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Fred Wilnoty: Cherokee Stone Carver

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  • Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 1 START OF FRED WILNOTY INTERVIEW Tonya Carroll: My name is Tonya Carroll today is Thursday April the 15th, I’m here with Fred Wilnoty at Qualla Arts and Crafts in Cherokee, NC. What traditional Cherokee crafts do you make? Fred Wilnoty: Usually I’ll make the ceremonial peace pipes, the pendants that some of the Cherokee used to wear during their dances and that’s about it. Maybe a standing piece every now and then. And I have done some rattles, a few masks, when I say a few that’s probably three in my life time. TC: Can you just tell me a little bit about the process that you use when you start making your artwork? FW: That would be easier to demonstrate then it would be to explain. Sometimes I can pick up a piece of stone and look at it and not see anything and I’ll pray about some of the things that I do. Sometimes I’ll pick up a piece and I’ll see something in there right off so I’ll start carving it. And that’s whenever a finished piece is done that's what it is. My dad told me a long time ago, he said you got to cut away the roof, bring out what was meant to be in the stone. TC: So what kind of materials and what kind of stone do you use? FW: I use steatite mostly and the calamite, the steatite is a traditional Cherokee stone and the calamite people bring it in and sell. TC: Have you ever went out and got our own stone? FW: All the time. Every now and then I might buy a piece or two if I can come across some good quality stone, but most of the time, we go myself and my wife or Jan we’ll go and we’ll look all day long. Sometimes we’ll find maybe 3 or 4 pounds of it, but then there’s been a couple of times we’ve come back with 30 or 40 pounds. I look at it this way, it’s a blessing whenever we find 30 or 40 pounds because that’s how I make my living. And I consider that a gift from god. TC: Do you know if the materials that you use if they’ve always been used in this area? FW: They sure have the Cherokee pipe stone, the steatite, it’s always been used by the Cherokee for their ceremonial pipes. And the stems that I put in them, they are from the sourwood. TC: Is there a certain reason that you use the sourwood? FW: Well it’s traditional, so I try to keep it going. It’s what our people have done for 100’s of years. I feel that someone needs to keep it going. I’ve got two boys who every Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 2 now and then they’ll pick up a piece of stone and start working with it. So they’ve got an interest in it. One he’s already graduated and he’s got a carving of his own that he’s working on, I’ve got a younger one that is15 right now, but the thing is that he don’t really care to carve unless I’m going somewhere to set up and demonstrate, then he gets interested. He has sold a couple of pieces that I’ve helped him on. That you know that inspires him to do it. TC: I know it’s hard to kind of estimate, but from start to finish, how long does the whole process take? FW: It varies because I’ve got some pieces that I started 2 years ago and still haven't got ‘em finished. [laugh] And I’ve got I’d say like a smaller piece like a little beetle I’ve got over there, now that one 2 to 3 days, but sometimes I’ll put in anywhere from 10 to 16 hours a day on a piece and have it done in 2 or 3 days. But then again there’s pieces like the spider I’m working on when I get through cutting out all the stone and under it, that could take up to 3 weeks and it’s all done by hand. TC: So how did you learn how to do your stonework? FW: Just like my dad told me, let’s see it’s been 30, about 32 years ago he said do like I did son, learn on your own. He’s never taught me what to do. I’ve seen plenty of his carvings so you know that inspired me and whenever I’d ask him a question he’d give me an answer so over the years I learned how to bring out what’s supposed to be in the stone. He’s never taught me or anyone else. TC: So do you remember what made you interested in learning? FW: I’ve watched my dad and it always interested me. I’ve worked as a security guard, done plumbing, electricians helper, hung drywall, and I was a maintenance man for a campground, I worked in offices, stores, just never really interested me. Always comes back to the traditional artwork of the Cherokee. So that’s what inspired me is our traditions. TC: While you were in school, did you learn any techniques or anything from anybody then? FW: To tell the truth I got kicked out of woodcarving class. Amanda Crow kicked me out and told me to find some place else to sit around pick on somebody. She was a good woman, it’s just that I was a jokester back then. I sort of picked at her about her big ears on her bears, and I called them Elephant bears I guess she got tired of it one day and told me to get out of her class. You know be truthful. TC: Okay, you’ve been doing stone carving for about 32 years? Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 3 FW: Yeah, I’ve only sold, the very first piece I’ve done I believe I got 5 dollars for it and I’ve seen some of the pieces that I’ve done when I was like 17, 18 years old out of stone look nothing like my work does today. TC: You talked a little bit about your two sons being interested. Are you helping anyone else? FW: No. TC: You kind of just [live by that] if your interested you’ll teach it to them. FW: Yeah, I believe that a person has the ability in them, it’s a gift from our creator. And they’ll find it if they’ve got it and they’ll be able to do it. From what I’ve seen from my two sons, my oldest one, I believe he’s got it in him. If he would just put his time and effort into it instead of running around. Switching jobs. He makes good money, but sometimes it’s not all about money. It’s about the accomplishment about bringing something out of the stone. TC: How have you noticed in yourself and maybe in others stone carvers the change from when you first started how has it changed to the present? FW: There’s a big time change, there’s a lot of them that use dremmels to do their carving with, I don’t believe in that. I bought a Dremel one time I was going to try to do one of my insects, first time I touched that Dremel to there I ruined they run away with you, I just can't use one. Not me I have to use my hand tools. TC: So you buy your hand tools, make them or? FW: Most of what I’ve got is what my dad gave me. What he made. TC: I guess for the record we should probably say who your dad is. FW: John Julius Wilnoty. TC: Can you tell me about the first time you finished your first stone carving how you felt about it? FW: Truthfully, when I finished the first one I didn't think too much of it. I mean it wasn’t nothing. Not compared to what I have today. Just like I said I thank god because it is a gift to be able to look at a piece of stone, such as the piece I showed you over there earlier and study it and see what’s in it, bring it out. TC: What did you think the first time somebody gave you money for one of your carvings? Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 4 FW: I thought they were a little mental to pay for that first piece. [laugh] Like I said it wasn't much. And you know some people can look at something like I done the very first piece I done and think it’s art work. To me it’s something a child done. TC: So what do you think about your work now? FW: It has improved quite a bit, I mean I believe it can even improve more. It’s just that in order for it to improve I believe that a person has to be closer to our creator. He’s the one that give me the gift to do what I do. I’ll thank him every day for everything that I have. So. TC: Can you recognize your own work? FW: Most definitely. TC: Do you know how you’re able to do that? FW: There’s nobody else that carves like I do. You can look at my artwork and tell that TC: Do you think you carving maybe a little bit, if somebody looked at your work and your dad’s work, would they think it was similar. FW: There’s a big difference in my dad’s work and mine. He was called at one time in an article as the Red Mans Michael Angelo. I’ve had people tell me that my work has surpassed his but in my own opinion I don’t think it has. TC: When he sees your work does he encourage you or what kind of things does he tell you about it? FW: Well to tell you the truth, he can be a smart A sometimes you know. Sometimes he’ll tell me that looks pretty good and other times he’ll say what the H is that. And he’ll also tell me, you’ve got a warped mind son. All: [laugh] FW: That’s the only thing about it, I love my dad, but he sometimes can be a character. He tells it exactly like it is and what he thinks. TC: Can you talk a little bit about the importance or meaning behind your stone carvings to the Cherokee people? FW: Well you know the traditional ceremonial peace pipes or our ceremonial pipes, something that was used in ceremonies and I think that, you know there are certain groups around here that still try to carry on our traditional dances and there are several of them that the Cherokee people done that whenever they done they use the ceremonial pipes in those dances. Such as ceremonial dance staffs. I’ve done a few of those to think Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 5 about it. There’s a real importance of keeping our traditions, because if you look at our tribe now how it’s growing, our traditions are fading our bloodline is running out too. Once that’s gone, I believe the Cherokees are gone. TC: When did you or do you realize that you are a Cherokee tradition bearer or keeper? FW: I’d say 20 years ago. Don’t seem like it’s been that long. It’s when you realize now I’m getting old. TC: So what made you think of that? FW: I was talking with some people that had came when we was from over in Tennessee. Somehow or another they found me, came to me and asked me to do a ceremonial pipe for them, they didn’t want no one else to do it but me. And they felt that the great spirit, which would be God Almighty had sent them to me. And the thing about it, is whenever they came to me and asked me to do that they brought me some tobacco and they asked me when I finished the piece would I bless it for them. And when I finished that piece we were sitting there. At the time I was living in a trailer up on the side of the mountain. When I finished that piece they showed up, brought me some more tobacco as a gift. We were sitting there talking and I took that pipe, held it