you know so uh, you'd procrastinate again whereas when you were involved in athletics you had to do it today because tomorrow was gonna be just the same scene you know so. Urn, I certainly appreciate, urn I appreciate people who do well academically and athletically particularly now cause I can remember us having to go away and I think we were playing Emory Henry at that time and we had to leave on a Thursday seems like and I had a Kinesiology test that I had to study for and it's hard to study when you're with forty five guys you know away from home and that may not be their focus you know so I appreciate athletes especially basketball players where they're gone so much you know. TC: Do you think that because you were an athlete you were more popular or well known on campus than just other students? CB: Well, I think it does you know it does have your name out front I think you know because you know athletes you know they get publicity through the paper you know both positive and negative and so I've still got this little booklet where a teammate of mine kept all the press clippings and this kind of thing and so yes, you know I think you know you're recognized you know I guess would be a way of putting it you know. TC: What did being an athlete at Western Carolina College mean to you? CB: Well, you know with my financial situation it meant me getting a college education you know. I guess my parents were textile workers maybe making fifty cents an hour when I went to Western course tuition wasn't but $650 a quarter I mean a year so it was a way of getting an education. When I graduated from high school you could there was 'bout two ways you could get an education, well maybe three. If your parents were maybe executives in the textile mills their children could go to school, and there wasn't that many scholarships available then I think that I was one of the first ones to interview for a Morehead Scholarship and I think that might've been the second year of the Morehead so there wasn't that many academic scholarships available and the other way you could go to school was to go in the military, which a lot of people did and when they got out they'd go to school on the GI Bill and the other one was athletes, doing athletics and my senior year in high school the people who I played with that were juniors and seniors nine of us went to colleges on athletic scholarships and several of 'em went to Duke, several of 'em went to Wofford, which was you know and several of 'em went to Tennessee Tech and so we had a pretty good program, athletic program well we had a lot of talent I guess we'd say you know. TC: Can you tell me a little bit about when you would travel to away games like teams you'd play? CB: Oh yeah I can do that! I'll always remember going to play East Carolina and my freshman year and we got stopped in Raleigh and we had to wait there for Hurricane Hazel, which is probly one of the most damaging hurricanes to hit the East Coast of North Carolina and so that that hurricane was basically was quick hitting and we got back on the bus going down I guess it was Old 70 out of Raleigh and we'd have to get out of the bus and roll the dog on trees out of the way and we went through Wilson, North Carolina and those tobacco warehouses looked like a Vienna sausage you know how you used to roll, that's how that tin was rolled up you know after 4 that hurricane hit. So we played East Carolina down there and when we'd play East Carolina we'd, uh, we'd play and it would be over around ten o'clock or so and we'd go and have an after game meal and then we'd get back on the bus and come back to Cullowhee. That was a long trip, get back into Cullowhee about noon the next day on Sunday. So uh, yes I remember, I remember those East Carolina trips. We would go to Tampa and play in Tampa, we'd go down a day early and stay and TC: In Florida? CB: yeah, urn hmmm and it wasn't much further than, travel time because we'd go right down 441 into Commerce, Georgia and then from Georgia down you know it wasn't a heck of a lot further to go to Tampa than it was to East Carolina because at that day and time there was no interstates you know so when you got on the bus and we traveled a bus company out of Asheville, Randall was our bus driver I remember that, I can remember he always drove the bus and he was a hired driver there you know. TC: How would the fans treat you at away games? CB: Well I can remember playing at Catawba and we, my roommate who was a tackle and this other guy from Catawba they got thrown out of the ballgame for fighting and so after the game we beat Catawba and seems like I think but anyway went up to shake hands and this guy just hit my roommate and he just took his jaw all the way back to his ear and opened it up and it was just ohhhhh just everybody was fighting you know I mean you just fans, teams and the whole kit and kaboodle so and so I guess that's one of the things I remember other than that, I never did have any you know, never did have any (trails off) TC: Do you remember the best teams that you played against? CB: Lenoir-Rhyne. Lenoir-Rhyne at