up like this inside the trailer and there was a clap of thunder that shook the whole trailer and window, rattle, they almost broke. And the woman that was with me and had ordered the pipe almost wet her drawers and he turned plumb red in the face and went to shaking and they got down and said thank you. I told them it wasn't me, it just happened that way. It happened that way. I realized then that there’s a real strong belief in the Cherokee traditions and someone needs to keep it going. TC: By being a Cherokee tradition bearer, do you feel any obligation to teach other people or? FW: I don’t feel an obligation to teach them, because if they have it they have it, if not... You know it’s got to be in your heart to want to do these things and if you don’t have it in your heart, then you don’t have it. That’s where it comes from FW: How does it make you feel, especially the people in your tribe, think of you as a tradition bearer? FW: I’d say a lot of them don’t think too much of me, because of my past. Some people live in the past and they stay in the past as far as forgiveness goes. Because at one time I wasn’t a nice person I don’t believe. That was in my younger years, but people do change. And I’ve had people tell me too, you know you do beautiful work, like I said I thank god for it, because it is a gift. TC: Are you worried that the stone carving and the importance behind it is going to die out? Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 6 FW: Well you know maybe the importance behind it might die out, but as far as the stone carving goes I don't think it’ll die out until the end of this world. Because there are so many people who are carving. There are also people coming from out of state bringing stone carving here and selling it as traditional Cherokee art work and it’s not right. I’ve seen it happen before. I won’t mention no places or names, but I’ve seen it happen. TC: You talked a little bit about when you were going to go and set up where are some of the places that you go and what do you do when you set up? FW: I’ve been at Bearmeats Indian Den. That’s only because he paid me. And the Old Mill. Come to think of it that’s the only two places that I’ve ever done I’ve had plenty of opportunities to go, I’ve had opportunity to go to New York and do an art show. The thing is is that I’m taking care of my dad and that comes before anything else except for my wife and my kids. So you might as well say my family comes first. I put them before everything because I was blessed with them. TC: Do you have any of your art work on display, or have you won any awards? FW: I believe I won first place at the festival over here 3 or 4 times in a row. I’ve got art work on display here and at Medicine Man Craft Shop, Bearmeats Indian Den and I have private collectors too, sometimes they’ll search me out ask me to do a piece for ‘em. Sometimes they’ll ask me to do a certain thing for them. I’ll tell them, I can try to do that, it might turn out exactly the way they want it because sometimes I’ll end up putting something else in there that it may take a while for you to see. TC: Do you make any other Cherokee arts and crafts besides the stone carving? FW: Well if I wanted to I could make some white oak baskets because I watched my mother and my grandmother do those and I know how to start from the white oak tree, to cut it down and to the splints and dye them with walnut root, yellow root, blood root and I know all of it as far as making baskets. I could do them, I don't see how my mom and grandmother used to do them all the time because there’s a lot of work in them. TC: Have you ever made one, or you just know from watching them? FW: Oh I made a couple. And it’s been probably 25 years ago I made a couple small baskets, sold them. I just lost interest in it. I know I can still do it to this day if I wanted to. TC: Do you have anything? David Brewin: You had said that you’re worried that the Cherokees would eventually cease to be. What do you recommend they do? FW: That’s a question that would be hard to answer because there’s a lot of things the Cherokee have forgotten. A lot of the traditions are not carried on like they used to be. At Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 7 one time we had medicine men around here, that could do things to heal people and we don’t have that anymore. They’re few, I mean very few and far between. I know of two. That’s it. Two real medicine men. There are some that go around and call their selves medicine men, and they’re not. DB: The other thing I was wondering when we were talking over there is what is the significance of the spider? FW: Well there is a lot of different stories that have the spider implicated in them. You know, some of the Native American people you know sort of what you’d say believe that the spider had medicine in them. And there’s a lot of beliefs too that are wrong. To me it’s just a creature that god created. That’s about it. DB: And you like the form of the spider? FW: Oh I love spiders. As a matter of fact we have the double windows in our kitchen. Regina had cleaned them one day and about a week later, you have to clean all the way up on the inside. About a week later I notice this tiny little spider up in the corner and I showed it to her. He started