that time they dominated the North State Conference. My freshman year we beat Lenoir-Rhyne six to nothing. Boy by the name of Bob Joy who had been a, he had gone to Clemson returned the opening kick off and urn, back and we won the game six to nothing and so that was a, that was a feat. One of the things back then the goal post was they were not as wide as they are now and I don't know how many games we lost by one point because for some reason we couldn't kick extra points with a (laughs) with a lot of dependency you know (mumbles) so we did lose a number of one point games so, but we didn't, that was one I do remember. I remember my senior year we beat East Carolina at Western and we beat Catawba at Western so I can remember that. East Carolina had a quarter back by the name of Dick Cherry and we was proud for that win you know. TC: Would you just play the teams once in a season? CB: U m hmmm, yeah, right. TC: You already told me that the team when they would go to away games would have a bus from a Asheville company come CB: Umhmmm TC: do you remember the name of the company? 5 CB: No, I think it was Trailways out of Asheville you know at that time I believe it was. TC: And do you know if they would use that bus for other sports or was it just football? CB: I think it was just football, maybe, yeah football cause I think at that time the basketball team and the baseball team I think they traveled in private cars and see that was only, see there was no women's athletics and so you had football, basketball and baseball and that was it and so I'm pretty sure that those two teams baseball and basketball traveled by private vehicle, yeah. Players may have a car and the coach'd have a car or two and that, you know. Usually when the basketball team would go say they'd take their eastern trip they'd go to East Carolina then on the way back they would play some, urn somebody like High Point and Guilford and Elon and so they would be gone three or four days or maybe a week and they'd get all that in in one travel you know and then they in basketball you, they'd play a home and away type situation. TC: Did the football team have any pregame or postgame rituals that they would do? CB: Well, I guess what I remember was the pregame meal was always dry roast beef and toast and hot tea so or often times when we'd go away it'd be scrambled eggs and toast or something like that you know and then the after game meal we'd usually have steak and you know French fries and this kinda thing but before a game we'd usually eat about four o'clock and then, and then get taped you know and dressed and that kinda thing but I do remember those pregame meals. Dry roast beef! TC: Can you tell me some of your best memories as an athlete in college? CB: Well, I guess beating East Carolina was one of them, you have better games you know and I had a really good game, got an injury that night but I was having a really good game against Catawba we opened up with Wofford my senior year and a boy I played high school with Twitty Carpenter was the co-captain for Wofford and I was the co-captain for us so that was unusual both of us had been (trails off) and Richardson who owns Carolina Panthers now played for Wofford at that time so and and the boy that I played with is now head of the School of Psychiatry at the University of Maryland and he was the one that testified that in the, when Hinckley shot Reagan! So yeah he testified that yeah Hinckley you know was psychotic you know so. TC: Can you tell me some of your worst memories? CB: I guess the worst memories is those spring practices that lasted so long because you were so beat up physically you know that, that's just I know first in 1950 uh, 54, 55 I guess it'd be the spring of '56 we were practicing or '55 we were practicing one side of the line against the other side because we didn't have enough people that were able to have twenty-two people to practice against so you know we were down to 11-12 guys in college I remember that. I remember your hands being so beat up you couldn't hardly dress yourself that was before the time of Velcro you know (laughs) so I'd given anything, my roommate and I used have to dress ourselves, or dress each other cause we couldn't button our you know couldn't button our clothes our hands were so beat up. TC: Did any of the players quit because of those practices? 6 CB: Oh yeah, urn hmmm yeah we lost a lot of players I never will forget we lost not lost a good running back one time because of just excessive, excessive practice you know. He was a veteran and he had a GI Bill so you know scholarship you know he didn't have to have it to have the money to go to school so. TC: Do you remember when the Arkansas Travelers came to Western? CB: I have a vague memory of it but you know just vague I mean I don't have enough to you know really give you any detail of it but I do remember them coming. TC: Do you remember when the basketball team played UNC Chapel Hill at Reid Gym? CB: Yes, sure do took up tickets at that ballgame that night you know and we thought Reid Gym was uh, was uh you couldn't fill it you know after being in Breese Gym that ol' rock gym you know and back then when they played at Breese Gym they'd have to put the bleachers up and take 'em down that night so they could have physical education classes the next day so we went to Reid Gym and those roll away bleachers we thought that was the, well it was the state of the art at that time you know and so yes I very well remember that game. TC: Did you attend any other sporting events other than the football games you played in? CB: Oh, went to basketball games, and went to baseball games you know at that time Western had a really good well they had a good basketball and uh and good baseball. One of my roommates later on was a catcher for and he'd signed a pro-baseball contract with Cleveland Indians he was a catcher for the baseball team and so yes you know that was just entertainment you know. I guess the baseball field and our football practice field is down where the Killian Education building is and Hind's University Center is, that was the baseball field and the football practice field. TC: Do you remember a man named Phillip Smith? CB: Yes, Chief! Chief lived down in Boodleville and his wife Dee and both of 'em were physical education majors and I was a physical education and had a lot of classes with them you know. That, met Dee when we had our fiftieth celebration. TC: Do you know how he got the nickname Chief? CB: Well, I guess he was Cherokee and so we had, we had other kids there that was from the reservation but we just nicknamed him Chief you know, I guess you know he was Chief when I got there. (laughs) so we always just called him Chief Smith. TC: Do you have any stories or memories about him? CB: One I remember one time we were in graduate school and he made some remark to Dr. Siewert who was head of the P.E. Department who was teaching graduate school and I thought that, that you know he was awful brave to make that remark to Dr. Siewert Cause Dr. Siewert didn't put up with a whole lot of remarks (laughs) you know you was there to listen (laughs) not say anything. (laughs) TC: Do you remember what he said? 7 CB: I don't remember what he said but you know I, we were somewhat taken aback when your cause you know nobody did those kinds of things to Doc Siewert (laughs) TC: Did you learn anything about Cherokee culture from Phillip Smith? CB: Well, yes because I guess we used to sneak off in football season and we'd go over to the Cherokee Fair and that was forbidden territory for us football players because but nevertheless you know I guess cause it was forbidden that made it more enticing to go so used to go over there and to the Cherokee Fair you know and, and usually Chief would have a car load and course back then very few students would have a car, Chief had a car and so we would we would • sneak over there. TC: Were you not supposed to go just because it was away from the college? CB: No, it was just wasn't s'posed to go because I guess coach thought that wasn't a place we needed to be you know so you know back then you didn't question a lot of things that, they was in charge and you was you sort of followed along but if you got caught there then it was going to be tought on you prolly run a few laps and I don't know one of the things they'd do there I know like if you got caught smoking, which I didn't smoke they'd take money off your scholarship you know and I know one of the guys that I roomed with later on was a basketball player he got caught twice smoking in one day so that was a hundred dollars each throw and he had a 600 dollar scholarship that's about what scholarships were worth so he lost one-third of his scholarship in (laughs) in a day. (laughs) TC: Can you tell me just a few stories that come to mind about playing football for Western? CB: Well, I guess I felt like that playing college athletics I think it teaches you some things that it teaches you to to be competitive it teaches you discipline and I think it teaches you that you can do that and other things too and I think my senior year I felt like that I was you know being co­captain it teaches you something about leadership, and so I think it had some carry over value into what I did later on in school administration and this kind of thing you know. And I think it prepared me when I went into the Marine Corps it you know after going through those spring practices boot camp you know, you know I'd been through boot camp several times you know (laughs) TC: Yeah. Would you like to comment on how sports have changed from when you played to now? CB: Well, I think back then sports were for the students to come and to be a part of it was part of the educational process I think now that its big business, real big business and it is more about you know winning and losing and having great teams so we can put more fans in the stadium you know and I'm sure this is not true of all athletes but I sometimes I don't know about the student they call it the student athlete I think maybe it's probly gone a little heavy on the athlete and maybe a little less on the scholastic side you know I don't have any data to back that up but sometimes I think, that's just my opinion you know it' not scientific by any means. I just don't know sometimes whether we got the right priorities. TC: What were some of the activities that you would do in your free time at Western? 