building it’s web inside the corner, and it started growing and I noticed it was a black widow spider. So I’d take, I’d find an ant and put it in between the two windows, close the window and an hour or so later the ant would end up in the web. I fed it probably about 15 times, went from little ants to big mealers and that thing growed probably about 10 times the size it was whenever I first saw it. Then one day it was gone. And the thing I can’t figure out is how it go out from between those two windows because they are sealed all the way around. So you know an insect such as a spider is smart. A lot of people don’t give the credit to a bear. A bear sometimes is smarter than a human. DB: I know that to be true. FW: They know how to live with the land such as the Cherokees used to. The Cherokees nowadays want to live off the land when they should be living with it. DB: Would you like to see a movement where Cherokee went back and was living off the land, with the land and in the land. FW: That’ll never happen, there’s too much money going around here. It’s all it’s about anymore is money. I’ve had people tell me you know if you do this you do that, you could be rich. I don’t want to be rich. I want to be able to support my family and be happy, and when I’m the happiest is when we’re back in the mountains looking for stone or out on the river bank, where there’s nobody else around, fishing, or just walking in the woods, that’s when I’m happiest, away from everybody else. DB: Well you want to set up for the demonstration part now? TC: Do you have anything else? Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 8 FW: That’s it. END OF TAPE ONE FRED WILNOTY INTERVIEW START OF TAPE TWO FRED WILNOTY INTERVIEW Showing stone that fits in hand about 5 or 6 inches. Shape is circular. Spider legs are formed into 5 segments. Fred has a piece of material covering his right index finger and is using a chisel to carve out stone. Every once in awhile he dumps out a little pile of shaved rock. DB: Alright now, so could you tell me about marking the legs out and the FW: When I mark them out I mark them out to where it will have five segments on the legs. And whenever I put back in far enough with this chisel here, get in deep enough then I’ll start cutting in behind them, all the way up to here. Before I do any further back in there I’ll have to take and round the top part off close to the body. And as you can see this stone isn't too soft. DB: And that is steatite right there is that right? FW: Yeah. DB: Where do you usually find steatite? FW: There’s several different places back in the mountains that my dad used to go and get it. So I just go and I’ll walk around and see if I can find the places that he used to get it from. DB: Is it like laying on the ground or is it in? FW: Sometimes you can find it laying right on top of the ground after a real hard rain. There’s several people around town that does the same thing. They’ll go and look for it. It’s like I stated earlier, you know sometimes you can find maybe 2 or 3 or 4 pounds of it all day of walking. And sometimes it’s a true blessing when you come across 20 or 30, 40 pounds of it such as I found one piece it’s been a couple years ago it weighed 25 pounds, but by the time I cleaned it up it was 15 pounds. DB: What do you mean clean it up, like other kinds of stuff on it that you can’t use? Showing a rock not cleaned up and has crystals in it. FW: Such as these quartz crystals, I usually take them out. And then sometimes like on this piece here, I implicated these crystals here, like in the eye of the owl and the beak of the owl. Showing a small owl necklace about 3 inches long. He has worked with the Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 9 crystals for eye and beak of owl. Did you get that? It’s just… if I look at something and see it I’ll start. Like on this piece here, Showing ceremonial pipe that is carved out as a raven. Crystals have been kept in three places around the piece. One wing is carved coming around to the front and touching a crystal. I’ll come out, when I cleaned it up it had this real pretty quartz crystal there, and one there and one on the bottom. And it was shaped that way pointing to the back of the piece after getting all the flaws off it, the cracks. So I just decided I would to with that and make myself a ceremonial pipe. Which I’ve been working on that piece for over a year now and still haven’t got it done. DB: Is it something that you just work on in your spare time since you’re going to keep it for yourself? FW: Yeah, I’m hoping to be able to keep it for myself. These days and times there are sometimes you might need the money and if somebody offers the right price I might have to let it go. I’m hoping that I don’t have to because I’d love to be able to keep that for myself. DB: What kind of chisel are you using, can I get a picture of that? Chisel is about 4 inches long with wooden handle, with metal part about and inch or a little more. End of chisel is small and flat. FW: That’s an authentic John Julius Wilnoty made chisel. DB: What did he use to make it with? FW: It was, if I’m not mistaken it was a steel spring of some sort. But it holds the edge real good so I don’t have to sharpen it as much. This piece here was made from a file, if you look