8 CB: Well, I played tennis, started playing tennis in fact one spring when practice got over a little bit I played for the tennis team a coupla, a coupla matches and but my activities when I had time was playing tennis and the other thing is I sued to work I used to officiate basketball in the winter and I used to work down at the student union building racking pool balls to make a little money so the monogram club owned a pool table, two pool tables down there and we would get those of us who racked we would get a nickel a cue and it cost ten cents a cue for someone to play and so 'member that. I remember the student union director he would let us, the girls had to be in by ten o'clock at that time and so we would stay down there the guys would stay down there and shoot a little nine ball and so TC: You told me about if someone got caught smoking they would lose part of their scholarship money CB: Umhmmm TC: was there any rules like that about alcohol use? CB: Oh, alcohol when I went there the veterans, Korean War veterans were coming back course you know they'd been used to drinking you know and if they found a beer can in your room you went before the men's house government and sometimes you'd be on probation about one time on probation and then the next time you was gone! I mean it just wuttin' tolerated I know they used to have this thing uh, the closets place where you could alcohol, beer was over in, in Waynesville a place they called Dr. Clyde's it was a little place over there had a little cafe and little beer joint and guys called it going over the hill so you'd have to go over, that hill was Balsam Mountain you know course back then it was a two lane road and so guys drove over there and to get some beer but you know as I say drinking was at a minimum you know and I guess I was in one of the first fraternities we were just starting up fraternities at that time and sororities were just starting they were that was probly '57. TC: What fraternity were you in? CB: Can't, I can't even remember now you know. TC: When you came to the reunion did you see the fraternity houses? CB: Urn hmmm yeah, I walked, went down to the fraternity houses yes, I thought it was a long ways from where we started I remember having pictures taken of our fraternities and you know we had to put on a bow tie and a what are those shirts you wear with tuck and having a fraternity dance you know so that was the first, that was the start and a fraternity, you had to be a local fraternity for so long and you didn't have the national fraternity name at the time it was a local, call that a local fraternity until you had earned the rights to become a national fraternity organization. TC: Can you tell me a little bit about what you did after you graduated? Where you worked? CB: Well, after I graduated I went to went into the Marine Corps I was in the officer's tentative program at Western, Western didn't have one but I signed up my junior year and went to, to boot camp my junior and senior year and then when I finished I was commissioned second lieutenant in the Marine Corps and then I went to Quantico to Officer's Candidate School and then from 9 there I went into the Marine Force I went into 3rd marine Division in Okinawa, I was an artillery officer for a while then I played football and then I got transferred to division headquarters I was division special service officer which was division athletic officer which was responsible for all the athletics, all the athletics in 3rd Marine Division from there I got transferred to the States, I married my wife Shirley we had a military wedding and then I was went down to Camp Lejeune at Camp Lejeune coached football and was responsible for the, the athletic program for the 101 h Marines there at Camp Lejeune so most of my time was spent in I guess somewhat related to athletics and physical activities for Marines and then from there went to work for Raytheon Company, which makes a hawk missile I was a technical writer for them doing maintenance and calibration checks for hawk missile system and that's my MOS in the Marine Corps MOS stands for Military Occupational Specialist was a artillery officer so did that for a coupla years and decided that wasn't my cup of tea and so got the chance with the help of Dr. Seabird? With the PE Department to go back to Western on a teaching fellowship, prolly one of the first teaching fellowships granted there myself and a lady by the name of Betty Westmore and she was on a teaching fellowship she stayed in the department, then finished up my masters then I came to Hendersonville, Hendersonville High School as a teacher and as a coach and from there I went to principalship and from principalship I went to the central office and from the central office in superintendancy of Hendersonville City Schools. TC: You coached football for Hendersonville? CB: Urn hmmm well I was a line coach for Hendersonville. At this time Mr. Bird's wife asks if he told me that he went to Okinawa for fifteen months? Mr. Bird answered her he said Yeah and tells me I was engaged and got sent to, got sent to Okinawa. The he says I'll show you right here's our (he gets up and walks over to some pictures on a table) wedding picture Marine Corps. (It is a picture of him and his wife getting married and he is wearing his Marine Corps uniform) TC: Wow! Her dress is beautiful. CB: And so we had a military wedding, you know probly the first one ever in that little ol' town you know, Spindale. So I've had a good career after I retired, I went to Asheville as interim superintendent over there at Asheville City Schools for a while worked for Western in the education department supervising student teachers for about five years after I, that was part time I've done interim down Polk, just finished an interim down at Polk County I was principal interim principal of elementary school so last, went to work there in March through June so. TC: Well those are all my questions. Do you have anything else that you would like to add? CB: Well you know I just as we was talking earlier I hope that the philosophy of Western Carolina University I think that school was established to benefit rural mountain children that wouldn't have opportunities to, to advance without that university and I hope that we don't overlook what was it's original concept you know because when I was there and I was one of 'em was first generation to go to college and most youngsters at that time that was the way it was and so I hope it continues to, to serve its mission of kids in primarily Western Carolina course it's got to expand and it has you know but I hope it doesn't lose that original purpose. TC: My mom's family, you know my grandfather has his master's and 10 CB: Umhmmm TC: and all his kids have went on to school but I'm the first in my dad's family to have a four year degree so for some people that hasn't changed that they're CB: Oh I know TC: the first to go on to school. CB: That's you know and I think this is what Western still has the lowest tuition I think of any school in you know any state school well of course the state schools are always less expensive than private school but and I think it entices people you know I got a couple granddaughters that you know as the old saying goes money talks sometimes you know especially to folks that don't have it you know they look for a place that can give you a quality education at a reasonable price and I think Western certainly you know I felt like that, that when I, when I got through student teaching at Western that I was prepared to teach you know I felt like they had given me the background that I needed to teach. My biology major I had great professors there Mr. Dodson and later became Dr. Eller they were very knowledgeable and so and the P.E. Department there was second to none the leadership of Dr. Siewert Dr. Constance and Ellen Heartsign? later Mrs. Bentley and Mrs. Ritter you know those people they were the tops in their field you know and they expected you to be knowledgeable about what they taught and I had an English class under a professor there that, that I got a C on, one of the few Cs that I made but I was so proud of that C I tell ya if she knew that you was an athlete that was the kiss of death (laughs) you know but I'd always hang my letter sweater out in the foyer you know cause I never wore that thing to her class cause that would be, be doomed! (laughs) TC: Do you know why that is? CB: Well, just she didn't think much of athletes you know. (laughs) And I begged Dean Bird? Who was Dean I went up there and begged him to get me, let me change classes he said Oh no, I think you can pass in there. Well I'll tell you what I was scared within and inch of my life but that C was real sweet (laughs) when I saw that grade TC: That's good. CB: Ok. You know I guess when I was at Western is when Brown vs. Board of Education decision was made and I had the opportunity to teach when I was a graduate Henry Logan probly one of the first black students, or probly the first black student him and I can't think of the kid that came with Henry up here to, to go to school at Western and so I've seen I've seen it go from there and incidentally I taught at Hendersonville High School I taught the first class that went through there and it was totally integrated, in 1965. So, seen a lot of changes in education you know. TC: Did you ever see Henry Logan play basketball? CB: Oh yeah! Yes, yeah. Henry Logan in his day could play he could play wherever he wanted to play you know. He was about I don't know but anyway there's very few people who could in fact you couldn't dunk the basketball back then it was, it was, it was a technical foul if you dunked the basketball back then but Henry had no trouble at dunking the basketball he wuttin' 11 bout six feet tall I mean he could just elevate you know. And didn't have a three point shot back then either you know so but and they had Western had really good basketball teams you know