at it real close right here it still got the file marks on it. Where he cut it down. This chisel is a piece of metal sticking out of a wooden handle. Blade looks like a small knife point. These right here is something he just took and glued some handles on a piece of steel and cut it down and made the blades. Metal handle with a blade on end that looks like a partial hook in that it does not come all the way down, but is more like a sideways U shape with a point on the end. That’s an old silverware handle he took and put in a piece of steel from something sharpened it up those work pretty good. Got another he made all these right here he’s made and gave to me. Since he doesn’t carve anymore, he figured that somebody needed to use them. I’ve heard people talk about how they do a carving in 2 or 3 hours. Like I was doing a demonstration for [David] Smith at Bearmeats Indian Den and there was this guy come by and he sees a piece of my artwork and he says he could do it in 2 hours. Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 10 And I told him I’d like to see that because everything that I do is hand carved. And as you can see it’s going to take a lot longer that 2 or 3 hours to do this. DB: Before the Cherokee got the steel tools how would they make these carvings? FW: They used bone and like quartz or flint. Flint will cut this, only thing is it chips out. So the thicker the flint would be the longer the tool would last. You can always resharpen a piece of flint. DB: Have you ever tried any of that with flint? FW: Yeah. And also too, some of the sharpest and best chisels I believe the Cherokees used was I believe the beaver the beaver teeth. Because I’ve seen several of those chisels and I’ve got some of the teeth and I was planning on doing some chisels out of, maybe put them inside a piece of deer antler for the handle and then you sharpen the teeth down a little bit sharper. Now I know it cuts stone because I’ve already tried one of them out just to see if it would cut it and that would be a traditional Cherokee chisel there. Because as you know the beaver was here until it was hunted out and they brought some back in several years back. DB: Do you always have the patience to do this? FW: No, I always wanted to be able to do the carvings my dad done, but you know as you look at all the different artists here, they each have their own style. And it does take patience. It took me several years to get the patience. DB: I’m going to step over here and get one of your dad’s carvings. FW: I wish Dad could have been with us. The thing is is he’s got that medical issues. He doesn’t like to leave his house whenever it’s hot. DB: It makes the narcolepsy worse. FW: Yeah, he has his narcolepsy spells and he don’t like to be out whenever that happens. I understand that. I basically let him do whatever he wants to do and if he feels like going somewhere I’ll take him. Which is very seldom he does. DB: How old is your dad? FW: 71 he turned 71 April the 10th. DB: Somebody told me one time that he would have dreams when have would have these narcoleptic seizures and then draw, come out with these creatures. Is there any truth to that? Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 11 FW: Well you know his dreams was whenever he was asleep when he’d go to bed at night he’d have dreams and he’d see things such as that pipe. He would put that in the stone. DB: Do you remember when he did that pipe? Showing pipe that is about 5 or 6 inches long. It is brown in color and is an imaginary animal lying down. The bowl of the pipe is on the animals back. The animal has a stubby tail and large, rounded teeth. The piece is fairly detailed with each little finger or claw carved out and big round eyes on the sides. There is a squarish wooden pipe coming out of the back of the animal below its tail. I can’t see the whole of the pipe. FW: I can remember, but I couldn’t, I know he done it because I saw it while he was working on it. Thing is I couldn’t tell you how long it’s been or when the date was he done it. DB: What’s the main difference in his carving style and your carving style? FW: Well if you look at his, his is real abstract, mine is too, but… the artwork speaks for itself as far as the difference goes. Sometimes whenever I’m working I’ll have maybe 6 or 8 different pieces that I’ll start. And when I get tired of working on one I’ll pick up another and work on it. That’s why sometimes it takes me a good while to get a piece finished. I got several pieces at the house that I’ve been working on for I’d say, anywhere from a year to a year and a half and they’re not done yet. It may take that long or longer before I get them finished. DB: So you got a lot of pieces in progress, is that how you like to work? FW: Well I like to get several of them going at least. I believe the most I had going at one time is like 15. But I never get them all finished at once. DB: This is a full time job for you is that right? FW: This is what I do. I have to be there to make sure my dads taken care of. I can sit there at my house and work out behind the house, or even go in and sit at my kitchen table and work. My beautiful wife Regina she don’t fuss about it. She cleans up my mess and don’t complain. I try not to make it too rough on her though. I’ll go out behind the house and work. DB: I guess with this you don’t need a real workshop kind of place, just wherever you take a notion to work you can work. FW: Yeah, as long as you go the tools with you. As you can see it gets pretty messy. I should have this cut out like this about, completely cut out from under the body in between his fangs, all in between each and every one of them and just have the base there with the spider sitting on it. While I was outside taking a break awhile ago Regina was Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 12 telling me that there is an old Cherokee legend of the spider how it carried fire across the river to the Cherokee people. There’s so many different stories about the spider that you know some of them were made for tourists. It’s mostly like you hear nowadays. I like carving little insects or spiders something like that because there’s not too many people that do that. And you can also you know hear the tales of the spiders and the beetles. DB: Watching you work I can see where it is you just it’s got to be something you really want do. Doesn’t take a lot of tools. FW: Well as you can see that’s flat right there and you can see the file marks right there, filed down flat. Have to buy me some more files because those are getting dull. Speaking of the bottom of the spider he is working on. Takes a flat file and scrapes it against the bottom which is completely flat. DB: Is that how you got that piece so flat, is just filing it? FW: Filing away. I’ll use that one right there. Taking a rounded file and poking it through a hole and turning it in the ceremonial pipe mentioned earlier that he is hoping to keep. Like on this piece right here, when I get that hole big enough I’ll run that right through it. I had a crystal right there, but it was an ugly crystal so I gouged it out and decided I’d put that hole all the way through and I done it with these chisels. Just twisting it round and around until I got it through. And I had a flaw in the stone right there. The only thing I like to do too, when I get a piece like that I’ll soak it in water and then lay it out and let it dry and it’ll show whenever there’s a crack and then I’ll take and knock it off. That way you end up with one good solid piece. DB: And you talked about your dad telling you to look at the piece and you look at the piece until you see what’s in there. Can you talk a little bit more about that it’s fascinating to me. I’ve heard other carvers talk about it. FW: Well that’s like this piece here, I took it with me one day to the old mill I’d set up over there to do a demonstration. Picks up the earlier mentioned rock that is uncleaned. He takes the rounded file and starts filing away at the rock. You can look at that piece all day long and you won’t see a rock, with a piece of quartz crystal sticking out of it. If you take start cutting like down, taking away the rough edges, once you get that piece cleaned up all the way, you can study it. It might take you 15, 20 minutes you might see something that’s there. But you got to take away the rough in order to see what’s in there. Such as this piece here, the earlier mentioned raven pipe, whenever I got it cleaned up and made sure there wasn’t no cracks in it. I left the crystals in it there because I like the smoky quartz crystals and those are pretty clear there. But I studied it, looked at it and I seen that ravens head coming out. So that’s where I started, his wing coming down touching the crystal. And you know, I studied it some more, didn’t see nothing else in it, so I laid it down and I haven’t done anything else. Until I see what’s in there it’s the way it’s going to stay. It appears that about half of the pipe is done and the other half is unfinished, just cleaned up. Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 13 This piece here, the piece that he is working on. I just got the urge to do a spider, I felt like that’s what it was going to be. I looked at it and added a little dip right there, the top center I studied it, It cleaned up to be a real nice piece. I thought it’d make a real nice spider so. I marked his legs out to where it looked like he was crawling around and I went to cutting on it. These chisels like this work good for drills too, hand drill. Taking chisel and spinning it around under the legs. DB: You say that’s what you use those little screw drivers for, kind of the same way? FW: It’s like on this raven here. Taking small drill bit and poking, turning it into a nose hole. All I’ll do is right there it’s going to be one of his nose holes in his beak. It’s the holes when I get them in there I can take a piece like, or one of the tools like that and you’ve got the raven’s nose holes. Taking the curved knife chisel mentioned earlier with the silverware handle and poking nose holes into the raven’s beak. DB: How old is your son that carves? FW: He’s 20. And my youngest one he’s 15. DB: Does he carve? FW: He’ll try every now and then. He picks up a piece and he’ll work on it. He’s more interested in girls right now I believe than anything. DB: Understandable. FW: He just he loses interest in things too easy right now. But my oldest one he’ll pick up a piece and he’ll work on it for a couple of hours and he’ll tell me he’s going to get it done. But he’s