cause Coach Gudger and good baseball Coach Gudger TC: Can you CB: Coach Gudger was my line coach my first two years he was a good guy to play for he was the kinda guy that could really just chew you out and, and made you want to you know really put forth more you know and that's a special talent when you can really get on a kid and, and makes them want to produce some people can do that and you just want to go the other way you know • and I don't know what that is but Coach Gudger had that he had that, that, that kind of skill to you know really chew you out and make you want to do better. TC: Ok. CB: That's it. I don't have anything else unless you have anything? TC: No, I think that'll do it. Thank you very much. CB: Well yes your welcome I hope that, you'll enjoy talking with Bob Holcomb he was a guidance counselor at Pisgah High School for a number of, a good while and coached girls basketball. TC: My grandmother said she had a choice to go to Western or a business school near Asheville where she lived CB: Umhmmm TC: and she said she really wanted to go to that business school because they had a girls basketball team and Western didn't have girls' teams CB: Huhummm TC: but she said I just was not interested in business so I went to Western and played intramural sports CB: Urn hmmm, yeah, yep. When you, when you majored in physical education at Western you had to earn as a male you had to earn a varsity letter ok or you had to be actively involved in intramurals. TC: Wow. CB: And the girls course they had no way of earning the varsity letters you know but they it was mandatory that you participate in intramurals if you was gonna major in physical education and it was also mandatory as a male that you earn a letter you know so and we had a sophmore test on and it was sorta the screening test that decided whether you was gonna be a P.E. major or not and it strength and agilities and just a number of things and if you couldn't do that then find you another major you know. TC: Wow. 12 CB: (laughs) TC: Sounds pretty tough. CB: Find you another major you know so at the end of your sophmore year you had that skill test and if you didn't pass it then you know you was on to somewhere else so TC: Did you know people that didn't pass? CB: Oh yeah, yeah I had a lady that taught for me, taught P.E. and if she'd of been at Western at that time I guarantee she wouldn't've been a P.E. major. . TC: Well that makes sense that you'd be able to do those kind of things. CB: Yeah, yeah I mean she threw a ball like a girl you know. You know, you know P.E. majors they throw a ball like a you know throw a ball like a boy you know that's just I'm not being critical of the gender but you know it just like my granddaughter that run the track she's thrown a ball just like the boys ever since she's been a baby you know cause she's just an athlete and her sister throws it like a girl you know she sings and but chances are you wouldn't've majored in it so as a P.E. major if you didn't have that kind of skills and that's all right because this lady shouldn't have been teaching P.E. and she's unfortunately was a Western graduate and I thought you know you'd never be here if she'd've been under Dr. Seabird? Cause you'd've never made the cut. TC: Well it seems like you would have to know how to do it to teach it to other people. CB: Be able to demonstrate it right yeah, yeah. And so that's right you know so he expected you know when you'd take methods of physical education, which was gymnastics and a number of different sports badmiton and this kind of thing you know and you had to be able to do it you know demonstrate it so that's what made it such a good department you know. TC: Ok. CB: All right. TC: Well I'll tum the recorder off. CB: This is addendum to what we discussed earlier that I just thought about while talking to Tonya. When I played there was this thought that you didn't drink water because water would cause you to have stomach cramps I don't know why they gave you salt tablets but you'd always get two salt tablets before you went out to practice and I can remember as a lineman we'd go down and work on split drills and you just be, your mouth'djust be parched and we practiced on the baseball field so especially in the fall it'd be hot and dusty and you 'djust be parched and you'd go up there and to run team drills and you'd, you would take the towels that the backs had to wipe their hands on and you'd suck on those towels so you'd get a little moisture to your lips to and if it's rain sometimes you'd just put your hand down in a mud hole and scoop up a little water and maybe take a little sip of that you know mud hole so but you know water was not a thing that you got and when you'd have a timeout you didn't get any water either so it was (laughs) you know now they realize that keeping fluid in your boy makes the muscles respond 13 better but those were just some things they believed in at that time we didn't know any better but it sure would have been nice to have a drink of water occasionally. (laughs) TC:Ok. 14
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