working too for tribal bingo now. He was working at the casino and he shifted jobs. When he’s got spare time he’ll work on something. Just to bring in a little extra money because he’s trying to get moved in to his own place. Nowadays and times it’s hard to find a kid who wants to do that on their own. DB: How old were you when you started? FW: 15. I started trying when I was like about 13, 14 and just like my youngest son I’d pick up a piece and try something and then I’d throw it down and get frustrated with it. I believe I was 16, was it 15 or 16 when I’d done my first little necklace piece. Like I said earlier it wasn’t nothing. I thought the person that bought it at the time was crazy for buying it and it was only 5 dollars you know. DB: Was it like a tourist bought it from you or something like that? FW: I believe it was Tom Underwood when he was alive. I believe he only bought it to inspire me to try better. Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 14 DB: Years ago I came up here fishing and went into Medicine Man because I heard Tom knew a lot about fishing, to get some advice from him and I saw that Eagle dancer in there. Amazing piece of work, whatever happened to that? FW: Mike Abram has it at the Cherokee Heritage Museum and Gallery. DB: Okay. Where is that? FW: It’s up here at Saunooke Village. He has a lot of nice artwork in there too up in the gallery part. He’s got a gift shop downstairs and upstairs is a gallery. He has pieces of my dad’s a few of mine and he’s got pieces of Carloid or Lloyd Carl Owl, [inaudible] Owl[inaudible] John Grant, probably [Pete Long] there are a bunch in there. DB: What other carvings are you working on right now at your house? FW: Well you’ve seen that totem over there. DB: Mhmm Showing totem about 20 inches high. Detailed carving, patterns and animals. The bottom is a man, the middle a bird with a large tall beak and the top with an animal of some sort. The man is squatting with one hand reaching behind him and the other putting a piece of a bear into his mouth. The bear’s head, body and feet are lying in front of him. FW: Now that piece right there my dad done I believe back in the early to late 70’s. I’ve got a piece that’s pretty close to that size and height but it’s a little bit thicker and I’ve been working on that for a couple of years and still haven’t got it finished. DB: What’s the difference in carving like a big piece like that as opposed to a smaller one? FW: There’s a big difference in doing something like that and doing a smaller piece because you’ve got more to handle on the turn. That right there is a real nice piece and I know Dad done that probably in the early 70’s because that stone right there The totem has shiny flakes in it he used to go get I believe down there in Robbinsville I believe that’s where that come from DB: And that’s steatite too. FW: Yeah, as you can see it’s got the little shiny flakes in it. This don’t and that don’t. Speaking of the necklace and pipe he has brought with him. This stone here can’t see where he is pointing but I am thinking he is talking about his own pieces. is a better quality and sometimes he done pieces out of that stone there because it’s all he had, all he could find. Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 15 DB: Is it hard to carve that kind of stone with those shiny flakes in it. FW: It’ll dull your chisels a lot quicker. I’ve tried to get it. I told him I’d give him one of those big pieces I got if he’d get back into carving but he… DB: He doesn’t carve at all? FW: He’s tried, he’s picked up some pieces and started them lay them down, I’m over there making sure he’s taking his medication he’ll say if you want that take it. Put it up. So I’ve got several pieces that he’s started over in my place. DB: Will you finish ‘em? FW: It’s hard to say I believe, if I leave them like they are they’ll always be his, but if I was to touch it and start finishing it up it wouldn’t be his, it would be ours. DB: What’s the biggest piece you ever carved? FW: I've got one that is what is it 56 pounds that I started on last year. My dad had started an Eagle dancer that had both wings up in the air back when he done the one for Tom Underwood. And it was out of the same piece of cherry, wild cherry that he’d done the other out of and he left it in his old workshop for I guess 25 years, he started it, had it shaped up and never finished it. And one day I was with him and we were talking and I seen it standing back in the corner with dust all over it, had the spider webs on it and I asked him I said Dad what are you going to with that carving. He said nothing, he said if you want it you can have it. So I took it home with me and one of my friends who’s past on now was there visiting one day and he’s like hey there’s an eagle dancer he said where did you get that. I said Dad gave it to me, he’s like, why don’t you finish it up and I’ll buy it from you. And told him I said well let me think about it, I’ll let you know here later on. I got to talking to Dad about it, told him I thought it would be fair if I did finish it let Dad get half of it. And Dad told me, ohhh what are you thinking about selling it to him for and I told him I don’t know. I said well you’re not carving no more and as much publicity as you’ve had, I said it should be worth something. So I called the guy up and I told him to make me an offer. He made me an offer I couldn’t refuse, so I finished it and he paid us for it and I gave Dad half the money which Dad said that was the most money he’d ever made off of one piece. And I even took part of what I had and give to my mom. She likes spending money. Dad took his part and hid it. So she wouldn’t spend it. DB: [laugh] What’s the difference in the tools when you’re carving a small piece and a big piece? FW: There’s not no difference. I’ve got some chisels that have a little longer blade to them for getting way down into a big piece but I hardly ever use them because I’m mostly working on pieces like this. the spider he is working on. DB: Is there ever a time when you use a mallet? Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 16 FW: Oh yeah, on the big pieces because if it’s got crystals in it such as the 25 pound piece I found a couple years ago, I take one of my bigger chisels and a mallet and knock them crystals off. And if I see something there as I’m doing that I’ll go ahead and start shaping it up a little bit. But mostly the mallet, the chisels like that go to work on wood and I’m not too much of a wood carver, I do some wood carving but I prefer working in the stone. That chisels dull already. The chisel he has been using on the spider. DB: Before I forget I notice the pipe in the gallery there it has a leather wrapping on the stem. Do you do the leather too? FW: I do from start to finish everything just like this piece here, the ceremonial raven pipe. He puts stem on and shows how the bottom is marked with a notch chipped out of the wood. I feel the stem always mark it on the bottom for whenever I start sewing the leather that’s where I start from and I’ll sew it all the way down to the end as you can see on that piece there. Picks up finished pipe and shows that the stem is encased with leather. Can you hold that piece up and show me the seam on it the leather? FW: Get some dust on it. That needs to be tightened up. As you can see from start to finish it starts all the way up there. Shows stitching on leather cover of pipe stem. And I do all the leather on all my stems myself. DB: What material do you use to stitch with? FW: Just a needle and sinew thread they make nowadays. That’s an old piece I done there. DB: When do you reckon you did that one? FW: That’s been at least 15 years ago. DB: See any difference in your style? Showing pipe that is about 3 inches long. It has a design where it meets the stem that is a pattern of circles, from there it goes up a couple of inches for the bowl and off the bowl at the top it has a piece with diamond pattern that curves around and down. Around the bowl a coil shape is etched out. Out toward the back at the bottom of the bowl a piece juts out. FW: See a big improvement. That stone it’s a… I know exactly where that stone came for. Somebody dropped that piece too because it’s got a nick in it. But I know exactly where that stone came from if you look at it real close you can see a different color in the stone and there’s only one place that stone comes from. And that was dug out of the side of a bank, I’ll have to fix that for her. Nick on the side of piece. Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 17 DB: So you can polish that nick up in there? FW: Yeah, I can fix that. It’s pretty deep nick, but I can fix something on the side of it to where it you won’t even know it happened. That stem like I said needs to be tightened up on there. That’s the one thing about using the stems you have to cure them out, let them cure out to where they are completely dry. If you don’t they’ll loosen up on you when you put them in the pipe. I had that problem on several of them. Think that they were completely dry and they need another month or two. As you can see the fangs on this spider are getting ready to take shape here. Close up shot of carving out fangs. I like to get it all carved out and then I’ll sand it down and then I’ll do all the detail work. DB: So you’ll basically get all the legs carved out and everything and then start smoothing it out and that’s when you do the final detail? FW: Yep, because if you put all the detail work on it before you sand it you’ll sand all your work away. DB: The thing I wonder sitting here watching you, you ever be carving along and all of a sudden the leg pops off or something like that? FW: That’s why you check it for cracks. That way you don’t have the problem of it breaking. I have been sitting there, you look real close, you can see that scar that starts right that and ends over here. Shows index finger with scar. It is amazing watching him that he doesn’t cut himself more often. I ran a blade completely through there to the bone. It didn’t feel too good. DB: Bet not. FW: I’m afraid to bump that table and I might knock it. How much longer do you think we’ll be at this? DB: You’re the boss. FW: About ready. DB: Like I said you’re the boss. FW: Do you think you have what you need. DB: I think so. FW: Well let’s call it quits because it’s hot. DB: I really appreciate you doing this. Fred Wilnoty Transcript April 15, 2010 Mountain Heritage Center 18 END OF TAPE TWO FRED WILNOTY INTERVIEW
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